platy problems

[Flavius]

Not sure platies are chichlids, but I'll post here anyway. I have one male platy and 3 babies (~3.5 months old). Female died about a month ago, one baby last week. It was smaller then the other ones, weak, no appetite. Remaining babies look OK, but the adult male became very thin and skinny and developed a bent spine. They all rub their bellies to objects ocassionally, in fast and curvy moves, slightly tilted aside. No spots nor dots. Checked the disease article, bent spine points to tuberculosis, euthanasia recommended. Generally, they are active and feeding normally, I would say. Any suggestions?

[OrionGirl]

Water conditions? Temp? Goldfish and tropicals are a bad mix, simply because of different temperature and food requirements. At a guess, you'll start seeing more problems with the all the fish, especially if the tank is being kept cooler for the goldies.

[Flavius]

Temp is 75F. NH3 and NO2 are normal, but pH is a bit high. Few days after I slowly bring it down to 7.0, it jumps up to 7.6 again. So it's a constant battle against high pH. What could be the cause?

[OrionGirl]

Have you tested the tapwater? What all is in the tank? What did you use to change it? Most likey, you have hardwater with a high KH--no additive will effectively lower the pH.

You'll be better off leaving the pH alone. 7.6 is fine for most fish, and the chemical additives don't help, but rather create a yo-yo effect that is much harder on the fish than one that's slightly high.

[Flavius]

The tap water has the same parameters as stated above. I boil the water and use conditioner before changing it. I will get a hardness test too.

On the other hand I just realized my tank might got infected with Hemorrhagic Septicemia or Enteric Red Mouth by a siamese shark I added last week. It died 14 hours later and it looked very much like the Danio Zebra in the pic (Enteric Red Mouth), internal bleeding, mouth wide open:

http://www.fishpalace.org/Disease.html

Few days later the other shark developed similar simptoms, but some salt helped, it started to cure.

Then today, I noticed small bloody spots around the mouth of one of my angelfish, breathing heavily. One goldfish has red streaks on its tail, same as pic at Hemorrhagic Septicemia.

Second time my tank gets infected by a shark. I realize now, longer quarantine is a necessity. Last time I used Maracyne 3 tablets x 5 days and it helped. Shall I apply that again?

[OrionGirl]

Yes--but make sure to monitor the ammonia levels, since Maracyne 3 will hurt your biological filtration.

And, honestly, you still need to consider moving the goldies out of a tropical tank. in the long run, they will overstock the tank, and are not compatible with the other fish.

[Flavius]

Bought a hardness kit. KH is 50, GH 200. Shall I use softener?

Angel died 2 days ago, right when I started Maracyne. Goldfish started to heal, but today (2nd day of Maracyne) noticed reddish fin of another goldfish. Not sure what it is, might be injury, one platy baby keeps biting that fin.

[zazz]

Sorry about your fish!
Whatever is actually killing them, I would think they have become more suseptable (sp?) from the up and down of your ph.
In future, try not battling a ph of7.6 should be fine.
Also, IMO living at that temp might weaken the immunity f GF . although others will disagree.
good luck

[Flavius]

Didn't use that pH reducer that much. In this case I think it's definetely a disease. Yesterday I went back to the store where I bought the sharks and there it was another one having exactly the same symptoms like the one I bought and died right after. That's it, I learned my lesson, I already bought stuff to set up a Q-tank.

Now another thing, I bought some water softener, they said it reduces hardness quite dramatically from 220 to 60 in 24 hours. Isn't that stressful? Should I apply it gradually? It's a pillow that goes into the filter.

[OrionGirl]

Read up on HOW it softens the water. Often, these things 'work' by swapping ions out of the water, and replacing, say, calcium ions with phosphates. The water will read softer, but it still has the same amount of dissolved stuff, just of a different makeup, which doesn't benefit the fish at all.

[Flavius]

5th day of Maracyne, two goldies still show signs of fin septicemia, tail rot, possibly dropsy. I isolated them in a q-tank. 3rd goldie, shark and the rest of the fish are OK. Maracyne booklet sais 5 days treatment may be repeated only once if necessary. Shall I proceed with that on all fish or just the sick goldies?

Another thing, I heard some aquarists maintain a constant low level of salt in their tanks for safety. How can one control that? Are there any salt concentration tests available?

[Flavius]

...pet store also suggested Melafix. I'd like to give it a try, as Maracyne didn't seem to help much. Can I apply it right after the Maracyne treatment? Shall I do a water change first, wait for a day? I'd also like to do the hardness treatment asap. I was thinking about this:

1. 25% water change
2. hardness treatment (1 day)
3. Melafix 7 days

[tricksterpup]

I would suggest doing more Water changes, poor water conditions may be your issue. How old is this tank? I have seen curved spins on fish before but doing regular water changes and changing charcole regularly will help. reason why your fish are getting infected is that they are stressed, fix the stressing issue and that is your problem.
I agree with Orion Girl, one problem is the Goldfish with tropicals, its a bad idea and a train wreck waiting to happen.

[Flavius]

My tank is about 6 month old. Filters have been changed very recently. Except hardness, which i'm gonna treat now, the other params are ok. I'm afraid simply changing the water won't heal the goldies, i think i'll try melafix

[tricksterpup]

My tank is about 6 month old. Filters have been changed very recently. Except hardness, which i'm gonna treat now, the other params are ok. I'm afraid simply changing the water won't heal the goldies, i think i'll try melafix
I wouldnt worry about hardness, many old timers here refuse to use chemicals to treat water quality such as hardness. But I still recommend doing more water changes. It will help your fish in the long run.

[bubbles42151]

oriongirl is right. goldies don't just have different requirements they also create mor waste than other fish.

[Flavius]

are these KH/GH figures realistic?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=6&acatid=425&aid=1079

My test kit sais KH should be >80 mg/L, no indication for ideal GH.

[Flavius]

I need some serious help here, my headcount literally cut to half. I had 2-3 of each specie, now look what's left... Another goldfish died today in the q-tank. Another one is still hanging there but has fin septicemia, fin rot and body fungus. Was anyone succesful in treating any disease, cause my succes rate is about 10%. The guys in the main tank are OK though, except the bent spine platy. Swimming and eating well otherwise, pretty active too (isn't this guy just getting old or something?).

The summary:
- everything was fine until like 2 weeks ago when I bought a sick shark that died the next day.
- soon 2nd shark got sick, but got cured quickly with some salt.
- then one angel got sick
- started 5 day treatment with Maracyne
- angel died
- 2 goldfish got sick
- end of Maracyne, isolated the 2 goldies, continued treatment with Melafix, as Maracyne didn't seem to help

Now my main concern is that the main tank is still infected but the existing fish are just too strong for the disease. How do I figure that out? Will those bacteria eventually just perish if they don't find a host?

Then what if the Maracyne did kill the beneficial bacteria as well?

[tricksterpup]

Flavius you are not basically reading our posts, Hardness is not an issue but pretty helpful for platies, most live bearers like hard water.
Goldfish also do well in hardwater, I would not do additives to your water but instead do more water changes. Goldfish are messy fish and stress out other fish. This is the reason why you have your problems. Goldfish and tropicals do not mix.

It looks like you are adding salt and other chemicals to the tank that is stressing everyone out and not doing proper water changes.
Plus if you used any type of Antibiotic in your tank, ALL BACTERIA will die off, good or bad, they are dead.

[Flavius]

It's hard to decide who to follow. OrionGirl suggested on her first posts that water is too hard, and it was indeed 220. Now you say it's OK. By the book it should be 60. Why all this science then if we don't follow it?

Guy at the store adviced salt is good once a month. Besides that, there were no chemicals added except the tap water conditioner, which I believe everyone uses and the pH reducer once a month maybe. Yesterday I indeed used the softener pillow, but that's far after my problems started. Is there any way to avoid any chemical? As far as I know boiling won't eliminate chlorine and chloramine.

Who said I didn't change the water? 25-30% boiled/treated water every 2 weeks.

OK, I agree about goldfish, I'll do something about it. But believe me they were all OK together for month, no diseases, no signs of stress. You can't convince me that in this particular case stress caused by goldfish killed the other ones, since goldfish are dying too and we are talking about clear bacterial symptoms. In my understanding stress does not cause a bacterial infection. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now if all the bacteria in the tank are dead, how comes the fish didn't cure? Is there any medication that is known to be working?

[tricksterpup]

It's hard to decide who to follow. OrionGirl suggested on her first posts that water is too hard, and it was indeed 220. Now you say it's OK. By the book it should be 60. Why all this science then if we don't follow it?
Well, with it this high, water changes should lower it. Try using RO, Reverse Osmosis, water, that should lower it. You can purchase this at either your local fish store or Grocery store. This is very neutral water, so your ph and hardness should be fine.




Guy at the store adviced salt is good once a month. Besides that, there were no chemicals added except the tap water conditioner, which I believe everyone uses and the pH reducer once a month maybe. Yesterday I indeed used the softener pillow, but that's far after my problems started. Is there any way to avoid any chemical? As far as I know boiling won't eliminate chlorine and chloramine.
Freshwater fish do not need salt in their water, it causes problems in the long run. Freshwater fish lives in Freshwater and never ever sees any salt. Over time, this causes problems to the fish and its organs.



Who said I didn't change the water? 25-30% boiled/treated water every 2 weeks.


There is no need to boil your water, just treat it normally, I recommend Amquel. Its a very good and tested water treater.



In my understanding stress does not cause a bacterial infection. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Stress, will cause even humans to come down and get very sick with the simpliest of infections. It does very bad things to humans and animals alike. But you are correct, stress doesnt cause an infection, it just gives the animal a low immune system where it can die.



Now if all the bacteria in the tank are dead, how comes the fish didn't cure? Is there any medication that is known to be working?
Not all bacteria dies easily, i was being a little extreme there, but the odds are all the bad bacteria is still alive and the good is dead. That is why you never want to treat a reef tank with antibiotics, bad mojo..

[Flavius]

Thanks, that clarifies a bit.

[Flavius]

I have one last concern: doing frequent water changes won't eliminate the bad bacteria, they'll always have time to catch up between water changes. Now total water change is not adviceable and it won't help anyway, as bacteria might survive on plants, gravel and filters. I'm just thinking to start over again with a new tank then move the fish only, and nothing else, from the old tank to the new one. How about that?

[tricksterpup]

I have one last concern: doing frequent water changes won't eliminate the bad bacteria, they'll always have time to catch up between water changes. Now total water change is not adviceable and it won't help anyway, as bacteria might survive on plants, gravel and filters. I'm just thinking to start over again with a new tank then move the fish only, and nothing else, from the old tank to the new one. How about that?
well, I think you would be fine with the old tank. See the bad stuff is always in your tank. Its always thriving and living. Sometimes you do introduce new stuff into the tank but alot of times, its already there. Its just that your fishs' immune system is low and that is when they get sick.

[OrionGirl]

OrionGirl suggested on her first posts that water is too hard, and it was indeed 220. Now you say it's OK. By the book it should be 60. Why all this science then if we don't follow it?


Re-read what I wrote. I never indicated that the water was too hard, nor that you should change it. I simply stated that you should KNOW those readings, as it helps determine if the water will sustain a stable pH.

2nd--'bacterial' problems only become such when the fish are stressed to the point where they can't resist the infection. There is no such thing as 'bad' bacteria--there are constantly present bacteria that can become pathogenic when other issues allow them to do so. The stress from the temp, and the crowding certainly qualify. Addressing those issues and alleviating the stress will allow the fish to be healthier and deal with the infection.

[Flavius]

I wasn't trying to blame and eventually it doesn't matter what one sais. The fact is that the hardness was 3 times higher than recommended, so I used the softener for a few hours to bring it down a bit and posted here prior to that. I didn't notice any sign of stress, moreover I didn't see the fish scratching against objects anymore. So it might have helped actually.

But, I've got the point. No chemicals except for the conditioner, RO water if possible, q-tank. Thanks everyone for the advices.

Anyway, is there anything that can be done in the stage when an infection becomes acute? My last sick fish, a goldie, still fights in the q-tank. A few days ago it was floating upside down, but since yesterday it swims and eats normally. But still has fungus, fin rot and septicemia.

[tricksterpup]

Anyway, is there anything that can be done in the stage when an infection becomes acute? My last sick fish, a goldie, still fights in the q-tank. A few days ago it was floating upside down, but since yesterday it swims and eats normally. But still has fungus, fin rot and septicemia.
keep in the Q tank with normal treatment, I would also feed him food laced with Garlic.

[iamgroovy]

Who said I didn't change the water? 25-30% boiled/treated water every 2 weeks.


Perhaps it would help if you upped this to once or twice a week? Certainly wouldn't hurt.

[Flavius]

keep in the Q tank with normal treatment, I would also feed him food laced with Garlic.

How is this lacing done exactly?

[Flavius]

Problemes never seem to end. Adult platy with the bent spine just vanished, ick on all 3 platy babies. I was reading the ich article, mentions that salt is OK with the carbon filter. What about the ammonia filter? Can I keep it in as well?

[tricksterpup]

Problemes never seem to end. Adult platy with the bent spine just vanished, ick on all 3 platy babies. I was reading the ich article, mentions that salt is OK with the carbon filter. What about the ammonia filter? Can I keep it in as well?
Ok, have you done any of the water changes recommended? every week, it should be about 30 percent.
I personally do not like treating ick with salt, but you can keep your filtration running. It does not absorb the ick but what many people do not know is that they will turn off the filtration and then run it after treatment and they get another outbreak. Alot of times the organisms can thrive in the filter media and bio wheels. So I would take that all out after treatment. But it is recommended when treating for ick to do regular water changes every few days.

[Flavius]

I did the 30% water changes, one week ago and today, before starting the salt treatment. If I do more water changes during the treatment, I guess I should add salt to keep the level constant, right? What do you treat the ich with, by the way?

Another thing, I recently added a large shell into my tank as ornament. I boiled it before. Today when I cleaned it I realized that by its spiral shape, it holds water inside that doesn't have the chance to circulate. The water inside smell really bad, like something was roting there. After I bleached it, it didn't smell anymore, so I don't think there's something inside, just the bad smell from the water. Might that be a source of bacteria?

[zazz]

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39759
that's how to treat ICH.
best of luck with it all.