Neons dying, and a cory cat too... because of high pH?

[macphoto]

Here's my situation... 16 gal. tank, about 2 months old. Current residents are 2 very tough dwarf gouramis that survived several days of no power after hurricane Katrina (until I could get back home and hook them up to a generator). A few weeks ago, with the tank fully cycled (ammonia and nitrites 0), I decided to start adding some more fish.

Neons were what I had in mind when I decided several months ago to get back into fishkeeping, so I picked up 5 of them. They started dropping off one by one over a span of a few days. To make a long (and depressing) story shorter, I've been through 3 batches of neons (5 each time). The 2nd and 3rd batch seemed fine when I first added them (schooling happily, good appetites, etc.), but after a day or two, had started to die off. I currently have only have 2 remaining (they're hiding in the back... one looks ok, the other is a little pale). I also had a cory cat, which seemed to be doing great for several days, die yesterday. Gouramis are still fine, as is the algae eater I bought about a week ago.

I'm wondering whether my water's pH might be a factor. The "5 in 1" test strips (all I have right now) showed a pH of around 8.0 - 8.4. Could this be killing the fish? Knowing neons prefer more acidic water, I bought some stuff that is supposed to lower the pH, but have since learned from here that this is virtually pointless due to the high buffering capacity of my water, and might even cause harm to my fish. Perhaps this is what killed the cory (I've stopped using it).

I know that some attrition is probably unavoidable, but I feel terrible killing all these fish. Is there anything else I can do to help newly introduced neons survive in my tank? Should I give up on the neons? If so, any suggestions on a hardier small fish that I could add in a group of 5 or 6? Should I try another cory (I really liked him... very entertaining to watch him busily sniff out every nook and cranny of the tank looking for food)?

Here are my water parameters:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20ppm
Hardness: 25ppm
Alkalinity/Buffering: 300ppm (maybe more)
pH: 8.0 - 8.4

--Mike

[Matt W]

I too have had terrible success rates with cories and neons. My pH runs about 8.2-8.4 as well. My solution was to just choose different fish. I've found that harlequin rasboras work well for me as do black skirt tetras.

[macphoto]

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll look into these other fish, though I'm disappointed, because I had my heart set on neons. I wonder if cardinal tetras might do ok?

Also, any other choices for bottomfeeders besides corys? The cory (a julii) was very fun to watch, and seemed to be a diligent scavenger.

--Mike

[Harry Tolen]

pH is most likely not the factor responsible for your losses, especially since you are likely to have purchased them from a local source with water parameters similar to yours.

So the questions that then arise are: what is your filtration, what are your water changing patterns, and where are you buying the neons? Also, wherever you are buying them, and hdo they quarantine the fish before they sell them?

[macphoto]

pH is most likely not the factor responsible for your losses, especially since you are likely to have purchased them from a local source with water parameters similar to yours.

So the questions that then arise are: what is your filtration, what are your water changing patterns, and where are you buying the neons? Also, wherever you are buying them, and hdo they quarantine the fish before they sell them?

2 groups were purchased from a PetSmart several miles away (just outside the city limits, I think), so they MAY be on a different water system than my home. The other group was purchased from a shop right down the street from my house, so their water should be the same as mine. This group did seem to do a bit better than the groups from PetSmart. Perhaps I'll go try to have a talk with the owner.

I doubt either of these places quarantine the fish.

Filtration is a 125gph biowheel, and I also have a bubble wand to agitate the surface. Temp is warmer than I'd like it to be... usually about 79.5 - 80.5. Ambient temperature in the house is 76 - 78 usually, but I think the aquarium's lamp hood is warming up the water.

In all cases, I acclimated by floating the bag for 20 minutes or so, then periodically added small amounts of tank water over the next 20 minutes, before netting the fish and placing them in the tank. Is there a better way?

It breaks my heart to hear my kids ask, "daddy, how many neons are left now?" :(

--Mike

[Puffernewbee]

Thanks for the suggestions... I'll look into these other fish, though I'm disappointed, because I had my heart set on neons. I wonder if cardinal tetras might do ok?

Also, any other choices for bottomfeeders besides corys? The cory (a julii) was very fun to watch, and seemed to be a diligent scavenger.

--Mike

Cardinals are even more sensitive to pH than neons. My LFS will not even sell them to you without a water sample that they can test to make sure your pH is 6.4 or less.

[RTR]

The ignorance of LFS is limitless, fish do not and cannot "read" pH. Fish read osmolarity/TDS (the total of GH, KH, plus all other dissolved materials). There is no such thing as pH shock, but osmotic shock is not rare from changing fish from one water type to another, but it is not at all due to the pH.

[Holly9937]

What is the algae eater that you have? If it is a common pleco, you are looking at a fish that easily grows to 18+ inches, I would return it asap!!! I would try your local shop, and even ask what their ph is. A drastic change can be a problem, adjusting should not. Neons and corys though can both be somewhat sensitive. If you do get more corys, they like to be in groups, 3 would be good for your size tank. Maybe you could try 3-4 male guppys, they will school somewhat, and as long as the gouramis don't bother them, they could be a colorful and more hardy addition to the tank

[Jacquib]

I am treating ich using heat/salt and wonder how long I should leave it before I introduce any more new fish. Also, when adding new fish, are there any preventative measures I can take to stop the ich again?

Many thanks

:bowing:

[mooman]

I've found it very difficult to keep neons in tanks less than 4-5 months old. Look into drip acclimation for your future pruchases. Place fish in a small "fish only" containter/bucket. Start a siphon from the main tank and tie a knot in the hose so that you're getting about one/two drips per second. Let this run into the bucket untill the water level has doubled or even quadrupled (30, 40 50 min) then release the fish. If temp has dropped significantly during that time then float the fish for another 10-15 minutes untill temp has come back up. I do ALL my new pruchases this way. Even then, there's no gaurantee with neons. Once you get some that survive a couple months however they are pretty hardy. I have a trio that I move around as dither fish (bought 12 originally to get the three that lived) and have not lost any in the subsequent moves. I think neons and blue ram stocks suffer from the same malady. Overbreeding, poor pre-lfs treatment.

[Boohoo]

Just a little tip that I'm sure you already know. Wait about a week after your LFS gets them in before buying any. I have seen alot of dead neons within a few days of my LFS getting their order.

[macphoto]

What is the algae eater that you have? If it is a common pleco, you are looking at a fish that easily grows to 18+ inches, I would return it asap!!!
No problem... he's just a little Otocinclus.

--Mike

[macphoto]

I've found it very difficult to keep neons in tanks less than 4-5 months old. Look into drip acclimation for your future pruchases.
Thanks... I might just add a couple of guppies as suggested, and wait a while for more neons.

Then again, as of this morning my two remaining neons are still alive... they stick together, but how stressful is it for them to not have a larger group to swim around with? Maybe I should try for one more batch, using this more careful acclimation method.

--Mike

[macphoto]

Just a little tip that I'm sure you already know. Wait about a week after your LFS gets them in before buying any. I have seen alot of dead neons within a few days of my LFS getting their order.
That's probably easier said then done at PetSmart, but I'll probably stick with the LFS right down the street for now (especially since they are for certain on the same water system as my house, and the neons I got from there seemed to do better than the ones from PetSmart).

--Mike

[nlmadison]

pH is most likely not the factor responsible for your losses, especially since you are likely to have purchased them from a local source with water parameters similar to yours.

What if your LFS has an RO system and you don't?

N.

[macphoto]

What if your LFS has an RO system and you don't?
Good point... I'll have a talk with him about water before buying any more fish.

--Mike

[yohkos]

Peat or driftwood can help lower ph naturally. Might try putting peat in a small bag or nylon and put in the filter. Good luck

[mooman]

I don't think any lfs on earth is going to use RO water for the majority of thier fish. I suppose a few might use it for expensive delicate specimins like adult discus, and stingrays. And many will use it to mix up sea water for salt tanks, but for neons...no way.

[macphoto]

An update...

Things are looking much better now. I decided to try one more batch of neons, which I bought Friday morning. With the 2 survivors I had in the tank already, that gave me a total of 7. I lost one the next morning, and the LFS replaced him. But no deaths on Sunday, and none this morning either. They're schooling together, eating excitedly, and in seemingly good health.

I also bought a pair of peppered cory cats, and they're doing fine too... they seem to really enjoy each other's company.

What I did differently than before: 1) Used the "bucket method" to acclimate the newcomers, gradually adding tank water to the bucket over the span of about 4 hours, even putting in a thermometer and small heater to maintain the temp the same as the tank. 2) Added a plant to the bucket to give the fish a place to hide and feel safe. 3) Added StressCoat to the tank, and used it during subsequent water changes.

I did have a dreadful ammonia spike, which I have been diligently battling with so many water changes that I've lost count. I'm monitoring for the nitrite spike that I assume is to follow. Is this what is called a "mini-cycle"? This didn't happen before (I mean, aside from the initial cycle)... perhaps because the previous batches of new fish didn't live long enough to produce enough waste. Or... right before I added the new fish, I pulled out the filter media and swished it in a bucket of tank water to remove the loose waste matter. I wonder if this could have dislodged some of my bacteria?

--Mike

[Holly9937]

I did have a dreadful ammonia spike... right before I added the new fish, I pulled out the filter media and swished it in a bucket of tank water to remove the loose waste matter. I wonder if this could have dislodged some of my bacteria?--Mike

That would not have caused a problem, however adding 7 fish could have certainly done it, just keep up on the water changes till you're back to 0

[macphoto]

That would not have caused a problem, however adding 7 fish could have certainly done it, just keep up on the water changes till you're back to 0
Thanks... will do.

--Mike

[ronfl]

This thread is the same issue I'm having!

Two Saturday's ago bought 3 Neons, by Monday...all dead.

Last Saturday bought 4 neons, 1 dead Sunday, the rest gone last night.

Odd becuase the same time I got the neons I also bought other fish. 2 platy's one day and last weekend a blue ram. All still doing well.

Water check shows zero nitrite and amonia, 20 nitrate. pH is high, 8.2; that's just what I get from the tap.

[Holly9937]

ron, how do you acclimate the fish? That could be a problem if the ph is drastically different from what your tank is from the store... but neons just aren't the hardiest fish either

[happychem]

I don't believe that this is an issue of pH. Most likely a combination of bad lfs stock/care and a biofilter marginalized by time spent without power (i.e. food).

I've not had any problem with neons bought from one lfs around here that quaranteens all new arrivals for at least 2 weeks and no fish are sold unless the whole quaranteen tank is healthy and alive for a good week. However, from other shops I've had them drop like flies.

The other thing is that I've never had a problem with them when introducing them to a tank (even new) with an adequate biofilter. In the case of the newest tank it was a 10 g with a filter/sponge from an established 20 g. Of course, they've all been eaten one by one by a hungry krib (it's an office tank, so no food over the weekend). At first I suspected that it might be neons dieing off one by one, but it seemed strange that they'd only die on the weekend and never show any signs of malaise or illness during the week when I feed fairly heavily (relative to my other tanks). But that's plenty of digression.

I suspect that now that you've got a handle on the tank that you'll have more success with them. Oh yeah, test strips, ugh. Keep their container well sealed and in a dark place when not in use and they'll last a little longer and be more reliable. When you get a chance, replace them with a liquid test kit.

[ronfl]

ron, how do you acclimate the fish? That could be a problem if the ph is drastically different from what your tank is from the store... but neons just aren't the hardiest fish either

I float them in the tank for about 30 minutes then dip them out with net and dump in tank.

I guess I need to start adding 1/2 cup (1/4 cup?) or so of tank water to fish bag every 30 minutes? every hour? What's your opinion? I would prefer not to have to use the drip method referred to earlier.

[Holly9937]

It never hurts to acclimate the fish slowly, but like HC said there could certainly be more going on. I usually float the bag for 20 minutes or so, then pour the bag into a bucket, and add half a cup of tank water every 5-10 minutes for 1/2 hour-45 minutes, then net the fish into the tank...

[happychem]

It takes days for a fish to adjust to changed water chemistry, so I think that your biggest issue isn't acclimation, it's something else.

[swinneyw]

my p h is high 8.4 and my water is very soft its well water i've had good luck with my neons

[KarlTh]

The thread which rose from the grave. Notice RTR up there talking sense; shame the pH myths and lfs ignorance are as widespread now as they were three years ago.

[DrNo]

The thread which rose from the grave. Notice RTR up there talking sense; shame the pH myths and lfs ignorance are as widespread now as they were three years ago.

LOL, from 2005 all the way back. Quite a resurrection.

"Cardinals are even more sensitive to pH than neons. My LFS will not even sell them to you without a water sample that they can test to make sure your pH is 6.4 or less."

WOW

[amosf]

tetra can be hard.. but have kept many for long periods in 8.5 pH... that said I choose different fish types as they are a pain...

[calivivarium1]

its AAALLLLIIIIIIVVVEE! Igor, I have done it! I have created life from a dead thread!

[swinneyw]

i have corys and neons and my p h is 8.4 and the water is very soft its well water and my fish are doing very well i don't do anything to change my water its probably something else you are doing or not doing

[itsanobsession]

doesnt high ph contradict soft water.

ive had some troble with a cardinals and blue tetras in my tanks at my apartment and my ph runs around 8.0. they seem to do ok and eat and everything and i come home and find one dead. ended up losing all over a month.

[jpappy789]

pH and GH are not directly related.

[KarlTh]

doesnt high ph contradict soft water.

.

Nope. A solution of sodium hydroxide in distilled water is as soft as it's possible to be but highly alkaline.

[colinsk]

Nope. A solution of sodium hydroxide in distilled water is as soft as it's possible to be but highly alkaline.

Sometimes I hate our language...

The pH would be very high (alkaline) however it would have no alkalinity. This solution would have no buffering and would be very unstable. As it absorbed CO2 from the air the pH would steadly drop until it was neutral again.

[KarlTh]

I know. I hate the way "alkalinity" is used in water chemistry. But bench sodium hydroxide solution is pretty stable; it tends towards a pH of 14; I don't think even saturated with carbonic acid it would reach neutral.

[geekpryde]

I purchased 6 neons after my tank cycled, and I had one die each day for five daysm until there was only one left. That one fish then survived another week, but I felt bad for him since he was all alone, and he still looked a little sickly, so I brought him to my LFS and they accepted him into the "Hospital" tank. I dont think I will try Neons again, since I have read, and have heard to my LFS, that about only 1 in 10 Neons survive. My water chemisty was and is fine, and they were slowly acclimated to the tank as they should be, so I dont think it was anything I did wrong. It's too bad, since these fish look really nice in a school.