Newbie in deep water

[DirkW]

Hi Y'all,

This is my first post so please be gentle. I've read most of the FAQs, but this is a big forum.

My 7 kids came back from a festival two weeks ago with 5 goldfish (against my mild objections). Two days in a gallon fish bowl and they where all belly-up. Last Sunday, my 10-year-old daughter talks me into walking into a pet store with her. The lady in there didn't know much about fish, but she knew at least that goldfish where too big for a 1 gallon bowl. She suggests a couple mollies. I think to myself, no big deal... fish and food round out to $7.50. We go home, drop them in the bowl with spring water, and everyone's happy.

Monday morning, there are two adult mollies and 9 fry. The kids are thrilled. I think to myself, I better learn something about keeping fish before they're all belly-up. I'm a computer geek, so research is something I do well.

Now it's Friday, and I still have two adult and 7 fry. I've spent about $40 on various food, gravel vac, heater, salt, test kit, live plants, etc. Did a 50% water change on wednesday and plan a 25% percent change today. Raising the water tempature about 1-2 degrees/day.

I'd like some opinions on my aquarium plants. I've budgeted about $150 for a 29-gallon tank. The plan is to cycle it for 2-3 weeks before introducing the two adult mollies. I want to eventually end up with a crowded brackish community with live plants that is relatively low maintenance. I know it will take some work to get there. I'm tentatively planning some swordtales, a couple catfish, a snail or two, and maybe some other scavangers.

I want an 80W hood with two timers; one turns on a single 20W tube, the other turns on the other three tubes (roughly simulating sunrise and sunset). If I can find the hood I want, I'll build it myself. I might use CO2 injection if necessary, but I'd rather not if I don't have to.

My questions are:
1) Should I use an under-gravel filter with potted plants, or put in a substrate?
2) Should I get a filter for my 1 gallon bowl (I plan to use it for spawning)?
3) What sort of mix of fish should I have? I'd like lots of color and variety.

[yohkos]

LOL, your kids created a fish monster! Have fun and good luck. I am not sure what plants do well in a brackish tank but I know they exist.

[OrionGirl]

First--this will not be a brackish setup. None of the fish you listed are brackish. You'll want to test your water--if you have really soft water, hardening it with some baking soda will help the mollies--but they do not need salt. Really. If you want plants, salt is bad--most plants can tolerate salt for a short time, but in the long run it's lethal. Nor is so called 'aquarium' or table salt capable of producing brackish conditions.

For your questions:

1) Depends on what kind of plants you want, and what other filtration you want. UGF are effective, but high maintenance. A better option would be pre-filtered reverse flow UGF, along with a HOB to actually capture solid wastes.

2) Yes.

3) A mix of mollies of the same body type would work, or you could go with swords or platies for a wider variety of colors.

[Holly9937]

Not sure how much research you've done on the whole cycling process, but you say you plan on "cycling it for 2-3 weeks" before adding the mollys.... If you are going to do a fishless cycle, it usually takes a bit longer than that...Maybe you were just being optimistic!??!! If you can find biospira, that is a great product that almost instantly cycles the tank and you could set up your tank right away. Also, have you actually bought a tank yet?? If not, check out ebay in your local area, you might be able to get a great deal that way on a used tank!!!
Good luck

[DirkW]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! I'm looking to buy a tank today. I've looked but haven't found any used in my area. I was hoping to speed the process by adding plants and water from my existing tank. Then again, my existing tank has only been going for a week.

[DirkW]

First--this will not be a brackish setup. None of the fish you listed are brackish. You'll want to test your water--if you have really soft water, hardening it with some baking soda will help the mollies--but they do not need salt. Really. If you want plants, salt is bad--most plants can tolerate salt for a short time, but in the long run it's lethal. Nor is so called 'aquarium' or table salt capable of producing brackish conditions.
Interesting... How much baking soda should I use? I have medium-hard water, but I haven't had it tested yet.

Having a brackish community is not as important as keeping the mollies happy.

[Holly9937]

Unfortunately, adding water, even if it was from a tank that had been set up for years, does little for the cycling process. There is a sticky at the top of this page you should check out, it will save you alot of grief in terms of getting the tank up and running!! Make sure to get test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at the very least before adding fish to the tank and getting things going. www.bigalsonline.com sells a master freshwater test kit for much cheaper than most stores, and are pretty good for other things too. www.drsfostersmith.com has some decent prices on fish stuff too!

[OrionGirl]

Test your water. Dosing for ANY reason without testing can be a crap shoot. If you don't have really soft water, the fish will probably be just fine without any modifications, so much easier on you.

[mykidsmylife]

It seems like you have done quite a bit of research so far. I would suggest really reading up on cycling...it could save you time and heartache for the kids when done right.
Do you have some kind of aeration on the 1 gallon bowl? You need some way to introduce O2 to the mollies. If you put a filter on the bowl make sure you have some sort of sponge over the intake or it will suck your fry right up into it. I think a small sponge filter would work well for your bowl until you can move them into the larger aquarium. I would also suggest daily water changes to your bowl for them...as close to 50% as possible. In that small a bowl toxins will build up quickly.
As for your new tank...go for as large as you possibly have space and the money for. I started with a "free" 40 gallon...dumped close to $200 to get it going, then it wasn't big enough and bought a 75 gallon! LOL.
I say if you can find biospira to add to the water...that would be great. When I used it in my tanks it didn't seem to instantly cycle though...it took a few weeks and it still cycled but in much less time then normal.
Welcome to the addiction!!!!

[phanmc]

Trying to fishless cycle with plants involve can be a headache, you won't get accurate readings. Try this setup:

If you are getting a 30g tank aim for about 50w of light, more than that and you have to think about CO2. This puts you into the low, medium low light plant category and will limit your plant choices somewhat. I recommend the following which should be easy to find:

anubias (barteri, nana, etc)
anacharis
hornwort
water sprite
cryptocoryne wendtii
milfoil
amazon sword
java moss
java fern
water wisteria

To start setting up your tank and put your lights on the timer, you'll want 10-12 hrs of daylight, buy the plants of your choice along with alot some of the following: hornwort, anacharis, or water sprite. You will want about 7-8 bunches of those plants in addition to your plants of choice, just to be on the safe side. If this is more plants than you want don't worry, you can remove them later when your tank is broken in. Plant your tank and introduce the mollies, they can't be doing any better in a 1g bowl.

The large amount of plants should keep the small numbers of fishes safe and you can slowly add another small group after a week. The important thing is to keep testing your water for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates every few days for a couple of weeks to make sure the plants are doing their job. Also keep an eye on the plants to make sure they're healthy and growing. You will want to do weekly water changes, for your fish and especially for your plants since tap water contains trace elements which they consume. After a month you can remove any excess plants you don't want.

UG filters, some love them and some hate them. I don't use a UG filter because I want my filter media to be easily accessible. A HOB power filter will do fine for a 30g tank. For the 1g fry bowl, check out the internal power filters.

[Puffernewbee]

Currently you have two mollies plus 7 fry in a 1 gallon bowl and you plan on leaving them there as you cycle a 29 gallon tank.

I would recommend that you go ahead and put the fish in the 29 gallon and do a fishy cycle. They will be safer from an ammonia spike in 29 gallons than 1. Just add whatever you have in the one gallon to the 29 gallon and you will have some starter bacteria.

[nursie]

Hate to telly you , but I think you budget may be a little low too...just like having kids..there are always extra expenses.

I agree with the low light plant selection. You don't need the higher prices lighting, but do need around 1.5 watts per gallon. I may have missed it..but you do need a heater. It's healthier for the fish if they are not crowded...I would be careful with stocking. Trying to change the ph in your water isn't necessarily a good idea, because it then fluctuates and is harder on the fish than leaving it alone. I would say if they reproduced in the water you have, they will probably be fine. Do get a test kit so you can monitor what is really going in instead of guessing.

[DirkW]

Well, I took the dive on a 29G tank kit, which includes a HOB filter. I also bought an UGF, a powerhead, and 25LBS of gravel. Maybe it's an overkill for a starter setup, but I want to end up with a crowded tank of healthy fish. My budget was too low, I spent about $200. And I know I'm not done.

In case you haven't noticed, I can be a little obsessive.

I bought a small power filter for the 1G. It cleared the water nicely, and the mollies seem much more at ease. I've done three 50% water changes this week, and all the levels look good. I'm keeping the mollies in the 1G for the fishless cycle and plan to keep up frequent water changes. Changing 0.5G is little effort. My PH level is 6.8 at the tap, which I think is a good thing. I add aquarium salt and let the water sit a few hours. The tank stays 68-70 degrees because the heater I bought isn't working well in such a small tank. I'm having trouble finding a heater for the 1G. I'm thinking of buying a cheap 2.5G. And maybe a third heater.

I've got to consider how to protect the fry from the water intake (thanks mykidsmylife).

I'm starting my fishless cycle with 6ppm (two tsp) pure ammonia and some starter bacteria from the tank kit (two tsp Clear Zyme, as per instructions on the bottle). I'm using both the 50W heater I bought for the 1G, plus the heater that came with the 30G to bring the heat as close to 90 degrees as I can. It seems to have topped out at about 86 degrees, and I'm considering dropping that back a little so I don't damage my heaters. As it reaches the end of the cycle, I'll slowly bring it back down to room temperature, and do an 80-90% water change. The last couple water changes I do in the 1G will be from the 30G tank.

Since I was in such a hurry to start the cycle, I didn't consider the placement of the HOB filter. I wanted to hang it on one side (it's in a corner), but once I got the hood out, I realized it doesn't work that way. It's too close to the wall to hang the filter on the back. I'll either have to move the tank when I do the big water change, modify the hood, or make my own hood. I'm leaving off the HOB filter for now. I should have all the bacteria I need in the gravel.

After researching live plants more, I'm not going to get too adventuresome until the tank is well established. Some of the low light options look interesting (thanks, phanmc). For now, I'll keep the light at 50W. I don't want to mess with CO2 yet, and plan to add plants once my nitrate levels shoot up.

[kveeti]

The last couple water changes I do in the 1G will be from the 30G tank.

Not a good idea. The end-result water from a fishless cycle would be high in nitrAtes. After a fishless cycle, you are supposed to do a very large water change (with treated water) before putting the fish in, because of the nitrates.

[Luke Jaywalker]

First--this will not be a brackish setup. None of the fish you listed are brackish.

mollies (http://www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0597&view_records=1) and swordtails (http://www.aquariacentral.com/species/db.cgi?db=fresh&uid=default&ID=0539&view_records=1) can't be brackish?

Two more entries that should be edited:

These fish thrive in brackishwater conditions, which is a mixture of fresh and salt water.

Swordtails often live in brackish waters, which is a combination of salt and fresh water.

I've also heard that swordtails can't actually change their sex as listed in their profile.

[DirkW]

Not a good idea. The end-result water from a fishless cycle would be high in nitrAtes. After a fishless cycle, you are supposed to do a very large water change (with treated water) before putting the fish in, because of the nitrates.
My plan was to do the 80-90% water change in the big tank, then start using that water to change with the small tank. But maybe it will be good enough just to put them in the big tank directly.

[DirkW]

I hadn't been counting the fry lately since I had put some live plants floating in the 1G tank. After reading mykidsmylife's post, I pulled out the filter and poured out its' contents into a bucket. The filter had been running for about 36 hours. Five fry where in the filter. :eek: Luckily, three where still swimming. I put those back into the bowl and they seem to be doing fine.

Obviously, I can't run the filter until I figure out how to protect the fry. I'm going to have to break down and get a 2.5G tank. I've got some ideas on fabricating a net surrounding the filter intake. The netting can't be too close to the intake without trapping fry.

On a lighter note, I was talking about my latest obsession to some friends. The husband had kept an aquarium for a couple years (fancy goldfish), but moved his fish to a pond in his back yard. He offered to give me his 29G tank with all the accessories. My wife doesn't want a second tank (yet). Hopefully she'll change her mind once the first is up and running.

I know it's only been a couple days, but I'm already tired of waiting for my tank to cycle. I dumped the rest of the Clear Zyme into the tank (four tsp). By Friday, I should be able to tell if it's a placebo.

[Pretender]

I'm going to have to break down and get a 2.5G tank.... He offered to give me his 29G tank with all the accessories. My wife doesn't want a second tank (yet). Hopefully she'll change her mind once the first is up and running.

Uh oh. He's been bit good. My wife's bosses have what I estimate to be a 90 gallon acrylic tank with stand and wet/dry filtration. They're down to one goldfish and a pleco. My wife tells me the whole thing started when their daughter brought home the goldfish from a school fair years ago. The tank looks bad, and the fish didn't look good when I saw him this weekend. I think their business doesn't really leave the the time to adequately care for the aquarium. I said to my wife, "If they decided they didn't want it any more, I would take it." I was kind of surprised that my wife seemed agreeable to the idea! Of course, her job is "feed the fish" and mine is "water changes and everything else." There just seems to be no tactful way to tell her bosses, "You're not taking good care of that fish, why don't you give us the expensive the aquarium system?"

[Holly9937]

You'll definately want to get the heat up a bit higher than 69-70!! If you do get the 2.5g size tank, I have seen mini heaters for sale from one of these sites: either www.bigalsonline.com or www.drsfostersmith.com

Also, do you have plans long term for the fry once you get the larger tank going? As cruel as it sounds, you might be better off letting them get eaten, or taken by the filter. Constantly trying to save and raise them will be alot of work, plus you have to make sure you have a local store that is willing to take them, or you will overrun in no time :D

[DirkW]

Also, do you have plans long term for the fry once you get the larger tank going? That's a very good point. The primary occupants will be schools of Mollies and Swordtails. My plan is to raise a few fry, and let the rest run wild in the big tank. My hope is that the extra fry would become food. I figured that once a year I'd pull out all the males and buy one male of each species each to keep the gene pool strong. I hope to either find a store that will take them or find good homes for them.

Any ideas on fish that would feed on the fry but otherwise be good community citizens?

Another idea is to occasionally pull out an older fish and chop it up into fish food (tossing out the head and tail). Of course, that wouldn't go over well with the females in my house. But if I did, could that cause problems in my tank?

Before someone flames me, I'd like to add that I have great affection for all living things. But my concern with animals are more for survival of species, thriving eco-systems, and minimal suffering, rather than survival of individuals.

[Holly9937]

I'm not sure if it was the filter, or the other fish, but I have only had a few fry survive out of the platys I had. I'm pretty sure the mollys and swords themselves will help keep the population down. You could get a dwarf gourami, they're very pretty and should do well in a 29g tank.