question about Cycle (the product)

[orthikon]

The LFS guy told me to add 20 mL a day versus the 10 mL every 7 days then 5 mL every week for maintenance (what is written on the product, I hope that I am not misiinterpretting it). That dosage is A LOT more than what is written. I read that too muhc nitrates (which is the product that these bacteria produce) is toxic so I'm a bit concerned about putting in too muhc product

Anyone have used this product before?

Thanks.

[sublime1184]

I have never used it but have heard many awful things about Cycle. Not harmful to your tank awful but useless awful. Its like adding water to your tank, not much will change. Besides, I don't like to add chemicals to my tank if there is a natural solution such as water changes. The best way to lower nitrates is to do frequent water changes and test your levels.

[reignman40]

From everyone I've talked to on various boards and my own experience the only "chemicle" that will help a cycle is Bio-Spira. (Which is amazing). Nothing else is of any use to put it bluntly.

Curtis

[orthikon]

Well as of Saturday my friend gave me his tank and I did not know anytihng about fish.

I had to transport it so I emptied the water and cleaned the tank. Then I read about cycling and fishless cycling too and heard people mention Biospora and Cycle. So I just filled the tank up with dechlorinated water and added Cycle (as this would jump start the bacteria colonies).

Since this is my first tank it I didn't seem to be confident enough to do a fishless cycle.

I guess I'll just have to monitor the ammonia, ntirite and nitrate levels other than that should I do anything else?

[reignman40]

If you can add Bio-Spira right away. It will cycle the tank in 2-7 days and you can add your full bioload of fish right away.

Otherwise if you don't use Bio-Spira you are looking at 25-50% water changes daily until the cycle completes. (That is if you have fish in there)

Curtis

[alabaster]

Unless you have fish in the tank, you can't cycle without ammonia. So, if you don't have fish, do some research and do a fishless cycle using ammonia. If you do have fish in the aquarium, test the water frequently and do water changes as needed to keep ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate at good levels. Once the tank is cycled, reduce water changes to about 20%-35% per week or more depending on your stocking levels. After the cycle is definately complete, it's only necessary to test for nitrate, as the ammonia and nitrite levels should both be 0 ppm at all times. Good luck!

[Kasakato]

Well as of Saturday my friend gave me his tank and I did not know anytihng about fish.

I had to transport it so I emptied the water and cleaned the tank. Then I read about cycling and fishless cycling too and heard people mention Biospora and Cycle. So I just filled the tank up with dechlorinated water and added Cycle (as this would jump start the bacteria colonies).

Since this is my first tank it I didn't seem to be confident enough to do a fishless cycle.

I guess I'll just have to monitor the ammonia, ntirite and nitrate levels other than that should I do anything else?

Fishless cycles are actually eaiser than anything else. You do less water changes, less testing, etc. Also most people only cycle once. This is because once you have a tank going you can just take some filter media from that tank and toss it into the new filter. This is just like Bio Spira, except its free.

Do you have fish in there now? If not I would drop the cycle and do a fishless. If you already do, try to get some Bio Spira, and get the bucket ready for daily use.

[JSchmidt]

In my opinion, Cycle = junk. If it has any live bacteria at all, they aren't the same ones that will permanently serve as your biofilter, so they'll just compete with the 'good' bacteria for food. A total waste of $$, I think.

Jim

[RTR]

And the product mentioned is notorious for giving massive nitrate readings - from the product itself, not because it has cycled the tank.

[sublime1184]

And the product mentioned is notorious for giving massive nitrate readings - from the product itself, not because it has cycled the tank.

Oh! that is a great piece of information to know...another reason adds to the list...thanks!

[orthikon]

I already have fish in the tank since I was under the impression that Cycle and Bio spora are similiar products (of similiar effectivity) well now I know better.

Here's was the LFS's suggestion:
-Add 20mL of cycle daily.
-Do not do water changes until a month --> i was really concerned about this because of the reports of cycle's variable potency. my fish would then be swimming in an ammonia pool
-Have chemical levels checked after a week.

There were a couple of posts on the cycle sticky that the bacteria actually consumes ammonia but then has a high amount of nitrates later on.

So this is my plan:

1) Do 25% water chagnes daily.
2) Test for ammonia, nitrites daily after the water changes.
3) Add 10 mL of cycle daily. LFS swears by this product and acutally recommends 20mL daily.

*IF* the product indeed adds bacteria would the daily water change inhibit the growth of the colony? I've read contrasting opinions on this as the colony seems to stay in the filter medium i.e. not affected by water changes and the other opinion to the contrary.

Also the LFS suggested that nitrates are not important since I don't have plants but I've read information that high levels of nitrates are toxic to fish (that is why regular water changes are necessary after cycling to reduce nitrite levels). Opinions on this?

So what's everyone's take on this?

[mishi8]

*IF* the product indeed adds bacteria would the daily water change inhibit the growth of the colony? I've read contrasting opinions on this as the colony seems to stay in the filter medium i.e. not affected by water changes and the other opinion to the contrary.

Also the LFS suggested that nitrates are not important since I don't have plants but I've read information that high levels of nitrates are toxic to fish (that is why regular water changes are necessary after cycling to reduce nitrite levels). Opinions on this?

So what's everyone's take on this?

If Cycle actually adds viable bacteria, it's not the correct bacteria (Cycle and BioSpira are not similar.) Based on my experience, I think Cycle can actually slow down the cycling process. If you want to develop the bacteria colonies quickly, then try BioSpira. The largest concentration of bacteria will be in your filter, because the media has a large surface area for colonization, plus a good flow of oxygenated water. Nitrates are of concern when they go higher than 20-40 ppm. In an unplanted tank, water changes are the only safe way to reduce them.

Since you're cycling with fish, be prepared to do frequent water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite in a safe range.

[TKOS]

Add cycle if you want but don't rely on it. Don't set up a specific waterchange level either. Keeping ammonia below 2ppm and nirites below 0.25ppm is what you need to do. A 10% water change may accomplish that 1 day and it may take a 75% the next day. It will take about 3-4 weks to cycle the tank, usually. The larger water changes dialy are a greta thing as you want your change water and tank water to be very similar in paramters. Do not wait a month to change water, your LFS seems to now very little about keeping fish so I would avoid getting into discussions with them. Remeber they are trying to sell you a product. If I added a tsp of kool aid to my tank each week and my fish didn't die I could try to tell you the best thing to do was add kool aid but you would see that as silly. Well just because they add cycle and their fish don't die doesn't mean the cycle is helping.

Good luck

[TKOS]

Oh and once things settle out ina couple of weeks remeber that adding any new fish will create a bump in the cycle.

And weekly water changes once the cycle is complete is a very good idea. Most people around here strive for 30-50% weekly. Some more some less.

[JSchmidt]

3) Add 10 mL of cycle daily. LFS swears by this product and acutally recommends 20mL daily.


So what's everyone's take on this?

My question to you: who is trying to give you good advice, expecting nothing in return, and who is trying to sell you a product? Consider that, read every post you can find on Cycle (esp. contrasting it with BioSpira, which really DOES help cycle the tank) and then make your decision.

Good luck!

Jim

[orthikon]

Got from Petco for their free water testing and ammonia was between .25 - .5. I am confused about the units as it said ppm and mg/L is the same scale. Are these units equivalent?

I forgot the number for the nitrites but it was on the second block from zero. Will come back tomorrow for another free test (yay!). Then report on the numbers this time I will pay attention.

TKOS: I understand what you mean by not settling on a fixed amount of water for changing.

It has been only 4 days but how does the .25-.5 numbers for ammonia sound?

[JSchmidt]

Yes, ppm and mg/l are the same. Just keep in mind that ammonia and nitrites should not exceed .5 ppm (or mg/l). If they get close, it's time for a water change. If you water measures .5 ppm AFTER a water change, it's time to step up the volume or frequency of the changes.

Good luck,
Jim

[zazz]

It has been only 4 days but how does the .25-.5 numbers for ammonia sound?
Sounds like good time to change some water.
Changing the water, by the way, will Not significantly reduce the bacteria colonies you are developing.
SImply put: There are bacteria who eat ammonia and excrete nitrites. Then there are bacteria who feed on nitrites and excrete nitrates.
So, you will see ammonia in your tank until the first colony is established ( keep changing water to lower the ammonia for the fish's sake)
Then, you will begin to get readings of nitrites. again keep changing water.
Eventually, you will stop seeing any nitrites. that means your tank has 'cycled':both types of bacteria are in there in sufficient numbers.
This will indeed leave you with nitrates which are Less toxic to fish and can be kept to safe levels with weekly water changes in an unplanted, reasonaly stocked tank.
SO, as you can see, while there will be nitrates accumulating in your tank, the bacteria dont Create them out of nothing... The amount of ntrates that are prodused is limited by the amount of ammonia thatis 'fed'.
So You don't need to fear adding Bio Spira. I havent used it but i hear from Very reputable sources that it actually is apropriate live bacteria ( if handled properly) and it will be Very good for your fish to get the ammonia/nitrite eating bacteria established asap.
Also, if you can get your own test kit, you will be very glad you did.
Have fun!

[zazz]

Oh I forgot to say. I wouldnt listen to the lsf guy anymore if i were you either. at least not without checking all he says elsewhere.
Also, What are you using for a water dechlorinator?

[orthikon]

I am using Amquel for dechlorinator and NovAqua for water conditioner.

The .25 -.5 ppm reading was immediately after a 25% water change. I just did a 37.5% water change today. Tomorrow I'll see what the levels are (don't have a kit yet). Judging by the those levels immediately after a water change I plan to do it every 12 hrs.

[mishi8]

Why are you using both products? Amquel is both a dechlorinator and conditioner. Do you have chloramine treated tap water? If so, that will be adding ammonia to your tank with every water change...definitely need a conditioner like Amquel or Prime to properly decloraminate your water. Eventually, your biofilter will be developed enough to deal with all the ammonia, but if there's chloramine in the tap water, you would want to continue to use Amquel or Prime.

[TKOS]

finding out what is in your water is a good idea. You will either have chlorine or chloramine. A call to the water department will tell you. As was mentioned chloramine needs a special conditoner that not only breaks the bond and takes care of the chlorine but also detoxifies the ammonia. Amquel and Prime are pretty much it. If you just have chlorine than any dechlorinator will work fine, so no need to spend a lot. And one conditioner is fine.

If you are using Amquel then as I said it also detoxifies the ammonia into ammonium. This will often still show up on certain water tests as ammonia but isn't toxic to the fish so I wouldn't worry as much about the ammonia reading as the nitrite reading at this point.

Whenever there is an ammonia or nitrite reading it is due to the fact that the bacteria haven't been able to multiply quick enough to use the excess, they are using some but not all. And they can only grow so fast so doing water changes and keeping those levels low won't hurt bacteria grow but will help the fish.

[orthikon]

Okay got my test kit (Tetratest Laborett). Ammonia read 0, nitrite < 0.3 pH 8.0. For the last two days I've been doing 1/3rd water changes every 12 hours. Note that I have been using Cycle I'm not sure what conclusion I can draw from that since the tank has only been up for 6 days and I've been doing water changes often. For now I'll stop using Cycle since I already have good numbers.

From the looks of those numbers looks like I can try every 2 days but i still have to test daily to monitor the water chemistry. I would like to have your opinion on these readings.

mishi8: the LFS recommended me those products at the time I bought them I didn't know anything (ingorance is bliss :)). Novaqua removes chlorine, adds fish slime and electrolytes.

TIA (thanks in advance)

[mishi8]

Looks to me like your LFS is trying to get as much money out of you as they can. It's debatable whether any conditioner really does much for a fish's slime coat, a health fish shouldn't need any help with that at all. Amquel is all you need. So, do you have chloramine treated water?

I'm surprised that you're getting any nitrite reading at 6 days. I doubt that cycle has made a dent in your levels. Remind me, did you seed the tank with gravel or media from an established tank?

[orthikon]

Yes I did but I cleaned it out VERY WELL so any of those bacteria must have died. I also did the same thing to the filter. I knew NOTHING about fish at that time and I was under the impression was dirty water = bad water.

What do you mean by "surprised that you're getting any nitrite reading at 6 days"?

What levels are the norm for a fishy cycle at this time?

edit: I haven't called my water company yet to ask whether water has chloramine.

Are there any adverse effects if I am using Amquel and the water does not have chloramine?

[orthikon]

If you are using Amquel then as I said it also detoxifies the ammonia into ammonium. This will often still show up on certain water tests as ammonia but isn't toxic to the fish so I wouldn't worry as much about the ammonia reading as the nitrite reading at this point.

So the 0 levels of ammonia that I just tested could be because of Amquel and not actually bacteria?

[mishi8]

Yes I did but I cleaned it out VERY WELL so any of those bacteria must have died. I also did the same thing to the filter. I knew NOTHING about fish at that time and I was under the impression was dirty water = bad water.

You're right, dirty water is not what you want to add, it wouldn't add much in the way of bacteria to your tank anyway. Adding just the media and/or gravel from a source that you trust is a great way of speeding up or eliminating the cycle.


What do you mean by "surprised that you're getting any nitrite reading at 6 days"?

The ammonia eating bacteria don't typically develop that quickly, unless you've seeded the tank, or have added beneficial bacteria. It is possible that "Cycle" is helping in that regard, but my understanding is that the bacteria it introduces is not completely the correct ones, ie: it might add the right bacteria to consume ammonia, but not to consume nitrite. The ammonia eating bacteria will create nitrite and then another bacteria develops to eat nitrite, creating nitrates.


What levels are the norm for a fishy cycle at this time?

You'd likely only be detecting rising levels of ammonia now (it would rise faster if you're adding ammonia through your tap water.) You will see nitrites rise as the ammonia levels go down. The peak of nitrites usually takes longer than ammonia. The length of time to cycle can be a month or longer. Less with a seeded tank.


edit: I haven't called my water company yet to ask whether water has chloramine.

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?


Are there any adverse effects if I am using Amquel and the water does not have chloramine?

Nope.


So the 0 levels of ammonia that I just tested could be because of Amquel and not actually bacteria?

Yes, it could, depending on the type of test you use.

[orthikon]

A little background info may help. A friend gave me this tank with 4 fish: 2 glass catfish, 1 blackskirt tetra and a syno eureptus catfish. I had to transport it so I emptied the water. The next day I proceeded to clean the tank THOROUGHLY (the bacteria must have died), added treated tap water, the fish then Cycle. I also changed the filter media to a brand new one. Now I could have saved myself time by not doing those but the water was VERY cloudy and I did not anything at that time.



The ammonia eating bacteria don't typically develop that quickly, unless you've seeded the tank, or have added beneficial bacteria. It is possible that "Cycle" is helping in that regard, but my understanding is that the bacteria it introduces is not completely the correct ones, ie: it might add the right bacteria to consume ammonia, but not to consume nitrite. The ammonia eating bacteria will create nitrite and then another bacteria develops to eat nitrite, creating nitrates.


So what could be the cause be the cause of my low levels of ammonia and low levels of nitrite???



You'd likely only be detecting rising levels of ammonia now (it would rise faster if you're adding ammonia through your tap water.) You will see nitrites rise as the ammonia levels go down. The peak of nitrites usually takes longer than ammonia. The length of time to cycle can be a month or longer. Less with a seeded tank.


Okay so the nitrite levels are expected to be low at this stage and rising later o right?



Have you tested your tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?


Yes I have. Untreated and treated with Amquel, they read the same as tank water. 0 ppm ammonia and <0.3 ppl nitrite. I have not tested for nitrates since the test kit did not come with it.



Yes, it could, depending on the type of test you use.[

I am using a salicylate test kit, the ones with more than one reagent. It is the Tetratest Laborett. I'm rather unhappy with the scale but that's in another thread.

http://www.tetra-fish.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=242

[TorturedSOUL]

your tank is probably cycling. If you went to petco and had ammonia and now have nitrites, it means you have a working bacterial filter. Just monitor the conditions and keep up water changes (every 12 hours is a little agro IMO).

[wiccankillilove]

:pc: we tried cycle and it is useless then we found biozyme and it is working amazingly we also have fish in our tank and we put in prime wich detoxifies ammonia,nitrite,nitrate and provides a slimecoat for the fish so they can live in the tank even with high levels of any of these we even have fry in our tank and the ammonia is spiked real high and they are all fine just my opinion but it has worked great for our 20 gallon cycle.

[Kasakato]

:pc: we tried cycle and it is useless then we found biozyme and it is working amazingly we also have fish in our tank and we put in prime wich detoxifies ammonia,nitrite,nitrate and provides a slimecoat for the fish so they can live in the tank even with high levels of any of these we even have fry in our tank and the ammonia is spiked real high and they are all fine just my opinion but it has worked great for our 20 gallon cycle.
Prime doesnt do that. No slime coat, no protection. It may make the ammonia safe, but wont do anything for anything else. you need to be doing water changes no matter what.

[orthikon]

Update:

Called water company and they only use naturally occuring chlorine however during summer months they use a source which uses chloramine.

I've been testing (using salicylate test kit) since thursday and I got 0 for ammonia and <.3 for nitrite. Haven't change water since today since I was reading 0.

Today however I went to Petco and had my water tested (they use test strips).

Ammonia .25
nitrite 0
nitrate 20

i'm a little baffled by these results. i've narrowed it down to three possibilities

1) Could it be that the test strips isn't giving correct readings since I am using Amquel (w/c i've read decomposes chloramine to chlorine and ammonia)? I think this is not the case since I haven't changed the water since wednesday, which was the last time I used Amquel.

If this is not the case then how come my nitrite readings are 0 and ammonia .25? The reason could be possibility #2 and/or #3

2) Is my testing equipment strips inaccurate? see my separate post for more details.

edit: It's hard to distingguish from 0 to .25. However like I said above nitrite reading are 0 and <.3 from LFS and my test kit so the Ammonia levels should be 0 already at this point in the cycle
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56116

3) Is the bacteria that Cycle added insufficient/incorrect?

[JSchmidt]

If you've used Amquel, I'd trust your salicylate test results. Test strips use the Nessler method and there is a possibility they're reading complexed ammonia. More likely, the LFS's strips are just wrong. For ammonia testing, a good salicylate kit, used correctly, is hard to top... especially if Amquel has been used.

Jim

[orthikon]

Assuming my testing kit is reading accurately then I would be lead to the conclusion that Cycle works.

A question to those that have used Cycle and failed with it: How much of it are you adding? The LFS where I got it from recommened 20mL daily. I added 10mL daily which is a lot more than the recommended dosage (10 mL every week for first two weeks then 5mL after that).

So the reason that It's not working could be that the recommended amount in the package is not sufficient.

Any other ideas?

[Rich Porter]

Despite the horrible opinions of the product Cycle through out this thread, I have to say that when I started my first aquarium and used it, it worked great. I've since tried other products that speed up the biological cycle, but Cycle did the job and it did it well.

For money's sake, try the other products that have been advised. But if you already have the bottle of Cycle don't be afraid to use it.

[LongTime]

Prime doesnt do that. No slime coat, no protection. It may make the ammonia safe, but wont do anything for anything else. you need to be doing water changes no matter what.

I agree that no matter what you use, you still have to do water changes.

This is the statement seachem makes about Prime from
http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/Prime.html
there is a link to FAQ.

"Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels.Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water."