Isolating filter techniques to single devices

[FishInMaryland]

http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=18&page=1

This article piqued my interest because I have problems with higher-than-I-would-like nitrate levels, as well as the potential flood problems that I encounter on my weekly water changes when disconnect my Fluval 404s (older models) to clean the fish poop out of the sponges and biofiltration stuff.

I like the idea of having something besides my 404s doing the mechanical filtration. I would go with something more easily accessible and where it's easier to clean the mechanical filter. I might be encouraged to do it more than just once a week!

RTR - do I understand correctly that you are describing a setup where you isolate the type of filtration into separate devices and end up with (for example) a canister filter to perform the biofiltration, and a separate device to perform the mechanical filtration? If so, how do you determine what rating to go with for the device that is doing the mechanical filtration? Do you need to replicate the amount of mechanical filtration that is currently provided via the existing filtration system?

Thanks.

[RTR]

having been a multi-filter nut for many long times, I eventually noticed that there were non-trivial differences between my tanks based on the type of filtration employed there. Certain formats ran higher nitrate than other, similar bioload and identical care, tanks. Also being an Eheim adict, it was depressing to see that the higher titer tanks were those all-in-one canisters. And that my prefiltered and additional mech-only filtered RFUGs and W/Ds were the low titer tanks. It did not take much analysis to figure out that the glaring difference was the frequency with with the mech media was rinsed. Since everybody already knows that trapped particulates are still in the system as as they are largely organic they can be digest or in plainer word, they rot. Getting the organics not yet dissolved out of the sytem means rinsing mech at least 4-20X more than biofilter media needs it, so long as that biofilter medium is protected from particulates. Thus the alternate canister scheme.

I more than match the current flow of the canister with additional mech-only filtration, plus using the prefilter on the caniter itself. As the mech-only captures the particulates along with the prefilter on the canister, the biomedia is well protected and thus need little attention.

BTW, a slightly up dated version of the techniquee is on:

http://www.thepufferforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=1386

[FishInMaryland]

I love the thought of only opening my canisters a few times a year, rather than every week. It's always a crapshoot whether I'll have water everywhere or not, and whether the darn impeller will get cranky and I struggle to restart.

In any event, I finally found a note on kensfish.com that the FilterMax III is for "tanks over 40 gallons." That isn't very specific, so I'm wondering whether I can put it on the intake for a Fluval 404 (rated at 340 GPH) and not create problems with not enough water entering the canister quick enough. Do you have any thoughts?

To implement, I'll have to study my tank closely as well as evaluate what filters I can use as the mechanical filters. My 125 G tank is acrylic, and so doesn't have too many options for locating filters, unless I take a drill to the top.

Do you have any pictures that you can post of a tank using an external canister for biofiltration and internal canister for mech filtration?

[RTR]

I am a FilterMaxIII addict - the LFS stocks it now because I use so many. FilterMaxI is finer, needs rinsing 2x per week in most tanks. The III does fine on all my Eheims with weekly rinses, but they are smaller than your ext. Fluval in flow, maxing out at nominal ~1000 liters/hr (~265 GPH).

GWAPA meeting at my place:

http://www.gwapa.org/articles/august2005/index.html

The "Wall-O-Tanks" and all internal and external (top tier has FBF externals), bottom tier has two unlighted tanks barely visible with internal/external, but on reversed light cycle.

The "One of Robert's tanks" shot in the picture below the "Wall..." shot is the 55 upstairs in this room, the internal Eheims (no longer available unfortunately) are visible right and barely-visible left rear corners, the external Eheim is not in the shot, but its intake and return are with the left-hand internal, largely hidden by the Val.

The "Another tank" shot is the top-tier center "Wall" tank, freshly reset, 30-long, internal Fluval2 (not 2a or plus), and as backing is not on the external FBF is barely visible left rear of the tank.

The "Yet another" shot below that is a brand new 40-long at the left of the "Wall-...", its Fluval2 internals are cropped out, but the intake for its external Eheim is partly in the shot at the extreme left. Its external Eheim is viible on the floor in one of the shots in the tank room proper, that shot is labeled in part "Lots of plumbing!" - Look at the far end of the two buckets with shared light strip (plants for that afternoon's auction, not yet bagged) to see that Eheim. The big emerse Veggie filter is part of the "wall" circulating range as well.

The "...more tanks" shot in the tank room proper shows another 40-long N. leleupii breeding colony at the right behind one of the reservoir barrels. It is internal mechs with internal prefiltered RFUG, and linked to the 33XL 24/7 lighted veggie filter below it. There are fry present in the tank but not captured in the shot of course.

HTH

[FishInMaryland]

First of all, I have to say OMG. I can't even articulate more than that.

Secondly, I don't see the prefilter in any of these shots. Is that because it is so well hidden? That's one of my concerns - that they're so bulky, they'd be an ugly addition to the tank.

Sorry to keep asking so many questions, but this really seems to be a good answer to keeping nitrates down and to my desire to reduce the number of times I have to open up and then restart the Fluvals.

Do you know if anything can be done to increase the flow rate on the prefilter so that it is closer to the Fluval rate? What happens to the Fluval if the input rate is lower than it is currently - does the overall flow just slow down? If so, is that a big deal? If I were to add at least 2 internal filters (nothing seems to be rated for more than 55 gal tank), I would have additional circulation to what I have now anyway. Would this counteract the slower flow of the existing Fluvals with the prefilters added?

Thanks again.

[RTR]

All of my external canisters are Eheim. I have had other brands (some purchased, some gifted for multi-month trials), but nothing in chronic use but Eheim. Nor have I ever tested anything other than Eheim with prefilters, but I know than others here have done so - maybe someone will chime in.

Eheims do not slow down detectably in a week from the prefilters. If you used the FilterMaxI, it might as they are much finer so capture a lot more. I have this peculiar personal standard- I dump the sponge into a standard Lee's catch bucket (the round ones some LFS use), turn on the tap and rinse (sueeze/release & repeat) until the catch bucket is full, dump and repeat. If it takes more than 3 rinses to have clear water, my sponge was too dirty. I either need to rinse more often or add more mech filtration. Guess which the lazy man does? Add more filtration. That is how I ended up with 2 mech-only plus the prefilter for the canister (or FBF, or RFUGs) per tank. the size of the mech-only filters does vary with the tank. the 55 and one of the 40-longs have larger Eheim mech-only internals because they need more mech. One of the 40s has only 2 each Fluval 2 because it does not need as much mech. The free-standing 40 w/leleupii has one larger mech-only and one smaller mesh only (plus the two RFUG prefilters). I size by perceived need, my own definition.

I am gratified that the prefilters do not show - I get enough grief from the aquascapers over the internals. ;) The only one readily visible in the photos is the one in the newly set middle tier 40-long, and once the Val gets dense it will fade from view, but in person you can see several of the prefilters as the angle of view does matter. The one in the 55 is invisible from the front, but easily seen from the side as it is under the internal mech-only in the back left corner behind the dense Val.

The Wall tanks are accesible from the back, so prefilters tend to be behind wood if not under a corner mech-only internal. The backings on those tanks are fabric, so I can pull them aside to see and work from the tank room side - drips are less problem on vinyl than on hardwood.

I don't mind the questions at all. I've had many questions and always have been to lazy to write up a real article on the technique beside the introductory one. maybe this will force me to organize something on the circulating range as well. :dance:

[FishInMaryland]

Oh no! "Circulating range????" Does this require a whole new level of knowledge????

Since I don't have a planted tank - long story already posted - plus the fact that I'm limited by the arrangement of the top/openings on an acrylic tank, I will probably have a bit of trouble disguising the prefilters, and even more in hiding an internal filter. However, I think the end result will be worth it, so I've just about convinced my self to bite the bullet.

Do you think that two 55 gallon rated internals that are mech-only, plus the 2 pre filters will be sufficient on a 125 G tank? Although, I think from what you've written, it's probably less dependent on the size of the tank, but the volume of glop that needs to be filtered!

FYI, I found out over the weekend that the tank may be suffering from "food creep" in that my husband has apparently increased the amount he feeds them in the morning, and has been giving them about a teaspoon every day, whereas I had been giving them about 1/3 of that! I'm curious to see how the nitrate situation pans out with only 1/3 of the food being provided.

I'm really hoping to get this licked, so that I can get another tank!

[RTR]

Yup, the entire "wall" plus the emerse veggie filter is one system, interconnected and circulating, with tanks 1-6 as one loop, 7-9 as the other (the two loops on opposite light cycles), both united through a large W/D system. But that is to make my life both more apparently complex while at the same time easier to operate. For water changes and water chemistry monitoring, it is one tank. But each tank is fully capable of independent operation and do so periodically. Two tanks were traded out at different times in the last year just by shutting off the valves to the involved loop and breaking the connections while the particular tank was pulled, replaced, and reset before circulation was restored. You can ignore all that - systems are one of my weaknesses - I need to have these toys for my playtime. ;)

For you the interest is single-tank, as when the individuals in the wall are on their own. The 55 pictured is a stand-alone, many of my tanks are. But all are multi-filtered is similar manner, that is, separation of bio- and mech- filtration.

I cannot predict whether or not the two units in question will do the job - obviously sometimes I misjudge my own tanks, but you got it exactly right in that the tank will let you know. I think you are starting right, if that is any consolation. There is flexability there, it is not hard and fast.

Overfeeding is one of the big sins. Almost everybody (definitely including me) tends to overfeed. After all these years, it is still an issue with me.

[FishInMaryland]

OK, I bought a used 55g tank and stand yesterday, and it came with a Penguin 330 biowheel filter, but missing the biowheel (I discovered when I got home). I was thinking of setting this tank up using the technique we discussed above. I would like to get a H.O.T. Magnum for the biological filtration, and put a FilterMax 3 on the intake. Then, I would use the Penguin for mechanical filtration, putting some sort of mechanical filtration media in the 2 extra media containers and then using sponges in place of the cartridges. I haven't decided if I should just empty the carbon out of the cartridges that came with the Penguin, or use some other sort of sponge material.

This way, I don't have to open up the canister very often, and just need to rinse out the sponges and other media in the Penguin, as well as the Filter Max, when I do my water changes.

What are your thoughts on this setup? Anything missing? Should I replace the missing biowheels? I figure that I would, since it won't hurt anything.

What would you suggest as the mechanical filtration media in the extra chambers of the Penguin? Something spongey, or some sort of ceramic pre-filter mechanical gadgets? Eheim and Fluval both make some of these.

[RTR]

I don't use any HOBs (I don't like the fact that I can hear them, but also because media volumes are small in relation to my Eheims, and that they cause surface disruption and most of my tanks are planted), but i would opt for sponge media for its ease of rinse and re-use.

That scheme sound perfectly workable to me.