Hey Joe - study casting doubt on abduction "memories"

[Chill]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051026/od_nm/aliens_dc;_ylt=AgHgepOmxahNDR8VdSrLLJGs0NUE;_ylu=X 3oDMTA3NW1oMDRpBHNlYwM3NTc-

Of course 19 interviews is hardly an exhaustive study

or maybe this guy is an alien trying to trick us.

[125gJoe]

Great topic!

Let's look at what this "experts" thoughts are...

Let me quote: " a psychology expert at London's Goldsmiths College says these experiences are proof of the frailty of the human memory, rather than evidence of life in other galaxies.

As we see, this "expert" doesn't even know what the word, 'evidence' means.
So called, "abductees" have had "experiences" certainly not 'evidence' ...

This debunker 'trick' is "expert manipulation" to make people with strange experiences look like idiots or fools.

The more the debunkers throw around catchy phrases, like "little green men", "martians", "spindly arms and big heads", etc... the more the whole issue becomes a joke. It's a play on words that misleads many from the real issue. The misuse of the word "evidence" works so well in this article.

Back to the article...

Quote: "Several thousand people worldwide claim to have had such close encounters, researchers say."

And you know what, most of them claim to have seen nearly the same "creatures".
Why is it they are not mostly abducted by their math teacher, or their dentist with all those evil probing tools? Why not 'anglerfish' abductees?


Great article!
Very misleading.
What a disappointment from London's Goldsmiths College...

;)

[Raskolnikov]

Careful - knit-picking the use of a commonplace word is a tactic employed with great fervor by those with nothing significant to use in countering opponents of their own beliefs. You're using a simple parlour trick to try and topple the credibility of your perceived opponent, and you don't even have an actual quote to work with. Regardless:

While the supposed similarites in these "experiences" could possibly be construed as evidence that they are real, it's just as likely that it is in fact the preconceived notion that this is what an alien experience is like from hearing of others' accounts. When I say "aliens", the image that comes to most people's minds is the classic "Grey" appearence - not because they've been abducted, but because subconsciously this is what we've been conditioned to think that extraterrestrial aliens look like through folk lore and media.

If I have a hallucination involving Santa Claus, I would imagine him with a large beard wearing red clothing with white trim - not because I've seen him - but because this is what I assume that he would look like if he did exist. This is the typical Santa Claus description, made popular through stories, movies, and advertisement.




The Easter Bunny!

(There, I'm sure that the majority of you pictured some sort of long-eared hairy individual, possibly with eggs in tow, in a basket of sorts; maybe even decked out in pastel. If we compared the physical description that enough of give for The Easter Bunny, we'll find a lot of similarities that may seem uncanny. Was it because you have seen The Easter Bunny? Was it because you've had a close encounter with it? Or was it, in fact, because we have a notion of what it would look like if it actually exists?)



My apologies to any kiddos under ten for the use of such analogies ;)

[125gJoe]

... ..and you don't even have an actual quote to work with. ...
Careful, :) ..
I did quote, from an actual article, from an "expert".

Ok, that's cleared up nice and neat.

"..parlour trick.. .."
Funny, I just heard that in the DVD release of "Batman Begins" ..

..;)

--------------------

Easter Bunny.. ok..
Bozo the Clown..
Captain Kangaroo..
a salt shaker..

Sure.. we can get the mental picture.

Now, the issue is, why are thousands having basically the same type of 'abduction experience'? What ad, movie, etc. has so generously provided the abduction experience. Where does sleep paralysis come into play to give these people their experiences?

Are you saying "abductions and aliens" are one in the same due to what's taught, or watched? Why aren't thousands and thousands seeing the "monolith", or bad dreams of apes swinging bones around on 2001 a Space Odyssey?

I like SciFi... Guess that makes me soon to be an abductee?
I don't buy that scenario.. Nope it won't work, not for me.

How about all the shark movies? Why not a "shark paranoia" phenomena?

See how it doesn't work..?

[125gJoe]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051026/od_nm/aliens_dc;_ylt=AgHgepOmxahNDR8VdSrLLJGs0NUE;_ylu=X 3oDMTA3NW1oMDRpBHNlYwM3NTc-

Of course 19 interviews is hardly an exhaustive study

.....I agree with that!

Here's another quote --yes, a quote
Quote ;) : "Many of the alien experiences could be explained by sleep paralysis, a condition in which a person is awake and aware of the surroundings but is unable to move.

Like I said before, why not huge sharks devouring them at night? A bad dentist trip? Noooo, it has to be the 'alien abuction' dream - nothing else.
That so called reasoning is laughable!


Also, many will always have a closed mind on this whole topic. Nothing will change that. But, there are so many "incidents" that have forever changed the minds of many people.

That's another topic... And maybe somewhere else. ;)

And another thing... LOL

It's late - maybe I'll dream some real good stuff!

[Raskolnikov]

Careful, :) ..
I did quote, from an actual article, from an "expert".

Ok, that's cleared up nice and neat.


Not even remotely. You're quoting an article written by a 3rd person, not a quote from the party in question.


Now, the issue is, why are thousands having basically the same type of 'abduction experience'? What ad, movie, etc. has so generously provided the abduction experience.
I'm not even sure where to begin, there are so many.
Books, (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0140195270.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,32,-59_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg) Videogames, (http://www.vagusnet.com/screenshots/uploaded/1112294583-destroy_ps2_09.GIF) commercially produced costumes, (http://www.fantasycostume.net/fantasy/images/Masks/AlienMaskHard.jpg) clothing, (http://www.shaktiweb.com/galaxy_alien.html) art, (http://www.tattoos.co.nz/gallery/187_500.jpg) television, (http://www.xfroadrunners.com/epimages/season4/elmundo/elmundo107.jpg) etc... (http://www.glowzone.com/media/alien_keychain_nu.jpg)


Where does sleep paralysis come into play to give these people their experiences?
I don't know how sleep paralysis works, nor do I claim to. I'm just trying to keep an open mind in all of this.

Are you saying "abductions and aliens" are one in the same due to what's taught, or watched? Why aren't thousands and thousands seeing the "monolith", or bad dreams of apes swinging bones around on 2001 a Space Odyssey?
I'm not implying that these so-called "abductions" have any correlation to the possibility that life (possibly advanced life) exists elsewhere in the universe. The presence of absence of other-worldly life forms is not what I am questioning (nor did I get the impression that the article was) - it is the validity of these "close encounters" that are suspect.
Furthermore, the examples that you've given (Planet of the Apes, Space Oddyssey...) are movies, yes, but the concepts therein are specific only to the movies themselves. They are not a combination of folk lore, media attention, etc...that the alien phenomenon is, and thus irrelevant to the cultural examples that I brought up earlier.



I like SciFi... Guess that makes me soon to be an abductee?
No clue where you got that from.


How about all the shark movies? Why not a "shark paranoia" phenomena?
In fact, following the release of perhaps the most famous shark movie of them all (Jaws), there was in fact a massive shark paranoia. These creatures were slaughtered en mass out of fear due to the suggestions of a movie/book. Benchley himself has spoken out on the subject (I wish I could link something for you, but I saw him on television when he was speaking about the after effects of his work.)

[Raskolnikov]

Here's another quote --yes, a quote
Quote ;) : "Many of the alien experiences could be explained by sleep paralysis, a condition in which a person is awake and aware of the surroundings but is unable to move.

Like I said before, why not huge sharks devouring them at night? A bad dentist trip? Noooo, it has to be the 'alien abuction' dream - nothing else.
That so called reasoning is laughable!

There's a quote. Not laughable, however. Let's assume that more people fall asleep in their beds or vehicles than in say...the ocean. I'm sure we can agree on that, right? Thus, the individual is "awake and aware of their surroundings", surroundings that are not condusive to shark attack, nor sharks. The dentist? Maybe if the individual gets regular house-calls from their dentist, otherwise these surroundings wouldn't be linked very much with the dentist. These surroundings are much more condusive to a classic "abduction" scenario, though, where an alien presence invisibly subdues a victim, and may or may not reveal themselves as well.
Parallels could be drawn to the conviction in which young children may claim to see the boogey-man. In most adults' psyche, the boogey-man isn't a viable entity, but something else unexplained and potentially ominous (extraterrestrial life forms...?) may serve the same purpose.

I'm not trying to say that alien abductions are completely concocted (whether conciously, subconciously, or both). That being said, I'm also unconvinced that they may indeed be real. Slamming the new views presented in that article outright because they disagree with a preconceived notion seems extraordinarily biased, though.

Also, many will always have a closed mind on this whole topic.

Absolutely...and some may have started with an open mind, but the door swung shut, quietly and unnoticed. I get the impression sometimes that you've convinced yourself so thoroughly of your open-mindedness regarding alien abductions that the potential for the phenomenon to be explained in a fashion unrelated to extraterrestrials has become an impossibility to you.
I thought that you could use someone to play a little devil's advocate with you tonight - keep you fresh. ;)

[mvigor]

I think that the "abduction by aliens" dream or memory is shared by so many people because it's an instinctual part of our brains for whatever reason, born in for so many generations.

I suggest you re-read Arthur C. Clarke's book "Childhood's End" for one viewpoint on why entire species have these folklore images in their heads.

[Chill]

Sleep paralysis is used to explain the "Old Hag" a widespread Newfoundland tradition of being attacked in your sleep by maleovent presence often an Old Witch or Hag that sits on your chest and cuts off your breath. The antropologists have limited the tradition of the old hag to sleep paralysis type events but local beliefs involved other sleeping events as well. I experinced night terrors as a child and my father referred to these experiences as the old hag.

Around here you are much more likley to be abducted by the fairies than aliens. No not maurading gangs of homosexuals but the supernatural kind. There is a strong cultural attachment to the fairy here and there are plenty of stories of fairy abductions. More so in my parents generation but everyone has heard the stories. It's intersting how a more isolated culture maintained a stronger link to the old myths, but it makes a point for the cultural imprint as explanation for commonalities in abduction stoires.

I'm not saying I don't belive in aliens. I find it best not only to keep an open mind but to also to have a healthy respect for many things I don't necessarily believe in.

Just to keep the debate rolling here's another link to a study on alien abductions and the possible link to sleep paralysis:


http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/abduction.html

[125gJoe]

Not even remotely. You're quoting an article written by a 3rd person, not a quote from the party in question.So -- your "rules" are, you cannot quote an article??

I had know idea... But just to start off by arguing. :D Got it....
Talk about knitpicking.. LOL
I'll quote what's relevant.

----

I don't know how sleep paralysis works, nor do I claim to. I'm just trying to keep an open mind in all of this. That's where you are missing the whole issue. The "expert" in the article claims sleep paralysis is the reason for the alien abduction experience. And that shows this "expert" does indeed have a closed mind.

Sleep paralysis = Alien abductions?
That is so funny! Glad this "expert" is not makin more 'astounding' ridiculous assumptions! It makes debunkers look silly... :D

Rask, if you were trying to be open minded on the subjuect, you wouldn't be so negative. :hi:

I guess the people in 3rd world countries that don't have TV, video games, and the "adbuction producing" machines don't count when they have the same type of abduction experience?

Someone should come up with a better reason to debunk these people rather than a 'sleep paralysis' problem....

[Emg]

I've experienced sleep paralysis not just once.....but 3 times in my life.....it's a very scary experience !!!

I've likened it not to aliens.....but demons trying to take possession.....not for the faint of heart, believe me !!! :eek:

If anyone is interested in hearing about them......I'd share....(*shiver*)....to this day I do not believe them to be hulicinations !

[125gJoe]

.... I get the impression sometimes that you've convinced yourself so thoroughly of your open-mindedness regarding alien abductions that the potential for the phenomenon to be explained in a fashion unrelated to extraterrestrials has become an impossibility to you.....Sorry I come across so bluntly...
I read the article looking for the answer the "expert" supposedly has. And, in my openmindedness, he does not have an answer. I hope they don't pay this guy much. :D

... ...
I thought that you could use someone to play a little devil's advocate ..Again, sorry I may come across to sharp and direct. To me, the article proved nothing, but did evectively as propaganda on the side of "debunkers".

On this entire topic, the word "evidence" should not be thrown around so lightly...

[125gJoe]

delete..
double post..

[125gJoe]

..oops double post..

[Emg]

Lol Joe...having problems with your clicky thing ??

[DeVitaf]

If anyone is interested in hearing about them......I'd share....(*shiver*)....to this day I do not believe them to be hulicinations !

I have never heard of this before :(...

Do you wake up aware and just can't move any parts of your body? That would scare the heck out of me :(.

[125gJoe]

Lol Joe...having problems with your clicky thing ??YES --- :D

It's been abducted... Glad today is my Friday!

[125gJoe]

I've experienced sleep paralysis not just once.....but 3 times in my life.....it's a very scary experience !!!

I've likened it not to aliens.....but demons trying to take possession.....not for the faint of heart, believe me !!! :eek:...Thanks for posting about that! That is scary!

My bet is, if I had 19 (like the expert in the article..), sleep paralysis subjects, none of them would tell of alien abductions. Now I need 18 more, unbiased subjects. :D

---------------

.. ..
I'm not trying to say that alien abductions are completely concocted (whether conciously, subconciously, or both). ... Slamming the new views presented in that article outright because they disagree with a preconceived notion seems extraordinarily biased, though....To me, the article 'slams' people who may have something exraordinary to offer the world. And, the experts should take a better look...

I happen to believe Travis Walton's story, and so did the lie detectors.

---------------

I almost forgot to follow up on the "shark paranoia" ...
When relating to the article, during sleep paralyisis, shark phobia while sleeping should have been an issue due to the movie Jaws years ago. It makes no sense that sleep paralysis produces the alien abduction scenario. Debunker article, debunked.

[Chill]

With the night terrors I never could remember what I was dreaming of or what I was afraid of. I had them on a regular basis for a long period of time as a child. I could be quite animated, talk, walk, even run. My eyes would be open but I would be asleep. If my parents tried to comfort me in this state I would struggle against them. Moving into adolescences I even swore at my father when he tried to wake me. Running around the house in a cold sweat, in absolute panic, eyes-wide open and spouting profanities - if my parents were superstitious they would have thought me possessed. Once awakened I could never remember what I was afraid of, only the numbness of pins and needles all over my body and particularly in my head. The only other thing was I seemed to recall something about trees, logs, and machinery but it was only the barest inkling and nothing I could ever make sense of. Perhaps in a past life I was a tree abducted by a logging company.

[Emg]

I have never heard of this before :(...

Do you wake up aware and just can't move any parts of your body? That would scare the heck out of me :(.


Oh yes....you wake up VERY aware that you are awake...you just can't move...at ALL !

The first time it happened I was about 15 and was tired so went to bed earlier than usual. For some reason I couldn't fall completely asleep and was sort of in a halfwake halfsleep faze....but then all of a sudden I was completely wide awake and just KNEW that something bad was happening....very scared ! but I couldn't move, couldn't even open my eyes....all I could think to do was start saying the Lord's Prayer.....as soon as I started to pray I had the sensation of laying on train tracks with a train roaring over me....it was a very loud roaring "whoooshing" sort of sound in my head and I felt like a giant vaccum cleaner was sucking something out of me. And then all of a sudden I was free and could move. I beat a hasty retreat downstairs just as fast as my legs would carry me.

The second time I was about 22 and was living in an old house. It was morning and I was alone in the house sleeping. While laying there I kept hearing footsteps but I knew that John had already left for work...but I couldn't get up to check it out..or even open my eyes. I'd drift off again and then wake up and not be able to move...kept hearing footsteps and then I got the sensation of being surrounded by "things"....and they were all hovering over me and I felt like an animal trapped in a cage...scared and angry at the same time..but I still couldn't get up or move. I don't remember how I got out of that one....but nasty experience !

The last time was about 10 years ago. Was sleeping on the couch when I went from being dead sound asleep to completely awake and alert...but I couldn't move ! I KNEW that there was an evil presence in the room with me, but this time there was no fear in me at all....because now I know the Lord... :) I lay there paralyzed and just declared Jesus my Lord and Savior and told it to go away....and it did.

I haven't been bothered since ! :D

[DeVitaf]

That would have freaked me out :(

[Emg]

Yeah, very scary....except for that last time.....I'm amazed at the total lack of fear in me on that one.......when you know who's in charge...and you know you belong to Him.....there's NOTHING those things can do to you that you don't allow.......There's just something about that Name !!! http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0206.gif

[mishi8]

I can believe the sleep paralysis reasoning, and instantly remembered the "Old Hag" tale...saw an interesting show not long ago about sleep paralysis...sounds absolutely terrifying!

Found an interesting article about sleep paralysis, which also touches on the subject of Alien Abductions (towards the end of the article): http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp

[125gJoe]

Sleep paralysis produces many 'scenarios', not just the alien abduction 'theme' - and I do believe some "abductions" are from SP. But, on the other hand, I believe there's something more to the alien abduction experience. Travis Walton (as I mentioned..).

From the article mishi8 found, ..quoting the article..

Quote: "The late Harvard psychiatrist John Mack fueled the hubbub by defending the accounts as descriptions of actual encounters with visitors from other planets."

Notice the negative connotation the word "hubbub" has on the subject. As if to dismiss it as a joke.

Anyway, this has been an interesting topic.

[125gJoe]

... :huh: (double post)

[Emg]

"Hufford, however, regards the intrusion of REM activity into awake moments as inadequate to explain sleep paralysis. Dream content during REM sleep varies greatly from one person to another, but descriptions of sleep paralysis are remarkably consistent. "I don't have a good explanation for these experiences," he says. "

[mishi8]

From the article mishi8 found, ..quoting the article..

Quote: "The late Harvard psychiatrist John Mack fueled the hubbub by defending the accounts as descriptions of actual encounters with visitors from other planets."

Notice the negative connotation the word "hubbub" has on the subject. As if to dismiss it as a joke.

Well, the article is from sciencenews.org and so will approach such topics with skepticism. For more skepticism check out this entry from the Skeptic's Dictionary: alien abduction (http://skepdic.com/aliens.html) :)

[Emg]

Well...I"ve always enjoyed the movie..."Close Encounters of the Third Kind"....lol.....about as close as I'll come to "believing" in aliens visiting earth...!

[125gJoe]

How do you like your mashed potatoes?

http://www.arnadal.no/film/images/closeenc.jpg

:D