125 gallon vs 180 gallon

[svtcontour]

Hi everyone, just picked up a new house (well new to me...its 12 years old). I want to put a good sized tank on the main level instead of putting it in the basement. I really want a 180 but I'm afraid of the floor. A 125 seems like a nice safe tank size. Its going to be on a wooden stand or wooden cabinet I mean so hopefully I wont have much to worry about....

So would the following be too much for a 125 or fine?

17x full grown congo tetra - about 4"
1x 5" angelfish
4x 4" clown loach *** not sure about these ***
1x 2" skunk botia
3x 3" kooli loach
5x 1 3/4" harlequin rasboara
5x 2" glowlight tetra
12x 2" blackskirt tetra


I will also have a secondary tank in the basement which will be a 75 gallon. Its going to have a single 7" dempsey and a 12" common pleco. Maybe the clown loach will or should be in here??

[sardesign]

I'm not sure if you will have problems with the stocking of the tank... it seems okay to me but I don't know the full adult length of some of those fish. Find that out first... as for your floor problem.

12 year old house means it was built in the early 90's. Is it a tract house? What is the joist spacing in the floor? Wood floor or something else? How does the wooden cabinet meet the floor? Legs or a full permeter bearing area?

If you don't know the spacing of the joists in your floor, go to your basement to an unfinished ceiling area and check the O.C. (on center distance). Also check the depth of the joists.

Simply put, if it's a good structural wood (Douglas Fir) for the floor, it's got a compressive strength perpendicular to the grain of the wood of about 1000 psi. Your tank will weigh about 1200 pounds or so (if 125 gallons) with gravel + ornaments. You shouldn't have any problems if you line your tank perpendicular to the joists or parallel as long as there are two or more joists supporting your tank. If you need a graphical diagram, I can work one up.

[NatakuTseng]

The 180 also has a larger footprint, which spreads the weight of the tank out better over a larger area to lower the amount of pounds per squarefoot/inch on that area.

[svtcontour]

Wow thanks for the prompt reply. I am going to go for the home inspection tomorrow before closing all deals... The house is in Toronto - well just about 20 minutes out of Toronto. I have the listing here if it provides any info for you :)

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?vd=&SearchURL=%3fPage%3d3%26Mode%3d0%26vs%3d1%26rlt%3d %26cp%3d%26pt%3d20%26mp%3d200000-225000-0%26mrt%3d-1-0-0%26Beds%3d0-0%26Baths%3d0-0%26f%3d%26ft%3dall%26o%3dA%26of%3d1%26ps%3d10%26p tgid%3d1%26aid%3d3500%26MapURL%3d%253fAreaID%253d3 495&Mode=0&PropertyID=3954084

The floor is that fake looking wood. Looks like hard wood but its not. Its some kind of laminate wood from the looks of it. Supposed to be fairly easy to take care of. I'm not sure how far the spacing is of the support beams under the floor but I will try and see that tomorrow. Not sure what is considered good for reasonable strength. I'm probably going to put it either in the living room against the wall that faces the outside of the house or in the kitchen, again against the wall that is facing the outside of the house. I'm guessing these would be the strongest walls. Its not a very big house, only about 1300 square feet but its only for myself so its plenty. Me and the fishies. LOL.

I wonder if the house inspector is qualified to tell me such a thing if I ask him. Anyway I'll try and get either pictures or some kind of info about the floor of the house (from the basement looking above to see the bracing).

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

A good home inspector should be able to give you the proper info...Alway go across the floor joists, not with...Closer to a load bearing wall also means being closer to a header. Worse comes to worse, it isnt that hard to add additonal support from the basement

[sardesign]

Pixie Queen has a point about adding support if needed, but make sure you know what you are doing. Just nailing up pieces of wood won't necessarily do the trick. What needs to happen is to add the necessary support where you are placing your tank and having the weight distributed to a girder or support beam... or better yet, straight down to the foundation wall. An exterior wall is definetly going to be the best because it has the least amount of deflection and is usually the strongest point because that is where the load for the house is going.

It is possible to run the tank parallel to the joists but you just have to be very careful about added support... but only do that if it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. I saw a picture of a my co-worker's brother's tank that cracked the plywood underlayment and put a stress fracture in the joist below because he placed it parallel to the joists on only one joist. They were 2x8's placed 24" O.C. (pretty much illegal). How an inspector didn't catch that is beyond me!!! Perhaps there was no framing inspection done on that house.

[sardesign]

I saw the pictures of the house... pop the ceiling tiles up in the basement and poke your head up there (with your inspector and a flashlight).

[Jericho]

Being built in the 90's it is possible that you have an engineered floor, so you may see wooden I-beams or trusses in there. As stated a home inspector should be able to give you recommendations. If you are dealing with an engineered floor you will not be able to brace it up as you will change the characteristics of the engineered beams and you can weaken the floor.

[CharlieV]

just my .02 - on my 100g I put around 10ft x 4 ft of plywood under the carpet where the tank was going (double length and width of my tank basically) to redistribute the weight - works great for me but i am 20g lighter than you!

[sardesign]

One more thing... probably just as important as placement... make sure your tank is level. If it's not you run the risk of creating too much force in a small amount of area. Just like a screwdriver to a pane of glass. Same force over a smaller area (tip of screwdriver blade) results in failure.

[svtcontour]

I just saw the house...in the basement, from the furnace room, I could see the beams. They dont look very big. Looks like they are 1.5x6.5 but the inspector said they are what is called 2x8 even though they are actually smaller. Looks like they are spaced out every 12-13 inches... not sure how strong that would be but the inspector says it should be fine, even with the 180 as long as I'm not putting force on only 4 legs. Doesnt think 2000lbs would be an issue...

[downright]

So would the following be too much for a 125 or fine?

17x full grown congo tetra - about 4"
1x 5" angelfish
4x 4" clown loach *** not sure about these ***
1x 2" skunk botia
3x 3" kooli loach
5x 1 3/4" harlequin rasboara
5x 2" glowlight tetra
12x 2" blackskirt tetra

The clowns will get too big if they thrive.

I would consider adding a few more of the kuhlis, rasboras, and glowlights, and maybe go for a smaller Botia or other bottom feeder.

[downright]

The clowns will get too big if they thrive.

I would consider adding a few more of the kuhlis, rasboras, and glowlights, and maybe go for a smaller Botia or other bottom feeder.

[Jericho]

Just so you know wood is rough cut at 2"x8". they then plane the wood down so that it is smooth and that is where you loose some of the size (usually a half an inch per dimension). If you are going to ave four legs you may want to try to line them up on the beams. And yes as long as the wood is in good condition it should be jsut fine.

[sardesign]

SVTContour,

2x8 are nominal sizes. Actual size is 1.5 x 7.25 (i think). Anyway, 12" O.C. is good (and legal), bad thing is that although the wood they use is probably safe, you can never tell what will happen with all the unknown deficiencies in wood. Safe bet = place it perpendicular to the joists like everyone before has said, near an exterior wall and make sure that the tank stand has a significant footprint (not just perimeter, but the entire area that actually touches the ground) to handle the weight.

You should be fine, but you can never tell. Maybe the builder decided to use a crappy grade of lumber to save a buck and no one caught him. You won't know until it fails (unless you can find the lumber stamp on the joists). :)

[Holly9937]

I think the list is doable, but you would definately be fully stocked. Chances are some of the smaller fish (tetras etc.) will die before the clowns get really big, and free up some space. I would probably not replace everything as age begins to take its toll

[svtcontour]

Hmmm. I should mention that for filteration, I will have a large Eheim 2260 as well as an Eheim 2217 (as backup purposes) running at the same time. I wonder how big those clown loach will get. I read somewhere they can get to 8-10" long!! I've never seen one past 5-6" though.

[Jericho]

Also if you want to make your joists stronger and you have room in the basement you can put a strong back on there. That is when you take two pieces of wood (preferable 2x6 or 2x8) and make a T out of them and nail the top of the T to the joists. It will tie in all the joists and as stated make cure your tank spans as many joists as possible.

[sardesign]

a followup on Jericho's suggestion... it's a good idea to do that especially if you have only 2x8's. You can use Simpson Strong Tie's on the members that you cut (1 on each side, 2 at each end). They are bent pieces of steel with holes for screws. #8's will fit and each strong tie (if you get the A34) will hold about 400 pounds in shear (straight down perpendicular to the grain of the wood). The screws should be long enough so they don't pull out of the wood. You can get all of these things at ACE, Home Depot, Lowe's, or your favorite local hardware store.

[Jericho]

You can use Simpson Strong Tie's on the members that you cut (1 on each side, 2 at each end). They are bent pieces of steel with holes for screws. #8's will fit and each strong tie (if you get the A34) will hold about 400 pounds in shear (straight down perpendicular to the grain of the wood). The screws should be long enough so they don't pull out of the wood. You can get all of these things at ACE, Home Depot, Lowe's, or your favorite local hardware store.

Simpson ties are not the best thing in the world (they are not as strong as they say) and you should NEVER and I do mean NEVER use screws for structural work. A screw is not intended to take shear pressure and that is what you are looking at here. Screws are used for decks and floors that lay flat and do not have any shear forces. Nails are your best bet and they will bend under shear pressure where as a screw will break. You can make a stronger strong back with wood, but Simpson ties are easy to use and they are better than nothing. Just remember nails not screws, and you can get ring shanked nails if you are worried about it pulling out.

[sardesign]

Well IMHO, screws work. I work with a very intelligent and experience structural engineer... and for the kind of loads we are talking about, Simpson strong ties are more than adequate. They don't rate those things for loads they cannot handle and they are great for corner conditions where placing a nail or screw is not possible... but we don't need to turn this thread into a class on structures. Just beef up those joists, because 2x8's for a floor are pretty small. I wonder why they chose to do that. Usually you see those for roof rafters. Homes built in the 70's and 80's sometimes had 2x6's as rafters... which is scary during large rainfall and snow because of ponding.

[willy:-)]

On the stocking topic I would go for a few less congos considering 17 of them would result in 68 inches of fish, unless of course they are your fav. and you want the most of them. Good luck with your new tank!!
-Willy:-)

[svtcontour]

Willy, I definitly love my congos and I do want it to be primarily a congo tank. I wish I could go with the 180 but I'm really nervous about the floor so I'm going with the 125.

I wonder... what if I just went with the congos, harlequin rasbora (5) and the khuli loach, skunk loach and Angelfish. I can put everything else into a 40 gallon I also have which is not in use - except for the dempsy and clown loaches which can go into the 75.

[sardesign]

SVT Contour... what are the dimensions of the 125 and 180? You won't have to be nervous if they are long and shallow tanks (not tall and thin). They will cover more surface area if they are long and shallow, therefore, dropping the unit pressure (lb per sq. ft.) to your floor.

i.e. 100 gallon tank (60 x 24 x 17) = 1100 lbs. after fully loaded (approx.)

Footprint is 60" x 24" = 10 sq. ft.

1100 / 10 = 110 lbs. per sq. ft.

If you do yours, it will come out close because typically larger tanks have bigger footprints. I wouldn't worry too much. The real issue with 2x8's for flooring is the possibility of sagging. If they span great distances from beam to beam (or girder to beam, etc.) then it could be a problem. Typically it isn't unless you have a really tall tank.

i.e. 100 gallon tank (30 x 24 x 31) = 1100 lbs. after fully loaded (approx.)

Footprint is 30" x 24" = 5 sq. ft.

1100 / 5 = 220 lbs. per sq. ft.

See, the pressure doubled with half the footprint. Just use your common sense. Go for the 180 if the dimensions are long and wide. The longer and wider tanks will be better off in the end... more swimming room for the fish and you will actually be able to reach the gravel without getting your arm completely soaking wet. :)

Good luck!!!

[svtcontour]

Hmm good point with the pressure per inch. The 125 is 72x18x24 and the 180 is 72x24x24. I guess it wont be too much worse if I go with the 180 in terms of pressure but the weight on the floor still makes me nervous. I know the beams in the house are spread 13" apart from the looks of it. As you said, the 2x8 is a bit small and thats the part that makes me nervous. Assuming that the stand is a bit more than 72" wide and that the weight over the beams span 6 beams wide, thats around 350lbs a beam (if I go with a fully loaded 180). If I go with a 125 fully loaded, it might be like 220lbs per beam... I dont know if this type of calculation can apply for a house but I figure I'm putting the tank to go against the beams and not with them, it will intersect 5-6 with its 72" length.

[newbeestl]

Do you have the option of bracing the beams all the way to the floor? I've seen that done on unfinished basments and you could put an elephant on that spot. You simply install anoter pole all the way to the concrete floor. In a finished basement, the pole would have to be covered to look good though.

You probably need to talk to talk to a carpenter and see what your options are. My guess is you could easily reinforce the floor for the 180.

[Rob1eddy]

This has been a great thread. I have been going through the same process. Originally I was going for 200 plus gallons before it dawned on me that the floor would not support it. I managed to get the guy who built my house out to look and talk. We decided I could have a 70 gallon upstairs it I was next to a load bearing wall. Downstairs we found the strongest place in the floor, in a bay. It has a load bearing wall and 4 feet from that a drop sill. I'm getting a 150 that has a 60*24 footprint. I want to reinforce the floor but it's hard to get anybody to come out for such a small project.

[svtcontour]

Ya thats the problem, basement is finished already :( I'm almost leaning towards putting my 75 gallon upstairs and having the 180 in the basement :(

[sardesign]

Well... there is always the option of sistering the joists :). Alot more work involved...

However, if you are loading each beam at 350 lbs... don't worry about it. If the house was built with southern pine or douglas fir (which it most likely was), then you are looking at about 500 - 750 lbs per sq. in. of crushing strength (bending stress perpendicular to the grain). That number is with the safety factors built in. It may be even higher depending on the quality of each piece and drying method used. If you do your calculations for a distribution over 24" then you have enough wood there to support that. Now we are not taking into account for deflection (but that would require you telling me span distances which we won't get into) and twisting (which would only occur if there were no blocking between joists... there is going to always be blocking on the ground floor if the house was built properly).

You could probably do the 180gallon but if you are unsure and definetly have a place in the basement for it, buy it, fill it up slowly and listen to the floor. Check the floor levelling (with a good level) before and after you fill the tank. If you notice the floor is deflecting at all, stop and drain :) Move the tank downstairs and be done with it :) If the 180 gallon doesn't work, I'm sure the 125 won't either.