Moving from 10g to 36g...bacteria Question

[ronfl]

I had a small 15g high tank that sprung a leak near the top and was just old and unatractive. All the fish but one has died over the last few months (I've wanted to replace the tank) but I kept the tank running to keep the bacteria alive in the gravel (undergravel filter with lift tube and penquin bio wheel).

I dipped the water out of the old unit until it was just gravel left. Then spooned the old gravel into the new tank (on top of undergravel filter), then added additional gravel. I added the old gravel to hopefully get a jump start on my cycle.

I then began adding straight tap water (have a water softener, live in FL...very hard water) into the tank. When it was full I turned on the pump to start the lift tubes running and started the new (larger) penquin bio/mech filter. At this time I added the instructed amount of water conditioner (Tetra Aqua Safe) to remove chloramine/chlorine.

Question: Since I was stupid and forgot to treat the water prior to dumping it in the tank, did this kill all the bacteria I moved over from the old gravel?

Thanks, Ron

[Kasakato]

Maybe. I use a Python and add untreated water to my tank for 5min max. You can move the whole Bio Wheel filter and fish over to the new tank now, if you keep an eye on your levels.

[Larissa]

how long was the tank without fish? If you have no fish for very long then you have no ammonia, which means that you have no food for the bacteria.

[ronfl]

The tank was never completly empty. It had 1 fish left in it. I moved that fish to the new tank and it's still alive.

[Kasakato]

Do you have a test kit?

[ronfl]

No, will get one tommorrow.

[Kasakato]

Ok, Test the water and if you have some nitrates you are ok.

[FisheyLisa]

Is the old gravel completely covered by the new? If so the bacteria will soon die, unless the undergravel filter balances this by drawing stuff (ammonia) down into the gravel.

[ronfl]

Is the old gravel completely covered by the new? If so the bacteria will soon die, unless the undergravel filter balances this by drawing stuff (ammonia) down into the gravel.

I thought I was doing the right thing by putting the old/seeded gravel on the bottom next to the filter plate.. Doh!

After added several bags of gravel on top of the old stuff, I did "mix" it up a little by pushing plastic plant bases a couple of rock features deep into the gravel which caused a cloudy mess. Do you think this was enough to keep the old stuff alive? I do have two lift tubes with bubblers in each one running. I'll get a test kit and see what I'm working with and post tomorrow what I find.

BTW, it's awesome to get such a fast and interested repsonse from this group!

Thanks, Ron

[Kasakato]

I missed that part. Some times it will live, some times it will not. You did what is called "capping" the the gravel. This means you basically chocked off the bacteria, but because you have an UGF it maybe different, which Im not sure about.

Worst case, you lost your bacteria and have to re cycle.

[ronfl]

If I did loose the bacteria, will it grow back naturally? Do I have to buy that Spiro stuff? My old tank is already empty and in the garbage. Not sure where I can get fresh, aged aquarium gravel or old filter media.

Thanks, Ron

[Kasakato]

Ya it will grow back. Its in the air. Problem is it takes up to 6 weeks, and requires daily water changes. Get that test kit and we can go from there. BTW you need one for pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. This one, if you can find it is the best: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19383;category_id=3111;pcid 1=3233;pcid2=

[ronfl]

Level update. Tank running for 2 days.

Temp: 76 F
Ph: 8.4-8.8
Amonia: 0 ppm
Nitirite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10-20 ppm

I did a range in each field where the color was above zero as I was not completely sure on the exact color to number match.

[Holly9937]

do you still have the one fish in the tank? It sounds like you didn't kill off all the bacteria :D !! I would just add the fish very slowly, like a few a week.

[ronfl]

There is still just one fish in the new tank from the old one.

Should I be concerned about the super high pH levels? Other than that it looks like the remaining levels are pretty good?

I plan on getting 2 angles, 2 dwarf gouramis, and a small schooling group.

[Kasakato]

Looks like you still are cycled. Normally a high pH is not a problem, but in your case it is! You want to get it to 7. Try letting a glass of water sit outside the tank for 24 hours then test it and post what you get. Also try to test the KH of the water.

[judgemax]

just a sid note on your stocking, angels tend to get very large and will sometimes eat smaller schooling fish! i had and angel eat all of my neons when i was a little girl!

[ronfl]

Looks like you still are cycled. Normally a high pH is not a problem, but in your case it is! You want to get it to 7. Try letting a glass of water sit outside the tank for 24 hours then test it and post what you get. Also try to test the KH of the water.

Level Update:
pH: 8.4-8.2
Amonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10-20
Temp: 76

*Tested tap water after sitting 12 hours and it reads 8.4 pH. It appears that my water supply is high or could it be that having a water softener on the house could cause this high number?

What should my options be now? Will I need to use "pH Down" with each water change? I certainly don't want to have to buy bottled water. Suggestions welcom.

Thanks, Ron

[Holly9937]

I suggest starting a thread about how to lower ph (you'll get more responses taht way, since its a new topic ;) ), there are several natural ways (as opposed to chemicals, which are not very reliable in the long run) that can lower it.

[OrionGirl]

No, you don't want to use the chemical additives. Do you know the KH? At a guess, the high pH is being caused by the water softener (it works by replacing minerals in the water, doesn't actually remove anything from the water). Is there a water tap before the softener you could use? What type of water softener is it?

For what it's worth, with UGF, the bacteria are all in the gravel. Covering the olf gravel up, so long as you don't make the substrate deep enough to completely block the water flow, is not a problem at all. The UGF works by pulling or pushing water through the gravel bed, supplying the bacteria all through the bed with food and oxygen.

[ronfl]

I just ordered a kit to check the GH/KH levels. I also spoke with my water softener company and they said soft water would not change pH levels.

I'm gonna take some water from a outside spigot that bypasses the water softener and see what the pH level is just for kicks.

As a side note I failed to mention prior that during initial tank set up, I added 3 tablespoons of aquarium salt, thinking it was a good thing...but from reading other threads here it appears I don't need to add salt unless getting rid of ich or other medical needs. Not sure if this causes any issues though, since with ongoing water changes the salt levels should decrease.

Learn something new every day.

[OrionGirl]

Nope, the salt isn't needed for day-to-day fish health. It will be removed with water changes, but it can impact pH. I'm not sure what, besides NaCl is in the 'Aquarium Salt'--if it includes any buffers it could affect pH.

[Blueiz]

Just a note on the salt thing, I know soemone is going to disagree with what I am about to say. I add one tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10 gallons of water to soften it. I have been doing this for the past 6 years and never had a problem with itharming the fish, have never had any disease at all not even ick. Fish are doing great, and they are happy. My longest lived fish (blue columbian tetra) was 5 years 3 months and 19 days. I know the age because I got him on my 20 birthday and he just died July 7

[OrionGirl]

Aquarium Salt does not soften water. Freshwater fish don't benefit from adding it--and for every person who claims their fish live longer with salt additions, there are 3-4 who get the same results without adding anything. I'm not saying adding salt does't work for some people--but it is NOT needed by the fish, and without some serious attention, can cause problems (ie, very few people who add salt have anyway of determining the salinity of the water).

[lbritish]

with UGF the method you used doesnt matter as long as you started it soon after covering it with new gravel. In normal tanks you want the old gravel on top.

In terms of the salt... you should not be adding salt to a freshwater tank imo unless you buy a salt test kit and monitor the level of salt so that it is consistent.

With a house with a water softener it varies on how you installed it. Since water softeners use a sodium or pottasium chloride based removal process you may already have salt (the sodium chloride one) in the water so this needs to be considered too. Some houses only install the softener to treat the hot water side. Others do all water in the house. Doctors generally suggest the cold be left for drinking water and cooking with or at least have one or two bypassed faucets using plain hard water instead of the treated water. In the case of fish you should use the non-treated water and run it through a RO membrane. The harder the water is the faster you will destroy the membrane though so you should get a bypass type rinse kit to clean the membrane after use.

[ronfl]

All interior water sources are run through the softner(sodium type). I do have one outside spigot that is bypased (for watering yard, plants, etc.).

I guess I can drag my 5g bucket outside and fill it up each time for water changes. Wish there were a better way.

[Kasakato]

Try using driftwood to lower pH. Or peat in the filer. search on Google for more on that. Also get the KH so we can see what the pH will do.

[Blueiz]

orion girl, why did you call me a liar? quote "Aquarium Salt does not soften water"

I use it with every water change at a rate of 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons and softens my water up. You even can use it to recharge water softner units. What basis do you have that says it will not? I have my test results to prove that it will. It is posts like this that confuse ppl, ppl posting so called facts with no scientific basis behind what they are saying.

[OrionGirl]

It's simple--there is nothing in Aquarium Salt that will remove those ions within the water to make it softer. Salt in particular will not soften water--if NaCl softened water, the ocean wouldn't be considered hard water. You want science? Okay...Try this. Test the water parameters in a glass: KH, Alkalinity, GH, pH. Add salt. dissolve. Test the same parameters again. Aquairum salt does not contain anything to reduce the dissolved minerals in the water--it just adds to them. Heck, softening water is not even a claim the product makes!

[Blueiz]

We will agree to disagree on this subject. The only thing I can tell you is my test test kit must be bad. By the way I don't appreciate how rude you are.

[minnesotagal866]

Are you sure the only faucet not hooked up to the soft water is outside? We've always had a drinking fauet with cold water in the kitchen that is hard water. Soft water tastes, well, in my experience, nasty. If there's a drinking spout in the kitchen, it's probably untreated water.

Jackie

[ronfl]

Ok, I finally got a gh/kh test kit. Here are my numbers as of this morning.

pH: 8.3
Amonia: 0
Nitirite: 0
Nitrate: 20
GH: ??
KH: 179 ppm

Not sure about the GH. The test (Aquar Pharm) says the first drop should turn orange, mine just stays clear. It never turns orange, but finally turns dark green after about 8 drops. It says clear at one drop then gradually darkens to green.

As I mentioned before, I do have a whole house water softener so I didn't expect it to be high. I test from the outside spigot, not through the softener and it turned real orange...took 14 drops to get it green, over 215 ppm. Which didn't surpise me since our FL water is very hard.

Advice or issues these numbers may have?