Newbies: Starting a tank? Plants actually help!

[Ms.Bubbles]

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to let other aquarium "newbies" know of my good experience with putting lots of plants in a new uncycled tank. I put some fast-growing anacharis & valisnaria in at the very beginning when I added the fish, and so far (3 weeks later) my ammonia levels are still barely registering with 25% weekly water changes.

For those who have to 'cycle' a tank with fish, adding plants seems to really help! There is a little pruning involved, and the adding of fertilizer to the water changes, but the effort seems well worth it, if it reduces fish stress. :)

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

Out of curiosity, what are your nitrite and nitrate readings?

[Ms.Bubbles]

Right now, I'm testing only for ammonia...from what I understand, nitrite (and later nitrate) doesn't arrive until after ammonia-eating bacteria arrive, so I figure as long as there's still ammonia, I 'm not ready to test for nitrite...

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

Test for Nitrite and Nitrate...

[Ms.Bubbles]

Can you explain the reasoning behind testing for nitrite at this point? I'm not sure I understand...

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

Just because you have ammonia present, doesnt mean that you dont have nitrites starting to take hold...The only way to know is to check...Im just curious about the numbes with the plants present

[Ms.Bubbles]

Yes, I agree that nitrites may be starting to take hold, but do you think that they could actually be at toxic levels (worth measuring) as long as their is still measurable amounts of ammonia present?

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

The only way to know IS TO TEST. Test for both nitrites and nitrates

[Ms.Bubbles]

The cool thing is that the plants have kept ammonia spikes down :)

[Raskolnikov]

Yes, I agree that nitrites may be starting to take hold, but do you think that they could actually be at toxic levels (worth measuring) as long as their is still measurable amounts of ammonia present?

Absolutely. Nitrite is acutely toxic to fish; it takes very little to harm/kill them. The presence of any nitrite in your water decreases the efficiency of fish respiration by compromising hemoglobin. Sublethal levels of nitrite can also increase the susceptibility of your fish to bacterial diseases.

[Ms.Bubbles]

That's interesting to know. I was told that nitrite is not really an issue until the 1st stage of cycling is complete, that is, when ammonia goes down to Zero.

[Raskolnikov]

Nitrite is an issue whenever it is present.

[NatakuTseng]

Both ammonia and nitrites are extremely toxic to fish. ANY amount is unsafe for them. Just because the fish are not showing stress, does not mean they are not being harmed by it.

[Ms.Bubbles]

I think we may have gone a little off topic here, so I'll go back to my original point...

I want to let other newbies know (if they don't already) that putting a lot of fast-growing plants into a new, uncycled tank that contains fish can really help keep the ammonia down, to the point where, with weekly water changes, it barely registers at all!

If plants can do this with ammonia, imagine what they can do with nitrites & nitrates :)...

[daveedka]

If plants can do this with ammonia, imagine what they can do with nitrites & nitrates

To the best of my knowledge plants take up very little if any nitrites. Since they do take up ammonia, and you still have detectable levels, it is somewhat likely that nitrites are slowly building in your tank, if they aren't now then they definately will be. Plants do consume nitrates, so unless you are dosing nitrogen you probably won't see a lot of nitrate. Either way Testing is a must, nitrites can build rather quickly and as stated are very toxic.

Plant cycling or silent cycling is used by many. The key for newbies lies in the knowledge and experience it takes to keep healthy plants. Without adequate light and or ferts, plants can compound problems more than they help. in your case, the plants are helpful, and in the case of anyone with some plant knowledge and experience plant cycleing is a great method. However it can be disaterous for many newbies who don't yet know which plants are ideal for the job, or how to keep those plants healthy.
A properly run plant cycle should show no signs of ammonia whatsoever. The concept is to use the plants to uptake the ammonia and protect your fish. the bacteria will still estabilish in small numbers, but they do not require detectable amounts of ammonia to do this. If you should decide later to remove plants or reduce plant mass you will want to do this very slowly to prevent a mini-cycle.

Given the correct types of plants, adequate light and balaced ferts, Plant cycling is great. It is not something I would necessarily reccomend to newbies with little or no experience.
Dave

[Ms.Bubbles]

Just an update:

Tested for nitrites.....O (zero)
Ammonia................less than 0.6 mg/litre :)

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

I dont want new people too assume that using plants in an uncycled tank is the silver bullet...No sign of nitrites can me 2 things, unfortunately if you have not tested for nitRATE you cannot get the full picture

Scenario 1) No nitirtes have developed because the plants are using almost all the ammonia for themselves...This could significantly prolong your cycling.
You should of had some nitrites present by now...

Scenario 2) You may have a cycled tank and their are NitrATES present, that are converting toxic nitrITE to a safer form. Unless you test, you wont know...Plants do little to lower nitrite/nitrates if anything at all, so i tend to go with scenario one, your tank has not yet started to cycle...

What this means is, you must be extremely cautious with adding any stock...Without the nitrates present, it could cause a viscious ammo spike and kill your tank off...If you do go to add more, do so slowly...Perhaps one fish every 10 days or so until the nitrites/nitates start to take hold.

Listen to daveedka..He has given you alot of good advice that hopefully yourself and others can use.

[daveedka]

Scenario 1) No nitirtes have developed because the plants are using almost all the ammonia for themselves...This could significantly prolong your cycling.
You should of had some nitrites present by now...


Actually the cylce speed will be the same unless every single bit of available ammonia is being used. this would be extremely uncommon (I think impossible) the bacteria always estabilish at roughly the same rate. Ammonia levels only dictate the size of the end result colony. So my guess is the cycle is moving along as fast as it ever does.



Scenario 2) You may have a cycled tank and their are NitrATES present, that are converting toxic nitrITE to a safer form. Unless you test, you wont know...Plants do little to lower nitrite/nitrates if anything at all, so i tend to go with scenario one, your tank has not yet started to cycle...


In my mind this would be the likely scenario. Plant do in fact uptake Nitrates, buit as I understand it they do not uptake nitrites. Depending on how much ammonia was converted, nitrites may or may not be detectable, and may or may not have already been processed to nitrates.


What this means is, you must be extremely cautious with adding any stock...Without the nitrates present, it could cause a viscious ammo spike and kill your tank off...If you do go to add more, do so slowly...Perhaps one fish every 10 days or so until the nitrites/nitates start to take hold.


Bingo on this quote. It can't be said enough. Essentially your situation is good, but there is a big potential for disaster. Add stock slowly, keep your plant mass high, and keep your plants healthy. If you take care of your plants they will in turn take care of your fish. If you plants start struggling right now, your fish will suffer the consequences.
And BTW anachris is about as good as any plant there is for plant cycling. It hogs nitrogen, it is not picky about other nutrients, and it grows rapidly in most light conditions. it will grow rooted or floating, and can be split at any point and continue to thrive. It is good that you happened to use this plant in your efforts, having the right plant can make or break a plant cycle.
Dave

[Ms.Bubbles]

It's great to know that plants can help to keep ammonia spikes down during the early stages of a new tank's cycling process (no mention of silver bullets by me)...even better that they also take up nitrates later in the cycle too!

I agree that anacharis is an easy plant to start with. I have no experience with aquarium plants, yet this stuff is growing fast & doesn't mind being pruned, moved, floated, whatever.

I'm assuming that my tank has not yet cycled, due to the presence of ammonia. I plan to keep my eye on the levels while doing 25% water changes weekly. I'm just glad the plants are there to help while the tank does its thing...

[coffeegurlo]

im thinking of adding live plants instead of using my fakers.

but im curious tho, my nitrate/nitrite is 0 and PH is 7.5 . but my amnonia level is very high.


is there a reason why amnonia is high while the others are low? so if i add live plants will that decrease my amnonia while keeping my nitrate/nitrite levels close to 0??


please help!! thanks! :dive:

[abnscout82]

I agree that plants are a great way to help with the water in your tank. I do have to disagree that they are difficult to take care of. I put plants in my tank with absolutely no knowledge about them, back when i had my 10 gallon. I also bought a flora-glo bulb for my hood. They are still healthy, and probably happier since i moved up to my 55 gallon. Oh yeah, substrate helps a lot too.

[OrionGirl]

coffeegurlo--give us more about your tan--when it was setup, what's in it, how big it is, your maintenance routine, filters, etc. High ammonia is very bad--likely means it's a new tank.

[Ms.Bubbles]

abnscout82,
You're quite right--keeping plants in the tank doesn't have to be complicated. With minimum lighting (9 watts compact fluorescent in a 3 gallon tank) & a monthly dose of fertilizer, I have kept anacharis & vals easily, the only work required being to prune away the heavy plant growth!
I think the secret is to pick easy-care, fast-growing, low-light plants to start.

coffeegurlo,
Is your tank new? It's common to have high ammonia with no nitrite/nitrates in the early stages of a tank's 'cycle'.

It's interesting to witness the effect of plants on a new tank. I started my tank about 5 weeks ago, & am still getting barely-registering ammonia readings...I have NEVER had ammonia spikes, & my nitrites are 0 (haven't tested nitrates).
I have no idea where this tank stands in the cycling process, since I'm still getting ammonia, but 0 nitrites. Perhaps a planted tank never really "cycles"????

[daveedka]

I agree that plants are a great way to help with the water in your tank. I do have to disagree that they are difficult to take care of. I put plants in my tank with absolutely no knowledge about them, back when i had my 10 gallon. I also bought a flora-glo bulb for my hood. They are still healthy, and probably happier since i moved up to my 55 gallon. Oh yeah, substrate helps a lot too.

You're quite right--keeping plants in the tank doesn't have to be complicated. With minimum lighting (9 watts compact fluorescent in a 3 gallon tank) & a monthly dose of fertilizer, I have kept anacharis & vals easily, the only work required being to prune away the heavy plant growth!


Lets think about what is being said here folks. We have a situation of 3 wpg Cf lighting in a tank, and one of the fastest growing nutrient hogs in the hobby. 3wpg CF lighting is far from minimum, and higher than most out of the box tank hood combo's will give you. The next person to read this thread may not happen into a situation this lucky and without some basic knowledge they could easily set themselves up for disaster.

Lets say they read that plants are great for a cycle so they go buy some annubias and a couple of swords and some anachris for their 20 g with one 18" (15 watt) NO florescent bulb or worse yet an incandescent hood. The sword leaves begin to wilt almost immediatly because the plant they bought was grown immersed and will have to develope new submerse growth leaves, the anachris only grows well when floating under the light because it requires some significant light, and the annubias start dieing off within a week because there isn't enough iron or pottassium to support them. We now have a new in-experienced plant keeper with a tank full of fish and decaying plant matter wondering why their fish are dead.

It is not a bad thing to cycle with plants, it definately is not a bad thing to happen into an easy maintenance ideal situation with a planted tank. Plants can be reasonably simple and or very complicated depending on what you plan to use them for, what type of plants, etc.
A blanket statement without information about the entire situation is a dangerous thing especially for in-experienced hobbyists. Very few out of the box tank and hood combo's come with high light levels. A 3 gallon tank can't help but have a decent light level. no one makes a 1.5 watt CF bulb. A ten with the same bulb is a problem. and most manufactured hoods are pretty low in the Watts per gallon range. Additionally when we use plants to cycle the tank we are demanding that they uptake the ammonia produced by the fish. Even if the plants survive and do well, they may not grow fast enough to uptake all of the ammonia. In the situation outlined here, we still have high ammonia levels despte the plants. Nitrogen (ammonia or nitrate) is one of three macro nutrients that plants require, aside from macro nutrients they require light and co2 and several micro nutrients. Sometimes people happen into an easy situation and a good balance of all needed nutrients. But it is dangerous to say that is always the case. Some one of those nitrients, light or carbon are limiting the plants ability to use all of the ammonia.
Outside of cycling, a person can go the trial and error route and learn about all of these items as needed, and if needed.
When used during cycling, the health of the fish is a concern and if anything goes amiss, and there is almost always a learning curve.

As said earlier, the bacteria still grows, and the nitrogen cycle still estabilishes. It will do so in about the same time (4-6 weeks), but you will have a much smaller colony due to the plants uptaking a good bit of your ammonia. My concern is that with readable levels of ammonia nitrItes will be produced at readable levels as well. Since plants don't uptake nitrite, they may build up in the tank while waiting for the bacteria colony to grow. It is possible in a new tank to never see an ammonia spike and then have nitrite levels climb very high. You will need to watch nitrite closely at all times. It usually climbs rapidly once it starts climbing.

Also you posted an ammonia reading of < 0.6 Depending on how much less than 0.6 you actually are, your fish will likely be affected. most folks reccomend nothing greater than 0.5 and that is really pushing things as far as potential gill damage goes. 0.25 mg/l ammonia is cause for concern in my mind when fish are in the tank

I am very glad things are going fairly well, I am glad you are learning and sharing what you are learning. All I'm trying to say ( for the benifit of others reading this) is that there is far more too this than the blanket statemnt that plants will help with the cycle. There are too many vairiables and considerations for that statement to stand alone.

Without all of the information, it's a shot in the dark and can be disasterous. Keep an eye on things, try to get the ammonia level down a bit and enjoy your tank.
dave

[RobertA]

Lets think about what is being said here folks. We have a situation of 3 wpg Cf lighting in a tank, and one of the fastest growing nutrient hogs in the hobby. 3wpg CF lighting is far from minimum, and higher than most out of the box tank hood combo's will give you. The next person to read this thread may not happen into a situation this lucky and without some basic knowledge they could easily set themselves up for disaster.

Lets say they read that plants are great for a cycle so they go buy some annubias and a couple of swords and some anachris for their 20 g with one 18" (15 watt) NO florescent bulb or worse yet an incandescent hood. The sword leaves begin to wilt almost immediatly because the plant they bought was grown immersed and will have to develope new submerse growth leaves, the anachris only grows well when floating under the light because it requires some significant light, and the annubias start dieing off within a week because there isn't enough iron or pottassium to support them. We now have a new in-experienced plant keeper with a tank full of fish and decaying plant matter wondering why their fish are dead.

It is not a bad thing to cycle with plants, it definately is not a bad thing to happen into an easy maintenance ideal situation with a planted tank. Plants can be reasonably simple and or very complicated depending on what you plan to use them for, what type of plants, etc.
A blanket statement without information about the entire situation is a dangerous thing especially for in-experienced hobbyists. Very few out of the box tank and hood combo's come with high light levels. A 3 gallon tank can't help but have a decent light level. no one makes a 1.5 watt CF bulb. A ten with the same bulb is a problem. and most manufactured hoods are pretty low in the Watts per gallon range. Additionally when we use plants to cycle the tank we are demanding that they uptake the ammonia produced by the fish. Even if the plants survive and do well, they may not grow fast enough to uptake all of the ammonia. In the situation outlined here, we still have high ammonia levels despte the plants. Nitrogen (ammonia or nitrate) is one of three macro nutrients that plants require, aside from macro nutrients they require light and co2 and several micro nutrients. Sometimes people happen into an easy situation and a good balance of all needed nutrients. But it is dangerous to say that is always the case. Some one of those nitrients, light or carbon are limiting the plants ability to use all of the ammonia.
Outside of cycling, a person can go the trial and error route and learn about all of these items as needed, and if needed.
When used during cycling, the health of the fish is a concern and if anything goes amiss, and there is almost always a learning curve.

As said earlier, the bacteria still grows, and the nitrogen cycle still estabilishes. It will do so in about the same time (4-6 weeks), but you will have a much smaller colony due to the plants uptaking a good bit of your ammonia. My concern is that with readable levels of ammonia nitrItes will be produced at readable levels as well. Since plants don't uptake nitrite, they may build up in the tank while waiting for the bacteria colony to grow. It is possible in a new tank to never see an ammonia spike and then have nitrite levels climb very high. You will need to watch nitrite closely at all times. It usually climbs rapidly once it starts climbing.

Also you posted an ammonia reading of < 0.6 Depending on how much less than 0.6 you actually are, your fish will likely be affected. most folks reccomend nothing greater than 0.5 and that is really pushing things as far as potential gill damage goes. 0.25 mg/l ammonia is cause for concern in my mind when fish are in the tank

I am very glad things are going fairly well, I am glad you are learning and sharing what you are learning. All I'm trying to say ( for the benifit of others reading this) is that there is far more too this than the blanket statemnt that plants will help with the cycle. There are too many vairiables and considerations for that statement to stand alone.

Without all of the information, it's a shot in the dark and can be disasterous. Keep an eye on things, try to get the ammonia level down a bit and enjoy your tank.
dave

I have a 20gal tank with a 19Watt florescent bulb which is cycling with 2 corys and a Java Fern plant. Is this bad?

[OrionGirl]

No--the plant is not being relied upon to process all the wastes in the system, and 20 gallons with 2 small cories is likely going to see very moderate ammonia spikes (which you can test and address via water changes).

[daveedka]

I have a 20gal tank with a 19Watt florescent bulb which is cycling with 2 corys and a Java Fern plant. Is this bad?
No--the plant is not being relied upon to process all the wastes in the system, and 20 gallons with 2 small cories is likely going to see very moderate ammonia spikes (which you can test and address via water changes).

Og hit the point exactly (as usual) there is nothing wrong with having plants or adding plants during a fishy cycle, they just should not be relied upon. Water testing and waterchanges on a very regular basis (once daily minumum testing) are still needed to protect the fish.

Dave

[abnscout82]

I agree, some plants are more difficult to care for, but hopefully anyone deciding to buy a plant asks a couple of questions at their LFS. An analogy would be the different types of fish you can get for your aquarium. SOme are very high maintenence and delicate, then you have hardy fish. Always ask some questions when you go in to your LFS, but many plants are very easy to care for as well as a great way to start your tank. Most people new to the hobby DO NOT want to wait a couple of months to put fish in the tank. They want to fill it up and go buy some fish. Plants can aid in this, if a person is going to put fish in right away, there is not much we can say or do that will stop them. When I got my first 10 gallon, I put fish in the tank the very next day and they did well. I wish at the time I knew about what plants could do for the cycle. It will help the fish, and make it nicer for them.

One question: I have not priced them, that is why I am asking. The more difficult plants to care for: are they more expensive than your "garden variety" plants at your LFS?

[Ms.Bubbles]

Daveedka said: " We have a situation of 3 wpg Cf lighting in a tank...3wpg CF lighting is far from minimum...".

I remember asking the forum about my lighting situation, & was advised by several members that a 9 watt compact fluorescent is still considered low lighting, despite the fact that it fits the 3 watts-per-gallon rule. It is believed (by some) that the rule breaks down in smaller tanks. Are you suggesting that mine is a medium or high light tank? That would make a bit of a difference.

Also: "Lets say they read that plants are great for a cycle so they go buy some annubias and a couple of swords..."
I'm assuming that a newbie who reads about success with anacharis & vals would not then go out & buy annubias & swords, expecting the same results. I did research to determine which plants would likely work with my lighting setup, & I assume that others might do the same.

I enjoy learning from people's personal experience, and have noticed that there are differing approaches to keeping fish & plants, depending on who you ask. I'm sharing my very specific tank, fish, lighting info, so that people reading my post will understand that it is simply an observation specific to my situation (& therefore useful for similar conditions). I hope this comes across. :)

TANK SIZE: 3 gallon
LIGHTING: 9 watt compact fluorescent
PLANTS: 2 bunches of Anacharis, 1 bunch of valisneria (& growing!)
FERTILIZER: Nutrafin Iron-enriched Plant Gro, once every 3 weeks
FISH: 1 betta

almost 6 weeks after starting tank...

Ammonia level: still just barely registering (less than 0.6 mg/L)
Nitrite levels: 0

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

For the millionth time Bubbles, unless you test for NITRATES, you have no idea how fast or slow your cycle is moving along...After 6 weeks and only one fish that tiny tank should be done cycling...Report your observations, just be sure to give a full ACCURATE picture of what is happening....

[Ms.Bubbles]

Again with the nitrates? MQP, although you are sure that my tank should be cycled after 6 weeks, I know that my tank is NOT done cycling, because I'm still reading ammonia, which wouldn't be present in a fully cycled tank. I don't need to see nitrates to know this, because I can see there is ammonia & no nitrites.

MQP, I know that you would like to see a nitrate reading, but that doesn't mean my information isn't accurate, it just doesn't contain a nitrate reading. We can come to similar conclusions using different methods, yes?
Also, if accuracy is of importance to you, this is Ms. Bubbles, not Bubbles (who is a different member of the forum). :)

[pbrack]

btw, doesn't the 3 watts per galon rule underestimate the amount of light in a small tank? Since the tank is not very deep, I think it means that you have a lot more "efficient" light, since not a whole lot of light gets refracted.

Correct me if I'm wrong though :)

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

I have officially thrown in the towel...Good luck to you

[daveedka]

I did research to determine which plants would likely work with my lighting setup, & I assume that others might do the same.


This is the point of my comments and information. People don't always research. If they read that plants help, and just go buy some plants they like then they are set up for disaster. If they do their research and learn what they need to know then they will be prepared. One thing is for certain. It is never safe to assume that new folks in this hobby will research anything completely. Most of us new or old alike get about half of the information we need before we do something and we get the rest when things go wrong.



I remember asking the forum about my lighting situation, & was advised by several members that a 9 watt compact fluorescent is still considered low lighting, despite the fact that it fits the 3 watts-per-gallon rule. It is believed (by some) that the rule breaks down in smaller tanks. Are you suggesting that mine is a medium or high light tank? That would make a bit of a difference.


The rule does break down somewhat with smaller tanks, but 3 wpg is at least medium lighting in any situation. and as compared to a 10g with one 15w bulb or a 20g with the same 15 watt bulb it is definately not minuimum. The point still remains that there is much more to know than just saying plants will help with the cycle and once weekly water changes are adequate with plants during a fishy cycle. Your information is not inaccurate, just very very incomplete in the big picture. Partial informatin is a good place to start research, otherwise it is dangerous. I am only trying to help bring the big picture to light so the danger is gone.
Dave

[Ms.Bubbles]

daveedka,
Caution is a good thing. It's just that I have seen a lot of newbies scared away from the help that plants could bring to a cycling tank because of complicated advice about substrate, CO2, etc. which isn't always necessary. Newbies give up on putting plants in, & the fish suffer unnecessarily. I wish to offer some encouragement so that others may know of the benefits available, because noone else seems to be talking about how much plants can help.

I came across a quote by floridadriftwood.com regarding aquarium plants, they say: "Plants readily absorb both nitrite and nitrate". If this is the case, perhaps it would explain the absence of nitrite from my tank after 6 weeks (altering the normal cycling process).