Activated Carbon-Emperor Filter Question

[mykidsmylife]

I feel like I am always bugging you all with tons of questions, but I am so very grateful to find this resource. SO thank you all for baring with me.
My question is- I just set up my new 75 gallon tank Friday (WOOHOOO) and I purchased 2 Emperor 280 bio wheel filters for it. They came with empty "cartridges" that you can fill with activated carbon. I currently have the "disposable" cartridges in both, but would you go ahead and fill the carbon cartridges and rinse it well then use? I am doing a fishless cycle with Bio-Spira and ammonia. SO far all levels still test at 0. Perhaps I'm not adding enough ammonia.
Thanks to all!
Mykidsmylife

40 Gallon
4 neon tetra's
5 Rasbora's
4 albino cory's
5 rummy nosed tetra's
2 leapord cory's
1 female beta
2 female platy's in jail for murder! (jail= 2 gallon isolation tank)

75 Gallon
Fishless cycling

I forgot to add. I have the carbon now so if you all think I should add it, just let me know :D

[wataugachicken]

hold on!! first of all, if you are using biospira, you don't need to use ammonia. you can put all your fish in there a few hours after you add the bio-spira. bio-spira is the actual bacteria you need, so you don't need to use ammonia to build up the population. it's already there as soon as you dump the package into the water. the bacteria is eating the ammonia you are adding, that's why you're not getting any readings. check nitrates though, you may have to do a water change before you add your fish (should be under 20ppm). otherwise, run your filters and put your fish in.

second, no you don't really need the carbon in there. its main purpose is to chemically trap things in the water like ammonia and medicines, but as long as your biological filtration is good then you don't need the carbon. just use the empty filter cartridge itself. if you medicate your tank (not recommended though, you should have a smaller hospital tank set up) then use the carbon to filter out meds after you are done treating. when your cartridges get yucky, just rinse them a bit in old tank water and put them back, you only need to change them when they're falling apart.

[mykidsmylife]

Okay...now I'm confused. I guess that makes sense why my ammonia is testing at zero...but I'm testing 0 nitrates as well. Shoot....did I mess up the bio-spira?? I don't think I have done any real harm but I haven't quite decided what to put in the tank. For some reason I thought it would take it weeks even with the biospira!
SO....should I go and get a few fish for the tank?? I could add some platy's that are in jail for murder (I do have a small tank, but think I will set up a 5 1/2 gallon as my hospital tank...have that too, just not running). I was going to take them back to the LFS tomorrow and trade them in. Tuesday's is buy one get one free day. LOL...I'm cheap! Should I add two more bags of the biospira if I have buggered it up already?
What would be your opinion of adding 3 baby clown loaches to the tank? I will have to slowly stock it, I got a fortune wrapped up in it now.
Thank you so much for the help. The carbon now makes sense as well and I guess it's good I have it just in case but I don't plan on adding meds to the tank.
mykidsmylife

[wataugachicken]

i would just wait until you know what fish you want to get. the package says to add the fish and the bacteria at the same time, so buy everything at once when you figure out what you want, and throw it all in there together.

as far as nitrates - there may not be enough in there yet to give a reading, or your test kit might be messed up. does your other tank show nitrates? how much ammonia were you adding to the tank? how about nitrite levels? did you keep your bio-spira in the fridge?

[mishi8]

Don't get fish yet. It doesn't hurt anything to do a fishless cycle and use Bio-Spira. It should just really speed up the process for you...once you get readings with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some nitrates you're good to add fish (after changing water to reduce nitrates to a safe level). If you're adding 4ppm of ammonia to the tank daily (test the levels after adding ammonia to the tank, and add more if necessary), you should be getting some reading of nitrate eventually. Test the ammonia levels 24 hours after adding to see how the biofilter is doing. The bonus to doing it this way is that if the Bio-Spira doesn't work, then you haven't harmed any fish. :)

[mykidsmylife]

Don't get fish yet. It doesn't hurt anything to do a fishless cycle and use Bio-Spira. It should just really speed up the process for you...once you get readings with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some nitrates you're good to add fish (after changing water to reduce nitrates to a safe level). If you're adding 4ppm of ammonia to the tank daily (test the levels after adding ammonia to the tank, and add more if necessary), you should be getting some reading of nitrate eventually. Test the ammonia levels 24 hours after adding to see how the biofilter is doing. The bonus to doing it this way is that if the Bio-Spira doesn't work, then you haven't harmed any fish. :)

Thank you. That was kinda my thoughts on it as well. Perhaps I am not adding enough of the ammonia. What would 4 ppm's of ammonia be in cups for a 75 gallon tank? Geesh...this is making me feel so stupid. I had NO problems doing it this way with my 40 gallon which has been set up for about a month and half and is now fully stocked. It was easy with it, and I used biospira/fishless cycle with it too. I never got huge ammonia or nitrate spikes with it. It showed trace amounts for a couple days then the nitrates went up...I did a good water change, added the fish and we have been happily ever after so far with it....well, until I got a murderer within the tank! LOL (Some eyeball eating murderer! LOL but the possible suspects have all been placed in jail.) ;)
I have noticed by reading all the different post that many people have many different ways of doing things, yet they all seem to have the same end results. I suppose it's a matter of finding what works best for you and going for it.
Thanks again,
mykidsmylife

[mykidsmylife]

i would just wait until you know what fish you want to get. the package says to add the fish and the bacteria at the same time, so buy everything at once when you figure out what you want, and throw it all in there together.

as far as nitrates - there may not be enough in there yet to give a reading, or your test kit might be messed up. does your other tank show nitrates? how much ammonia were you adding to the tank? how about nitrite levels? did you keep your bio-spira in the fridge?

I added 1/4 cup ammonia on Friday and Sat...none yesterday. It's a brand new test kit and my nitrates are testing around 5 in my 40 gallon, which is what the LFS tested it at as well. I always take a water sample in to them and let them test it to. I figure they do it for free and it lets me know my test are working.
I had the tank up and running and brought the biospira straight from the store and placed in tank..still cold. I suppose there is the risk that it was not refridgerated somewhere along the shipping and receiving line. I also took some gravel from the established tank and placed in the 75 gallon. The water looks fantastic in there, crystal clear, but I know that doesn't mean a lot.
Thank you again,
mykidsmylife
Perhaps I should have just bought another parrot! LOL...they are easier for me! :p:

[aknif]

Hey, wautugachicken, what's the point of using the extra cartridges empty? Just wondering... if you're gonna leave them empty, why not just leave them out entirely? Just another option: In my Emperor 400's extra cartridges, I filled them with those little ceramic bio-donut things... just for a place for extra bene-bacteria to colonize...

Just my 2 cents!

:)

[mishi8]

Thank you. That was kinda my thoughts on it as well. Perhaps I am not adding enough of the ammonia. What would 4 ppm's of ammonia be in cups for a 75 gallon tank?

Ammonia concentations can vary from brand to brand and bottle to bottle. The only way to find out how much to add is to add some and then immediately test the water. For my own tank (20 gallon) I used a medicine dropper to add exact amounts.

Here is a really good article and instructions for fishless cycling:
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=31

[Holly9937]

Are the empty "cartridges" like a greyish color with slits and they snap together? If so, I have the same ones and I use filter floss in them. It is a bit of a pain to get it in the cartridge just right, but it seems to trap dirt and gunk really well, plus it is sooo cheap that I don't mind throwing it away every couple of weeks ( I stagger the replacements, refilling one cartridge every couple of weeks, then the other~BUT with a biowheel thats not really necessary). Its much cheaper than the pre-assembled stuff you can buy, plus the carbon isn't really necessary anyway.

As for the clowns, they would be fine in the tank for a while, but a 75g should not be their forever home...something to think about, or an excuse to get a bigger tank later :D !! Also, they can be susceptible to ich, even if they look healthy in the store, they still might have it.... SO I would either QT them for at least a month, or you could put them in the tank first and just not add anything else for a while...

[mykidsmylife]

Are the empty "cartridges" like a greyish color with slits and they snap together? If so, I have the same ones and I use filter floss in them. It is a bit of a pain to get it in the cartridge just right, but it seems to trap dirt and gunk really well, plus it is sooo cheap that I don't mind throwing it away every couple of weeks ( I stagger the replacements, refilling one cartridge every couple of weeks, then the other~BUT with a biowheel thats not really necessary). Its much cheaper than the pre-assembled stuff you can buy, plus the carbon isn't really necessary anyway.

As for the clowns, they would be fine in the tank for a while, but a 75g should not be their forever home...something to think about, or an excuse to get a bigger tank later :D !! Also, they can be susceptible to ich, even if they look healthy in the store, they still might have it.... SO I would either QT them for at least a month, or you could put them in the tank first and just not add anything else for a while...

Yep, that is exactly what they are. Could I use just a polyester fiber...as in FIberfill that is used to stuff pillows if it is rinsed really well? Or would it be best to find the stuff at the LFS? I know I read somewhere that people use it for aquariums but wasnt sure if it was the same stuff. I know my 40 gallon has an Eclipse 3 hood/filter system and after just running these two emperor filters since Friday, I realize how much better I like it than the eclipse. There is no way on the Eclipse to slow water flow and the cartridges seem a little flimsy in the polystuff. Makes me wonder just how much it actually catches.

I am torn with the loaches. The LFS said that if I grow them out to a decent size they would buy them back. They are such tiny babies now. I just can't imagine people having large enough tanks to buy big ones and worry that some one with a tank even smaller than mine would buy them when they are that large. Perhaps I will just start with two small Angels, that was my original plan. Could two adult/full grown angels live happily in a 75 gallon as their forever home? I really don't want to put anything in there that will eventually need a larger tank. I want to put in there what would be appropriate at full grown stage in a 75 gal.
Thanks to all for the help. It is so greatly appreciated.
mykidsmylife

[mykidsmylife]

Ammonia concentations can vary from brand to brand and bottle to bottle. The only way to find out how much to add is to add some and then immediately test the water. For my own tank (20 gallon) I used a medicine dropper to add exact amounts.

Here is a really good article and instructions for fishless cycling:
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=31

Thank you. I will do just that!
mykidsmylife

[Holly9937]

I'm pretty sure you can use that stuff, but I'm not positive :confused: ! I don't want to tell you yes and poison your tank :laugh: . I would either do a search on here, or start a new thread if no one chimes in soon

Clowns are very neat fish, and I doubt you will want to get rid of them once you spend some time watching them. They are the most entertaining fish I have, and seem to have alot more personality than my other fish. I can even tell a couple of mine apart now due to their markings and they seem to have their own personalitys (one always lays floated up to the top of a cave structure, almost upside down, another likes the other fish alot, and follows them around ;) )

[daveedka]

A couple thoughts to add for further clarification.



its main purpose is to chemically trap things in the water like ammonia and medicines


Carbon does remove meds and other chemical contaminants, it does not remove ammonia.

Carbon is considered by most of us to be an unneccessary item. Chemical filtration is only needed when there are unwanted chemicals in the tank. I have had the same box of AC in my aquarium stand for 10+ years. If I need it it's there but seldom is there a need.

Additionally, AC doesn't take long (usually a few days only) to fill up and quit working, so it is only a short term item to boot.

Fishless is always easier to do, so adding ammonia, and bio-spira IMO is a good move. If the bio-spira happens to be bad, you aren't stuck with a high workload fishy cycle, if it works well then you will be ready quickly to add you fish. It really is a no lose proposition when done that way.

I quit buying emporer cartidges long ago, I have added fliter floss to the extra media packs, and it works fairly well. But mostly I just cut bulk sponge to fit in the media wells and use that with no cartridges. As far as extra bio-media in the cartridges, I'm a firm believer in large volume bio-media in a system. however, you will find that those little bio-wheels are more than adequate for even a very heavy bio-load. biowheels are amazing in their capacity. I have never worried about changing media when a bio-wheel was in play, and have never had a mini cycle ever when a healthy bio-wheel was on the tank. And I have raised some big messy fish in limited tank space over the years.
Dave

[mykidsmylife]

I'm pretty sure you can use that stuff, but I'm not positive :confused: ! I don't want to tell you yes and poison your tank :laugh: . I would either do a search on here, or start a new thread if no one chimes in soon

Clowns are very neat fish, and I doubt you will want to get rid of them once you spend some time watching them. They are the most entertaining fish I have, and seem to have alot more personality than my other fish. I can even tell a couple of mine apart now due to their markings and they seem to have their own personalitys (one always lays floated up to the top of a cave structure, almost upside down, another likes the other fish alot, and follows them around ;) )

I did a forum search and came up with this
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42914
So I guess it can be done with the polyfill type stuff if neccisary. I think when cleaning the gravel and you get some "stuff" floating around it would be handy to have on hand to help clean up the water. I will look in the LFS tomorrow and see if I can find some just for aquariums...but since I work PT at a store called Hobby Lobby...I could probably get some pretty cheap. :)

You didnt help me much on my clown loach decision! :p: You just make them sound all the more charming. I guess I will just talk to the guy at the LFS and investigate some more. I really pushed my luck with my hubby telling him I needed this 75 gallon...and keep the 40! LOL...wait until I tell him down the road I need a larger one for my clown loaches. LOL :laugh:
Thank you for your input
mykidsmylife

[mykidsmylife]

A couple thoughts to add for further clarification.





Carbon does remove meds and other chemical contaminants, it does not remove ammonia.

Carbon is considered by most of us to be an unneccessary item. Chemical filtration is only needed when there are unwanted chemicals in the tank. I have had the same box of AC in my aquarium stand for 10+ years. If I need it it's there but seldom is there a need.

Additionally, AC doesn't take long (usually a few days only) to fill up and quit working, so it is only a short term item to boot.

Fishless is always easier to do, so adding ammonia, and bio-spira IMO is a good move. If the bio-spira happens to be bad, you aren't stuck with a high workload fishy cycle, if it works well then you will be ready quickly to add you fish. It really is a no lose proposition when done that way.

I quit buying emporer cartidges long ago, I have added fliter floss to the extra media packs, and it works fairly well. But mostly I just cut bulk sponge to fit in the media wells and use that with no cartridges. As far as extra bio-media in the cartridges, I'm a firm believer in large volume bio-media in a system. however, you will find that those little bio-wheels are more than adequate for even a very heavy bio-load. biowheels are amazing in their capacity. I have never worried about changing media when a bio-wheel was in play, and have never had a mini cycle ever when a healthy bio-wheel was on the tank. And I have raised some big messy fish in limited tank space over the years.
Dave
Wonderful information Dave. Thank you so very much!!!

Geesh I love this forum...you are all so fantastic and willing to share your experience and knowledge with us newbies. Thank you all :bowing: and I'm sure my fish thank you all as well. I kept fish years ago and just started doing it again. As I gain more knowledge and read more, I am amazed that I ever had fish survive in the past. Ignorance is NOT bliss...especially to those poor fish who had to suffer thru my poor care and tank maintence. I had never even heard of a fishless cycle until I joined here. Heck, I knew very little about cycling at all and the LFS I went to then never helped. I now have found the perfect LFS who won't sell me anything unless they test my water fist. That's great to me!!
Mykidsmylife

[daveedka]

I kept fish years ago and just started doing it again. As I gain more knowledge and read more, I am amazed that I ever had fish survive in the past

I have said the same thing many times. There is so much to learn. And more importantly, knowledge makes the hobby way more fun.
dave