FYI about Flowerhorn fish

[wetfyre]

Just a little information about the Flowerhorn fish (Cichlasoma sp.) that's currently hot in Asia...

The Flowerhorn fish (aka Fa Lou Han, Hua Lor Han) - a hybrid between two different Central American cichlids* - is currently very popular in Malaysia for its purported properties of enhancing one's luck and prosperity.

This fish is aggressively marketed as a bringer of prosperity and luck. The craze for it is such that one specimen on auction in Malaysia is asking for a price of RM1.2 million (USD315,789)!

It is a notoriously aggresive fish towards its own kind and can only be kept as a solitary fish. This "species" is artificially created from two different Central American cichlid varieties from a breeder in Malaysia.

As the sellers market this fish by concentrating on its shape, color and body markings (bearing some resemblance to Chinese characters), buyers are lured towards buying the ideal and perfect fish.

In actual fact, many specimens when reaching maturity do not meet the desired characteristics. These undesirable specimens are then thrown into the local waterways because killing them would be unlucky.

The release of these fish is a serious problem because being carnivorous, they kill off native fish, especially slow swimmers such as gouramis and bettas.

Being a Malaysian myself, I am saddened by the irresponsible buyers and breeders who dump unwanted specimens into the local waterways. I am a great fan of tropical freshwater fishes especially arowanas, snakeheads, gouramis and bettas. It is very sad to see smaller species being devoured by this artificially created monstrosity. I am especially against the artificial cross-breeding of any animals.

So please, before you decide to buy a Flowerhorn, think of the demand that you may be contributing to an already fanatic business. Think of that indirect support you may be giving to irresponsible dealers who throw many fish into the local waterways. Most of all, think of the extinction of wild populations of most of the Southeast-Asian tropical fishes.

Thank you.

* Thanks to Tiger15 for the information.

[Harry Tolen]

Very interesting post and perspective on an additional aspect of this problem. Your comments about the existence of a substantial population of undesirable specimens confirm the theories held by some of us familiar with genetics; however, we had no idea that these fish were then being released into the wild. Talk about making a bad situation worse. The only good thing is that, being genetically unstable, they will not be able to sustain their presence in the wild indefinitely, once they stop being augmented by additional discarded specimens. However, they will obviously do substantial ecological damage in the meantime.

[Tiger15]

Don't worry. Their popularity will drop quickly because they are such a prolofic fish and soon the price will be driven down by over production. You're right that majority of them look rather ordinary, nothing like those pricy specimen, and soon people will get tired of them. I am surprised that the natural species in Malaysia have not already been disrupted because tropical fish farming is a big business there. BTW, I don't know how Firehorn can stand up to native specieis like arowana and snakehead there when they are problem for our native species here.

You are incorrect to state that Firehorn are CA and SA hybrid because they are straightly CA hybrid among several closely related Cichlasomine species.

[Tightdog1]

anybody know exactly what kind of fish they are spawnred from?

but i think cross-breeding, inbreeding and hybrid species is wrong and it should not be practied because it begins to make the hobby into a business that who ever can make the most beautiful fish but in the meantime they make some of the workst fish like the flowerhorn without a tail. i mean how can a fish live without a tail. they just cut parrts of the fish off and let it grow, its just a messed up practice and is just morally wrong.

[wetmanNY]

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/flowerhorn.html

This article by two knowledgable Australians is packed with information.

[Ledslnger]

I would rather have all natural Arrowanas in our world than the fake Flowerhorns. Down with Flowerhorns!!!!!

[wetfyre]

Hi Tiger15,

Thanks for the correction. With regards to whether flowerhorns can stand up to arowanas and snakeheads, well, according to the action plan taken by the Malaysian govt, they would like to control the flowerhorn pest by introducing more snakeheads (particularly Channa Micropeltes) into the wild. We'll just have to wait and see if it works.

As for the arowanas, as you may know, they are an endangered species and their numbers in the wild are not large enough to have any significant impact on this pest population. Instead, we will be relying on more voracious predatory species like the featherbacks (knife fish) and snakeheads.

Originally posted by Tiger15
Don't worry. Their popularity will drop quickly because they are such a prolofic fish and soon the price will be driven down by over production. You're right that majority of them look rather ordinary, nothing like those pricy specimen, and soon people will get tired of them. I am surprised that the natural species in Malaysia have not already been disrupted because tropical fish farming is a big business there. BTW, I don't know how Firehorn can stand up to native specieis like arowana and snakehead there when they are problem for our native species here.

You are incorrect to state that Firehorn are CA and SA hybrid because they are straightly CA hybrid among several closely related Cichlasomine species.

[Tiger15]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
http://www.sydneycichlid.com/flowerhorn.html

This article by two knowledgable Australians is packed with information.

The knowledgable Australians have accepted the rumor that Blood Parrot is a hybrid without verification. So they made the incorrect generalization statement that " Some hybrid fish exhibit particularly deformed anatomical features which lead to troubles feeding, swimming and undertaking behaviour normal to these fishes. This is of considerable moral and ethical concern. "

Blood Parrrot is now believed to be a Red Devel mutant, not a hybrid. Hybrid fish are typically very vigorous and rarely deformed. Firehorn, Red Swordtail and hybrid Tilapia for the food market are vigorous hybrid. Fancy goldfish, ballon Molly, Blue Dampsy and all alibino fish are weak, deformed mutants of pure species. If Firehorn were a deformed hybrid, there is no danger that they can out compete wild species.

[wetmanNY]

Ron Coleman is in agreement with the knowledgable Ausralians. Read his very measured analysis of this hybrid at his famous website, one of the essential Cichlid sites:
http://cichlidresearch.com/parrot.html

Purveyors of art fakes are always concerned that you not learn the history behind the object, or that you remain confused... These are fake fishes. The dealers' motivations are similar. It's interesting that the trade is currently mis-appropriating the actual "Parrot Cichlid"'s scientific name to apply to this fish.

Once you know it's a genetic cripple, it's hard to see this fish as "cute" and "comical." That's just my feeling.

[Faramir]

I don't get it. I saw some flowerhorns at the Goldfish Bowl in Oxford. I couldn't believe it - drab fish selling for £50+!

There wasn't one that matched my the Blue Acara I got for a fiver.

[tyler]

Originally posted by Tightdog1
anybody know exactly what kind of fish they are spawnred from?

but i think cross-breeding, inbreeding and hybrid species is wrong and it should not be practied because it begins to make the hobby into a business that who ever can make the most beautiful fish but in the meantime they make some of the workst fish like the flowerhorn without a tail. i mean how can a fish live without a tail. they just cut parrts of the fish off and let it grow, its just a messed up practice and is just morally wrong.

agreed on the cross breeding and hybridization, but isn't inbreeding (to a certain extent) how show quality fish are perfected? then again, i could just be an idiot (usually the case);)

[Tiger15]

WetmanNY, many experts are wrong too as quoted in Ron Coleman's article, "The blood parrot cichlid is a man-made hybrid. The exact origins of the fish are unclear but it appears to be a cross between a South American cichlid, likely the severum (Heros severus) and a Central American cichlid, likely the midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellum) or the red devil (Amphilophus labiatum)."

The appearance of BP being a cross between Severum and Midas is remotely possible because the two species are remotely related. If BP were a hybrid, it's more likely between two CA species than between species from two continents. All CA belong to Cichlasomine line, but CA and SA are remotely related. The mutant theory is more plausible because many mutants are infertile, not hybrid.

In breeding to produce certain desirable traits is a common practice in tropical fish as seen in Betta, goldfish, angel, discus and all long-veiled fish. Cross breeding is common practice in live bearers and discus as well as in ornamental plants, food crop and domesticated animals. Moral or not is a perspective view point. All tropical fish can escape to streams and desimate native species but I have not heard of escaped cross breed contaminating pure species in the wild. It's only a problem with domesticated stock but cross breed or not, domesticated stock will begin to deviate genetically from wild type soon after human domestication. Look at how different these fish deviate from the wild genotype: Oscar, angels, discus and goldfish.

[Barbie]

All of which makes for a well informed debate. The problem with the discussion is that you're not looking at the lines of reasoning that originally made the theory of a hybrid, more readily acceptable. The fish you named will all produce viable fry. Parrot cichlids do not. When you hybridize an animal you get mismatched numbers of chromosomes. This is how a mule can have very much the same characteristics, with every cross of a donkey and a horse. The cross itself creates a stable "stamp" of a look on the hybrid, but they are 99% infertile, duh to that mismatched chromosome. 1% are fertile though. This isn't a well known fact, because it would be a huge waste of time to attempt to figure out which of the 100 would be fertile, and then cross them back on one of the two types of parents, when you can get a fairly accurate copy, just by making the same cross again.

Occasional blood parrots are fertile, but usually only when spawning with some other form of cichlid, not each other. You hear stories of it happening, and technically it WOULD be possible, but I have yet to actually talk to anyone that's done it themselves and raised fry to see what they looked like, let alone seen pictures.

This, as much as anything else, is what has made the common consensus on these fish what it is, that they are hybrids, and not some form of true breeding mutant. If they were true breeding, they would be able to spawn themselves. Oscars, angels, and those other fish you named can, and when crossed back into less line bred forms, you strengthen and hearten the fry.

There is also another "parrot" type cichlid available in the hobby that I've seen marketed as "toffee" cichlids, that are obviously a convict/? cross, that they then dye. As long as people will BUY these things, they're going to keep putting them out into the market, IMO.

Barbie

[Harry Tolen]

My reading of the relevant material leads me to agree with Barbie and WetmanNY. Infertility is much more a characteristic of hybridization than it is of mutancy (is that a word, "mutancy"?). Furthermore, if Blood Parrots are infertile, then they would already be extinct, as you cannot expect the same mutation to occur over and over again. On the other hand, if what you are dealing with is a hybrid, you can do that over and over again, simply by re-crossing the same parent species (in a petrie dish, if necessary).

[Tiger15]

Originally posted by Harry Tolen
My reading of the relevant material leads me to agree with Barbie and WetmanNY. Infertility is much more a characteristic of hybridization than it is of mutancy (is that a word, "mutancy"?). Furthermore, if Blood Parrots are infertile, then they would already be extinct, as you cannot expect the same mutation to occur over and over again. On the other hand, if what you are dealing with is a hybrid, you can do that over and over again, simply by re-crossing the same parent species (in a petrie dish, if necessary).

All known fish hybrids are fertile, which include all Rift Lake cichlid hybrids, Central American cichlid hybrid, Red Swordtail and many hybrid live bearers, Hibrid Tilapia, Hybird Pearl/Blue Gourami hybrid, and a long list. Not only that hybrid fish are typically fertile, they often exhibit hybrid vigor that they grow larger and stronger.

Known fish mutants, on the other hand, are either infertile or low in fertility, which include Blue Dampsey, black angel, ballon molly, all albinos, and fancy golfish. The mutant genes are recessive and pairing two mutants is either fatal or produces weak offsprings, but pariing one mutant with another normal fish is fertile. Black angels have been known to be a very weak strain and produce high fry fatality. Many fancy goldfish are infertile and can only be cross bred with a more normal form to produce a small percentage of desirable mutants. Blue Dampsey are infertile but can be bred with normal Dampsey and produces a persentage of blue dampsey. Similarly, Blood Parrots are infertile, but it is possible to produce more Blood Parrots by cross breeding with normal Red Devel or with another noraml CA species.

One often quotes Mule as an example of hybrid infertility. It is a fundamentally WRONG assumption because Mule is a mammal and mammal and fish sex are completely different.

[Barbie]

Problems with fry being extremely sensitive and not hardy, do NOT equate nonviable fry. They are too distinctly separate issues. Hybrids from different continents would have developed a more diverse chromosome pattern or count from fish that originated all from the same type of fish, such as the hybrids that occur in the family Maylandia, and other rift lake cichlids.

Black angels, Blue Dempseys, and other line bred "man made types" do indeed benefit from infusions of wild genes without the inbred problems that fish that have been line bred can develop. Those fish have been purposely bred back into fish with the same characteristics, to enhance recessive genetics, which also gives you the risk of enhancing the undesirable traits.

By stating that single cross with a red devil strengthens the blood parrots "strain" enough, you yourself are proving the point that they aren't genetically sound, but need an infusion of genes that have the proper pairing.

The other fish you mentioned all may have weak fry, but they DO hatch, and can be carefully raised. Blood parrots do not.

A hybrid is a hybrid as far as genetics go, be it mammal, fish, or any other form of life. Period.

Barbie