Fluidized Bed Filters? [Archive]

StevieM

12-02-2002, 10:34 AM

I believe that I read on here somewhere that FBF's will help to increase your bacteria colonies. Is it worth getting one of these setups on a 20g High? I have an Eclipse 2 system already in place but I perhaps think that my tank might be a little overcrowded or will be in the future.

5 Blue Rams
10 Small/Med Neon Tetras
1 gold spot bristlenose pleco
4 Painted Tetra

I've only had them for about 2 months now, but I was thinking that adding an additional caniser filter or one of these FBF's w/ a powerhead might help in the future. It would also be something I could add to a 72- or 90 I plan to get in the future...what do you think??? thanks for the advice!

steve

Anton Wernher

12-02-2002, 10:41 AM

unless you are getting readable levels of ammonia and nitrite (after the tank has been running for a while) I would stick with standard HOB filters for that size tank.

Anton Wernher

12-02-2002, 10:42 AM

BTW these test kits can be found at local fish stores or chain store fish departments for a couple of bucks.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 10:51 AM

A fluidized bed filter holds ALOT of good bacteria. Which means if you add any fish or clean your filter, the bed filter will always hold your ammonia and nitrite levels at 0! So you NEVER have to worry about your good bacteria levels when you clean your filter pads....The sand inside the filter lasts SEVERAL years...Plus it looks really good next to your tank! NIce and professional..

Its really better for the larger tanks....Mine is a 60 gallon. I have an emperor 400 and a rainbow fluidized bed filter.

Anton Wernher

12-02-2002, 10:55 AM

never say never :)

FishBait

12-02-2002, 11:01 AM

I guess I'm the only one who had problems with these as everyone really likes them. I ran two at my lfs (one Rainbow and one Red Sea). The Red Sea was nice cuz you could actually get into the thing to clean it. My gripe is that no matter what pump/prefilter combo I used I ALWAYS found larger debris particles in the chamber. I still think these types of filters are better mechanical filters than bio-filters at times. And the fact that actually SUGGEST replacing the media periodically is very counter-productive...unless you just do partial replacements. My feeling is that they just aren't worth their work and expense, but that's just me ;)

StevieM

12-02-2002, 11:01 AM

that's kind of the idea that I was shooting for. I started my tank about 2.5 months ago and all was going well until I decided to do the first of my monthly filter cleanings and more or less destroyed the bacteria colonies ( beginner boo-boo). It was at that time I went on a work trip for 3 days and left the feeding to my parents. That filter cleaning, the meds I added for some cottony fungi plus my old man overfeeding them like a champ wreaked havoc on my tank. It's taken me about a month to get things back in order more or less and I would like to give myself a buffer for these things in the future... any other opinions welcome.

steve

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 11:27 AM

well..Thats why I got it. lets say you overfeed the fish a day or 2. There then would be more ammonia. With a small bacteria colony, it would take some time for them to build up to get rid of the ammonia. During this time, you will have ammonia readings and then nitrite readings. With a fluidized bed filter, You will not have these problems at all. So, if there is a surge of ammonia in the tank, the bed will cover it easily. PLUS, when you buy your next tank and switch your fish over (or buy new fish), you can pass the bed over to the bigger tank and you wont have to cycle that tank. The bed will have all the bacteria already! this would be a big plus!
BTW: when you switch the bed filter to your bigger tank, you still will have the powerfilter on your other tank to cover the Bio...

THESE FILTERS ARE NOT MECHANICAL FILTERS!!!! only Bio...

Hook up a rio Pump with a sponge and you will NEVER get any debris in your bed filter. I have the Rainbow and they work great!

FishBait

12-02-2002, 11:40 AM

Hehe, well I didn't intend it to sound like these are purposely built as mechanical filters, just that ones I've used work like one quite a bit. Also, don't know about you, but you couldn't pay me enough money to ever use a Rio pump again.

Just one more point I'll throw out there, don't think that just by adding a FBF it will automatically become full of bacteria. True, it will provide a great environment for it and will allow the colony to quickly increase as apposed to some hang on back units, but unless there is enough nitrogen wastes produced to support them, the numbers of your bacteria will remain proportional to that of your nitrogen waste output. In essence, the colonies in your FBF will compete with those already established. Which ever environment is more conducive to them will become the dominant population.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 12:02 PM

Of course. BUT the build up of the good bacteria is REALLY FAST. much faster then your typical filter. It really does work wonders on keeping your ammonia and nitrtite readings at 0.
Also, yes, it doesnt come with bacteria and it has to build it up which may take a few weeks. But once it starts going you will LOVE it.

Whats so bad about RIO PUMPS??? I have had mine for a year and its VERY quiet and the sponge on it works great. If you get any debris in your bed filter, you are doing something wrong.
Rio pumps are VERY popular with the professional crowd..

FishBait

12-02-2002, 12:11 PM

Well not in the professional marine crowd anyway. I actually had one for over a year and defended it when many many others had them fail and leak whatever it is into the water...alot of them lost mucho dinero in livestock. But just a few months back mine finally died and got really hot...glad I was there to take it out when I was. Plus it NEVER turned back on after a power outtage. I just replaced it with Magdrive and said goodbye to my troubles ;)

Maybe it's a different purpose pump you have, cuz these Rios I'm talking about are 600+ gph models...maybe the smaller ones are more reliable, dunno.

JeffP

12-02-2002, 1:16 PM

JBW,

I am not sure I understand why bacteria would replicate faster in a FBF versus other types of filters in response to an ammonia spike.

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 1:36 PM

JeffP

12-02-2002, 3:00 PM

Thanks Slipknottin. That was my understanding. I was just wondering if I missed something.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 4:24 PM

oki...im sorry... i thought mine was a rio. i dont know why? anyway get the maxi-jet 295 gph with sponge..it works really good. a fluidized bed filters holds alot more good bacteria then even an underground filter does. It is the BEST bio filter out there due to the fact that the bacteria lives on each grain of sand. NOTHING COMPARES to this. ALSO, if you get one, you dont have to cycle that big tank (well drop the process from a few weeks to a few days). WHEN I clean my filter pads, overfeed, or whatever, I dont have to worry about any spikes. It does its job extremely well.

ps. my fluidized bed filter has NO gunk in it....due to the sponge...when i first had it i didnt have the sponge on it..so there was gunk that floated to the top of the sand..then i simply removed it. now, with the sponge, no gunk. ITs really a nice addition to any setup...

Richer

12-02-2002, 4:26 PM

Keep this in mind:

A FBF filter has the _potential_ to hold a large bacterial population. Fine, I agree with that because for the most part its true. However, if there is only an "X" amount of ammonia produced by your fish, will you get a larger bacterial colony in the FBF compared to tanks filtered by canisters, hob, etc.? No.

IMHO, there is no need for a FBF filter. Conventional HOBs, Canisters, W/D filters can easily handle a decently stocked tank. If your fish do manage to produce enough ammonia to twart even conventional filtration, you have a problem. Either there isn't enough biomedia in your filters, or you are grossly overstocked.

Another thing to keep in mind. If these filters are the ultimate biological filters, how come more of us don't use them? From what I see, they are relatively inexpensive compared to a decent sized Eheim canister. Why don't we all just go the FBF route?

One more thing I'd like to add. How can a FBF speed up the cycling process? It doesn't make sense to me. You can have all the surface area in the world, and that will never speed up the cycling process. Adding media from an establish tank however, will speed the process up.

HTH
-Richer

StevieM

12-02-2002, 4:27 PM

My whole idea was to make the water conditions even better for the fish, they are ok now...but what the heck?? I agree with the point that if there isn't suffucient "food" for the bacteria the colonies will only grow to that certain size and hold...the fish are doing fine for now, so i guess I will just remain in a holding pattern until i get a larger tank that is...thanks for your help

steve

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 4:50 PM

STEVE......

if you take your used fluidized bed filter and add it to the new tank then that new tank would be considered pretty much cycled. prove to me that you can get more bacteria in the canistors..let me know. besides..i have an emporer 400 with a slightly overcrowded tank. i dont want to switch cleaning the pads bi-weekly and i dont want to worry about "what if i overfeed" my tank never has spiked or had any measurements of ammonia. IMO, having a fluidized bed filter worry free.

ps. there is no way a canistor holds more good bacteria then a fluidized bed filter.

Richer

12-02-2002, 4:59 PM

I never said a canister holds more bacteria than a FBF. Nothing in my post says that. I told you, I agree with the notion that FBF do have the potential to carry more bacteria than your typical canister. However, have you considered how many people are able to keep a healthy tank without one? Very many. I even have one friend who has a grossly overstocked 66 gallon tank with nothing more than a fluval 404 and an aquaclear 300. I assure you, this tank is overstocked, he has enough goldfish in there to supply 10 30gallon tanks. As ugly as his tank may be (due to algae, and general fish crap) he does not have a biological filtration problem.
You tell me this, how can a sterile FBF "instantly" cycle a brand new tank? It doesn't make sense to me. BTW, I do realize you said used FBF. But your first post about instant cycling lead me to believe you were mentioning a brand new one. Lets say you do get a used one. What about the tank that had this FBF going? There is no doubt in my mind it will undergo at least a minicycle.
erp, one more thing. You know the saying don't put all your eggs in one basket? I'd say that goes for a FBF. What if the powerhead running the FBf fails and you don't notice? Big trouble imho. Multiple filters, will always outdo one big all encompassing one.

-Richer

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:04 PM

i didnt say sterile.. i said "used". if he uses it on his 20gallon for a while...until a bacteria colony establishes themselves....he can switch it the new tank and it wil then be considered cycled due to the fact the baceria is in the canistor. the fbf is a failsafe. i dont have to worry about killing the bacteria if i overclean my powerfilter or over vacuum my gravel, or even overfeed. What if your friends canistor fails or the powerfilter fails? then say goodbye to all those fish that you love. a fbf is a great ADDITION to a powerfilter or canistor...

Richer

12-02-2002, 5:06 PM

Refer to my edit.

FBFs aren't exception to failures neither.

erm... one more edit.
You never mentioned whether you tank you transfer the FBF to would be equal, smaller or larger in size. In case if it was larger, you will not instantly cycle the tank. Only give it a big kick in the butt. If the tank was equal in size, there is still the chance of a minicycle seeing how bacteria can also resign in the mechanical filter, substrate and decor of the tank.

-Richer

Anton Wernher

12-02-2002, 5:23 PM

I keep seeing the mention of a fbf being able to handle additional ammonia better than other filtration methods. While a fbf might be able to maintain a larger bacteria colony the colony will only be as big as the amount of food there is available. So if you do over feed or add another fish the colony will have to have time to grow to compensate... It does not have the ability to have bacteria on reserve.

edit: just noticed that richer brought this up.. i should read the thread first eh...

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:27 PM

Look..all im saying its a great addition. if i overclean the powerfilter or if your friend overcleans the canistor. or if you overfeed, or the canistor or powerfilter goes out.

Im not saying the fbf is the all time best:

If the powerhead breaks, your going to have to remove the sand and add new sand and recycle that sand. However, you do have a powerfilter or canistor that will pick up the slack.

If the power goes out. determines how long. More than an hour, all the good bacteria dies and if it is over 3 hours I think? the good bacteria turns to bad and get into the tank when the power comes back on. Thats the samething as the canistor. Power filters work ALOT better then canistors or FBF in a power outage.

FBF is great as a mind relief backup. I like to clean my powerfilter and not worry about killing too much bacteria or vacuum. IF I overfeed, well, I got plenty of room for the basteria to pick up the slack.... So I have no worries.

If your canistor breaks..then your fish are dead if it is a overcrowded tank. At least I have a backup. If my powerfilter (or canistor If I had one) goes out, my fbf will keep my tank healthy.
If my powerhead to my fbf goes out..no big deal..I have the powerfilter that will deal until I can get the powerhead replaced.

Its just makes me feel protected without playing with a loaded gun waiting for that bullet to arrive. No machines are unbreakable.

Richer

12-02-2002, 5:29 PM

Decent filtration on a smartly stocked tank will also lead to extra amounts of surface area available to compensate for any accidents. How do you know if your tank is stocked decently? Through lots of research and by asking questions. Unfortunately, many people see fish keeping as a "throw-away" hobby. Fish are living creatures as well, and like in any hobby where keeping live animals are concerned, lots of research is a must.
Ponder this though, if you overfeed enough to cause a fatal ammonia spike in a tank that does not have a FBF, you are basically dumping an entire container for food into the tank.

BTW, I do have backups. Multiple filters. My 66 gallon malawi tank is filtered with a fluval 404, AC300, and an AC200. I bet you if any one of my filters fail for an extended amount of time, one of my other filters can easily pick up the slack. The good part is, I don't need to spend 180 dollars (CDN) for my backups, plus I'll never need to refill the sand, nor have the possibility of the sand compacting in case the powerhead does fail for an extended amount of time.

-Richer

RTR

12-02-2002, 5:32 PM

I actually like FBF, I do think they respond to bioload changes quickly in relation to canisters and even W/Ds. I tend to use them on fry grow-out tanks where bioload is heavy and constantly increasing, and have not had any issues with them other than being a PITA to add more sand in to replace the blowout from startup after my too frequent power interruptions (but they have never failed to restart).

But, just as with any other biofilter, they must be cycled and it will not be instant. FBF are not capable of changing the rates at which nitrification bacteria multiply (and that is slow compared to most bacteria). They may optimize conditions better than some other other filters do, but it is a matter of degree, not kind.

All IME & IMHO, YMMV

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:39 PM

But Richter,

You see my point right? Its a Great addition to a tank. A emperor 400 or a good canistor can handle the bacteria with the correct bio materials in them.

I can soak my emporer 400 filter in tap water and not worry about the bacteria colonies. If my powerfilter breaks....I dont have to worry about my bacteria. FBF will cover it.

A FBF is an ADDITION to your filtration methods. You should also have a mechanical device as well (powerfilter or canistor or sump)

Im just saying its a GREAT device to have. If I buy another 60 gallon tank, I can switch this bed filter onto that one and the tank is almost cycled!

You can argu that you dont need a FBF...you dont.
I can argue that I dont need a canistor or powerfilter as well.. I dont.

Technically, you dont need any additional devices for a tank...

************************************************** *
Richter, I never refill my sand and it keeps level. I dont know where you shop, but my bed filter cost 50.00 us.
as for being able to hold bacteria? I bet a fbf can hold alot more then all those filter you listed easily..

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 5:46 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:49 PM

what the does that mean? you quoted me..I support both claims...

If I have a USED one and add it to a NEW 60 gallon tank..it will reduce the cycle by alot of time. ALSO, the good bacteria does grow faster in this filter then in others. HOWEVER, it does take a few weeks to cycle a BRAND NEW fbf

slip: why are you ALWAYS on my back??? Please inform me where this gunk is? algae from the plastic tube does once in a while break off and enter the sand, but it settles on the top, which is easily removed. any gunk that enters always is pushed up to the top of the sand...

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 5:52 PM

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
what the does that mean? you quated me..I support both claims...

i could care less what you support. what matters is if other people have had the same results as you, and/or its been proven.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:53 PM

RtR supports the FBF. and he is extremely respected here on the boards... also, check the usenets. Lots of positive comments about them.

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 5:53 PM

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 5:56 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:56 PM

Yes, Im sure it does. However it does settle on top of the sand where its easily disposed of. Have you even owned one? I dont think so.. If you dont OWN one....I dont think you should make comments that you have no idea about. Dont believe me? check the usenet. Got TONS of people that like them..

PS..My suggestions or comments are NOT FALSE!

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 5:58 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 5:59 PM

prove which comment that I made?

Cant wait for crenicichla or Matt to make statements against me..you will see..they shall I bet.. Hopefully they wont..but we will see

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 6:04 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 6:18 PM

Im not wrong on This. a FBF on your tank will only improve it. Plus, you can use it to help a new tank go through a cycle...check articles on the web if you want... sorry that your wrong. I did the research on them before I spent the $$$ on it and found that they are EXTREMELY useful

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 6:20 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 6:24 PM

Yes..you dont need a fbf to go through a cycle. Without it on a new tank..it can take a month or more. With a fbf that was used on a previous tank, it can take a week or so..since the bacteria are already settled in the filter..

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 6:25 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 6:31 PM

Its not. ALL i am saying is, it is one of the best bio backup filters out there. BACKUP.

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 6:32 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 6:35 PM

I already explained myself....read the posts..

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 6:38 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 6:46 PM

question 1.) because of the movement of the water through the sand at a specified rate, each bacteria can grow on each grain of sand as more oxygen supplied water is flowing over them.

2.)Best bio filter- Imagine all the surface area on all that sand. Each Grain holds an area for the bacteria to live on and you have more then one grain of sand..so it can hold the most bacteria.

B.) I have a 1 year old tank. Good. Established. If I buy another one. The second tank will need to be cycled. correct? yes. WHOOOO. Hold the bus. What if I MOVED the FBF from the OLD tank to the NEW tank. WHOOOO.. now the NEW tank will have a LOAD of ood bacteria so you can immediatly add fish.

I hope you can understand that slip.

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 6:52 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 6:59 PM

I understand them completelty. I just dont want to waste the time arguing with you.

*****************************************
if you want a fbf- do your research and you will realize what a great improvement they are on your tank.
*********************************************

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:00 PM

there a great addition because of all the reasons you gave...

oh wait, you didnt give any.

I am very well read on FBFs and other filters and the theories and reasons behind their operation. Its you who seems hasent read much about them considering you cant give 1 reason to use them.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:04 PM

NOT so... I choose not to waste my time with you arguing. There are PLENTY of articles on the net reviewing them. I gave some excellent points about them. If you want to disregard them. Thats your choice. I did the research and found its a good investment. IM NOT GOING TO DO THE RESEARCH JUST FOR YOU. your really not worth the time. Sorry.

1.) do the research
2.) find out that they do have many benefits on overcrowded tanks

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:07 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:12 PM

MOre reaons that I mentioned earlier that you took a blind eye to.

If anyone reading this is interested in buying one:

Always do your research and not only go by our OPINIONS, but research what exactly makes this a great product. Read reviews, articles, and poeples opinions in the newsgroups (wealth of info). You know my opinion and Slips opinion. Now go buy it :)

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:14 PM

Tiger15

12-02-2002, 7:15 PM

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
question 1.) because of the movement of the water through the sand at a specified rate, each bacteria can grow on each grain of sand as more oxygen supplied water is flowing over them.

2.)Best bio filter- Imagine all the surface area on all that sand. Each Grain holds an area for the bacteria to live on and you have more then one grain of sand..so it can hold the most bacteria.

B.) I have a 1 year old tank. Good. Established. If I buy another one. The second tank will need to be cycled. correct? yes. WHOOOO. Hold the bus. What if I MOVED the FBF from the OLD tank to the NEW tank. WHOOOO.. now the NEW tank will have a LOAD of ood bacteria so you can immediatly add fish.

I hope you can understand that slip.

Point 1: So can a UGF or canister if you keep the media clean and maintain a good flow through.

Point 2: Best biofilter is only a subjective theoretical opinion, without independent experimental verification. Others will argue that biowheels or wet and dry filter is the best biofilter.

Point 3: A simpler way to jump cycle a tank is to transfer a dirty filter pad or siphon some detritus from your old tank to the new tank.

The bottom line is that a FBF (or any other biofilter) is useful only if your system needs it as manefested by elevated ammonia and nitrite readings. The biological activities is in balance with your system bioload and adding more physical biolfilters will not increase the activities and so serve no benefit.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:24 PM

Bottom paragragh I agree with. there will be no added benefits if your tank is stable, there will be only enough bacteria that can be consumed.

But you forget one thing. I have always said its a Great backup filter, and I stand by that. You cant beat it as a backup.

Lets say you add one to a stable aquarium. ok. after a few weeks, the fbf can hold 30 percent of bacteria (example..could be more or less) and the rest of the bacteria stays in the original filters. Now, oh NO! the first filter breaks..and ammonia rises. IN an overcrowded tank, without a FBF, many of your fish may die. BUT WAIT, I HAVE A FBF!!!! My good bacteria expands rapidly.. My fish are saved! So, your fish are dead, mine are alive. End of story. Your tank smells like dead fish. mine are alive and well.

Go Figure. My FBF saved my fish! G-d bless the FBF!!! way to go!

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:33 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:37 PM

No response..you are truly wasting my time. Research the web and you will see a FBF is worthy of a must have product 'nuff said. Lock the thread

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:39 PM

Anton Wernher

12-02-2002, 7:42 PM

well I must say that this made the past hour of work go a bit faster.

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:43 PM

Researched the articles on the net: DONE
Found out what the majority said: DONE
--------------------
Results: a MUST HAVE PRODUCT.

Who is more respectable here: Slip or RTR??
who are yuo going to TRUST? slip or RtR?
------------------
RTR

What does RTR say:??? He has one and loves it.
what does the web say: BUY IT!
what do the majority say: GREAT PRODUCT..DOES WONDERS
********************************************
what are you going to do? BUY IT!!!!!!!
****************************************

glad to help anton..

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:45 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:51 PM

Originally posted by slipknottin
wow jameson. i thought you could read. guess not.

I never in this thread said they didnt work. I never discredited any of RTRs statements.

and explain who the "majority" is BTW.

I never said that you said that they didnt work.
RTR said they work great and makes it a point to let you know its a worthy investment...and he has one. You pretty much said its not worthy of purchase. SO...... the above statements that I have been made are correct.

Majority: dont you know what that means? check out www.dictionary.com there is your answer.

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:53 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 7:55 PM

hmmm.....who is the majority??? grab a seat. turn out the lights. close your eyes. Think about it. then you will realize who the majority is...

Anton Wernher

12-02-2002, 7:56 PM

Lets see... I have a 150 gallon with 2 oscars. The filtration on the tank is 2 aquaclear 500s and a hot magnum 250. Both of the Aquaclears run 2 sponges each and the magnum is filled with various items such as legos and cellpure media. All the intanks are also fitted with sponges. The tank has not had a readable level of nitrites or ammonia since the tank was first cycled. Is the fbf a must have for this tank?

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 7:57 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 8:01 PM

Of course. these "people" are the same that likes to fight. Check an independent source. like the usenet. or the web. Majority. not JUST this thread, but the world.

Fine:

Slip= has majority in this thread (from some sources that never even owned them)
Jamison= has majority of the WORLD..
who wins? I Do,I Do!!!

Lock the thread someone?

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 8:04 PM

vfrex

12-02-2002, 8:06 PM

Tell you what...i sent a message to someone I consider to be very knowledgable about filters. He's been in the hobby for a very long time. A neutral source, has no connections to this thread (or board I believe). I asked him hos opinion on FBF's. I hope for a reply by tomarrow. Think you guys can chill until then?

slipknottin

12-02-2002, 8:15 PM

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 8:16 PM

here is one link:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=956096109.597419%40sj-nntpcache-3&rnum=14&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dbed%2Bfilter%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3 DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26start%3D10%26sa%3DN

another one:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=20000117233207.11675.00000910%40ng-fg1.aol.com&rnum=52&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dbed%2Bfilter%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3 DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26start%3D50%26sa%3DN

those are only 2 out of 30000 threads in the usenet

JamisonBWolsh

12-02-2002, 8:19 PM

every person on those threads LOVE the fbf.

and imagine..there are 30,000 more threads based on FBF. so...just in ONE of those threads, I have more people saying they work Great. you have 2 poeple. Read On. Save your money and BUY IT. www.bigalsonline.com you should have it in a week.

If you want: you can email me and I can drop a email to your parents or wife or siblings about it....maybe a holiday gift?