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tmy420
11-13-2005, 3:57 PM
I have 8 corydoras, 2 golden white cloud minnows, and 4 giant danios... They all rub their sides on the rocks and gravel.. anyone know why?

jec0995
11-13-2005, 4:17 PM
Sounds like they may have ick. Can you see any white spots?? I'm no expert so you may want to wait for someone else to post on this but that would be my first guess. Hopefully someone else will reply, as I would also like to hear an explanation.

sublime1184
11-13-2005, 4:20 PM
It's called flashing and it is suggestive that the fish may have ich, flukes or other parasites. Reseach what external symptoms are shown, if none are, then internal parasites are probably the cause. There are some arcticles on ich in the article forum here at AC.

tmy420
11-13-2005, 4:55 PM
I dont see any white spots or any spots what so ever... they have been doing this from the beginning.. i put some aqua plus water conditioner w/ stress coat in when i do water changes... and it "maybe seems" like they do it more when i do water changes, i dont know for sure though... cory cats been doing it since I got them 3 months ago, just got giant danios 3 weeks ago and they have been doing it for a week, or less.. I have never tested anything with my water other then PH, im poor and cant afford lots of testing stuff but im soon to get uhm... any one else have any ideas? they dont really seem sick at all.. they eat a lot and are all energetic... A couple of the cory cats seem to stay at the top of the water for a couple of minutes sucking at the top of the water while all the other dont.

tmy420
11-13-2005, 5:09 PM
what can cure this?

sublime1184
11-13-2005, 5:25 PM
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36783
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39759


The second link is all about ich.

daveedka
11-13-2005, 6:10 PM
Do you have chlorine or Chloramines. The flashing is a sign of gill irritation, this is often due to parasites as mentioned, but can also be due to ammonia burn. Immediatly after a water change test for ammonia. If it shows up then you probably have chloramines. You will neeed to switch to Prime or amquel plus as a water conditioner.

Stress coat may also be the problem, but I never had any trouble with it. the aloe may be caoting the gills and causing irritation. I'd quit using it for now and see if that helps as well. Like said I never had trouble, but I also never used anything more than the bare minimum needed to neutralize chlorine. Don't be decieved by the label. Almost all water treatments claim to be effective for chloramines but only a couple really are. And your fish do not need moisturizers (aloe) added to their water. Dry skin is seldom a problem in a fish tank.

There does not have to be visible spots on your fish for parasites to be present in the tank. so once ammonia burn is eliminated as a possibility, and you know it's not your water conditioner causing the flashing. I'd go with the next most likely culprit which is Ich. Once you run a full coarse ich treatment (no shortcuts, no mishaps) then if the problem still exists I'd look for the more obscure possibilities like gill flukes. With the sole symptom being Flashing at this point there are a lot of possibilities.
HTH
Dave

aquariumhobyist
11-13-2005, 6:19 PM
ya it definently sounds like ick or some parasite to me.

sumthin fishy
11-13-2005, 6:24 PM
.. I have never tested anything with my water other then PH, im poor and cant afford lots of testing stuff but im soon to get uhm... .
Test kits for ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte. Those are good starters. You can pick up a master test kit which should also have kh and gh (hardness and alkaninity) the last two are not as important for now, but will be as you learn(I still don't comprehend thier full efeects on water quality) The liquid tests are more accurate than the strips, and are relativly cheaper. I say relativly because they cost more per kit, but you will also get much more use out of the liquid kit. I have used the strips, and they work fine if that's all you can afford at the time, but generally they are not that accurate. There is no test kit for ich, parasites, etc. that I know of so you are stuck with learning thier symptoms.

gabrielandco.
11-13-2005, 7:59 PM
i have heard that "sometimes fish just have an itch." so, this is wrong info?
thanks!

tmy420
11-13-2005, 9:30 PM
I am a little worried, seem to be doing it more and more, I just did a water change today.....

like I said though, I almost want to say it isnt a sickness because they seem to be REALLY healthy... I want to say its something in the water or that stuff I put in...

A couple months ago i noticed a worm at the top of the water stuck to the glass, someone told me it was from uneaten food.. since then really clean my tank gravel and such.... havnt seen one since but maybe has something to do with it?

I also notice my cory doras breathing really harshly sometimes... but for the most part they all seem happy...

There seems to be somewhat of a lot of bubbles at the top of the tank but not a REALLY lot...


IF they tend to do it more on water changes, and then gets better over time, it should be that I have chlorine and the chlorine eventually disapears? Or the chlorine stuff im putting in there disapears?



Also I would like to add that not one fish has died in my tank since i started it 6-7 months ago.

NJ Devils Fan
11-13-2005, 9:50 PM
Sounds like Ich. Slowly raise the temperature of the tank to around 85 degrees. Raising the temperature will quicken the life cycle of the Ich as the duration of the life cycle is directly dependent on the temperature. Add a few teaspoons of salt to the tank, not too much as cories are not fans of salt. Take any carbon out of the filters and begin treatment with an Ich medicine. Follow the directions carefully and fully. If it says to treat for a certain amount of time and the tank looks clear before the end of treatment, keep treating the tank. When treatment is up, you can replace your carbon to remove the medication as well as a large water change.

daveedka
11-14-2005, 2:29 AM
i have heard that "sometimes fish just have an itch." so, this is wrong info?
thanks!

I have on a couple of occasions thought this, and every time I do I am later proven wrong.
The only time I have seen flashing in healthy fish is during fights between certain cichlids. They will engage, back off and flash immediatly. Any other time I have ever seen Flashing I eventually found a cause and cured it, or had a fish die before I diagnosed the cause. The bahavior with the cichlids is easy to identify because it only occurs during a fight.

Dave

tmy420
11-14-2005, 9:33 AM
How does the salt get taken out, doesnt?

tmy420
11-14-2005, 11:21 AM
I read on a web page to put the salt in, turn the temperature to 80, and put a sheet over the tank to make it dark.. I did this all... my question is how long do I have to have the sheet over the tank and when can I turn it off 80 since I have golden white cloud minnows in there also.. When do you get rid of the salt, or do you even get rid of the salt, I JUST did a big waterchange..

daveedka
11-14-2005, 11:28 AM
Please read the article linked by Sublime, the sheet is useless against ich. Salt needs to be at specified dosages, time frames are temperature dependant and outlined in the article. once the full treatment is complete (At least a couple of weeks maybe more) then you can remove the salt vis water changes.
Dave

NJ Devils Fan
11-14-2005, 11:36 AM
The salt dissolves in the water...

gabrielandco.
11-14-2005, 7:37 PM
thank you, dave, for you input!

another question, tmy said there were no white spots. if it is ich, wouldn't there be white spots?

tmy420
11-14-2005, 8:04 PM
Yes I also want to know this and asked in another thread... there is no white spots... and since im raising the temp shouldnt they come out? and if so when should they come out?

My tank was always pretty cold, is this why they never came out?

any input very appreciated...

tmy420
11-14-2005, 8:12 PM
also 2 more thing since we are talking spots.....

My 2 gold mountain cloud minnows always had little tiny black spots on their side and I thought it was normal... Them are the only spots ive ever seen and I almost want to say they are disapearing.. anyone know if there suposed to have black spots and if not what it is?

And...

Gold mountain could minnows need cold water, and I didnt know it when i bought them and was gunna try to get rid of them.. by raising the temp over 80 for 2 weeks or whatever would it kill them? they supposedly need something like 72 at the most..

daveedka
11-14-2005, 10:52 PM
another question, tmy said there were no white spots. if it is ich, wouldn't there be white spots?

In the case of a heavy outbreak, white spots will be visible. Most if not all internal parasites prefer the gills. The fish's gills are not protected with a slime coat, and furthermore they are rich with blood. Many fish are resisitive to ich, and almost all fish will build up some immunuty if faced with repeated attacks. With healthy fish, it is not uncommon for ich to never show up externally, but it will continually cycle through the three stages of life, and attach in the gills. This is precisely how ich hides for months or even years and then shows up as soon as something else stresses the fish. Since flashing is one of the most common symptoms, it is usually cause for concern.

I still think amonia should be checked first, and it is necessary to know if chloramines or chlorine are in the water supply. The flashing is predominant right after water changes and this does lend to improperly treated chloramines to some degree. I would only treat for ich after water conditions are verified as good.

If you are unable to find out whether or not Chloramines are in use, my reccomendation is to buy a bottle of "prime" water conditioner and use that exclusively. It will break the Chloramine bond and detoxify the ammonia that is left. If you switch to prime and the symptoms still occur after a few days I'd go the next step and treat for ich.

There are of course a lot of variables and possibilities when flashing is the only sign of a problem. Attack the most likely ones sytematically and take you time to make sure one thing is eliminated before starting to work on the next step. This will be easier on your fish and also when you do stop the problem you can be reasonably sure of what it was. If ammonia burn is the problem and you add salt and raise temps it will do more to harm than help things. However if you start by elimanating ammonia as a possible problem then you can go on to the next most likely and so on.


I have not kept White clouds, but As a general rule the concern with raising temperature is the oxygen level available. The warmer the water the less oxygen it carries. Most cold water fish require high oxygen levels. Normally if I am raising temperatures on any oxygen sensative fish, I just increase surface turbulence and circulation. Remember that the salt will kill the ich no matter what, raising the temp speeds up the life cycle of ich and therefore shortens the treatment period. Ich can be treated without the temperature increase it just takes much longer.

Dave

tmy420
11-14-2005, 11:47 PM
Thanks for all ur help.... Is it true that if theres ammonia that theres a lot of bubbles? I think I have a lot of bubbles on top but I also have lots of oxygen ( I have a 50gal penguin,and a 30 gal penguin both with biowheels) I dunno?

Thanks a lot for ur help dude

gabrielandco.
11-15-2005, 8:17 PM
another question....what if you hvae live plants? will the salt kill or injure the plants?

and thank you, dave, for such an informative response!

tmy420
11-16-2005, 9:58 AM
Ive turned down the temp because there not flashing AT ALL now..... Ive been running the tank very low on water and letting the 2 powerfilters make lots of movement and air... They would have atleast flashed as much or more if I had the heat on right? It seems like they are doing a lot better... So is it probably chlorine?

Roan Art
11-16-2005, 10:49 AM
Dave,
Could you describe what flashing looks like in more detail? Is it when a fish smacks itself against an object and then jumps away like it's been burned?

Could a sudden spurt from one end of the tank to the other or into a wall be construed as flashing?

Roan

Doitsu
11-16-2005, 11:21 AM
fish will also flash becuase of changes in PH or practically any other water parameter and he said it had tended to happen more often after water changes, sounds like a water quality issue to me.

gabrielandco.
11-16-2005, 9:35 PM
tmy, don't do a drastic temp change...that will stress the fish. a degree at a time is better.

tmy420
11-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Yeah I did it by degree for about 5-6 hours... Thanks for the info tho..

daveedka
11-17-2005, 7:29 AM
Could you describe what flashing looks like in more detail? Is it when a fish smacks itself against an object and then jumps away like it's been burned?

Could a sudden spurt from one end of the tank to the other or into a wall be construed as flashing?


By my definition, the first behavior you describe is flashing. The other I would affectionately term as panic. My definitions may be incorrect as Flashing is somewhat of an assigned term that is loosly used in many cases.


fish will also flash becuase of changes in PH or practically any other water parameter and he said it had tended to happen more often after water changes, sounds like a water quality issue to me.

Fish don't read Ph. My tanks fluctuate from 6.6 to 7.2 every day, and my change water is at 7.6-7.8. When I do my weekly water changes I usually do 40-80% depending on the tank and the need. I do not see any flashing from PH changes.

rapid change in dissolved solids levels will cause irritation and problem, but in a tank that recieves steady maintenanace with the same tap water each time, there should not be a big change in solids levels.
In a nutshell water changes should not cause stress unless the tank has been neglected, the temperature is off, or the disinfectant used is not dealt with properly.

tmy420 have you checked out your local water comonaies website to see if you are dealing with chlorine or Chloramines yet ?

Dave

Roan Art
11-17-2005, 7:57 AM
By my definition, the first behavior you describe is flashing. The other I would affectionately term as panic. My definitions may be incorrect as Flashing is somewhat of an assigned term that is loosly used in many cases.
Then this is worrisome to me. Jakers didn't even start to flash until day 2 of the treatment. Today is day 5. There's no visible sign of ich on him, but he's still flashing occasionally. He also does that panicked run I asked about.

This tells me that he either has ich inside his gills (possible?) that I cannot see or there is something else wrong.

I've dropped the temperature down to 83 from 86 but am continuing the salt. My thought is that the continued heat may be irritating him a bit, which would account for the panicked run.

I really don't want to hurt the otos (they look anything BUT hurt and are eating like pigs). Should I keep it like this for another week? Up the temperature again? What do you think?

If I up the temperature again, I'm going to hook up a small air pump to a micro bubble diffuser so I can be sure there is enough oxygen.

Roan

Doitsu
11-17-2005, 10:02 AM
"fish cant read PH", you got me, ill stop testing everything my fish cant read. swings in PH, whether you've experienced it or not can cause flashing, did you ever think that due to the regularity of your ph movement and the type of fish you have that they handle it well/gotten use to it?? someone who has or holds their PH at consistant level and experiences a relatively large jump or dive in PH level could notice flashing (and not have ich btw).


also imo saying this is ich is really premature, we have yet to even see ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels, the tank could be cycling from fresh or have been pushed into a mini cycle. with no white spots on the fish to physically identify ich and not knowing the water parameters i dont know how someone determines for a fact anything about any parasite or disease. still sounds like water quality to me, the salt youre adding will help reduce some stress.

daveedka
11-18-2005, 7:39 AM
"fish cant read PH", you got me, ill stop testing everything my fish cant read. swings in PH, whether you've experienced it or not can cause flashing, did you ever think that due to the regularity of your ph movement and the type of fish you have that they handle it well/gotten use to it?? someone who has or holds their PH at consistant level and experiences a relatively large jump or dive in PH level could notice flashing (and not have ich btw).



You could save yourself a little money on test kits. PH is largely a useless test aside form determining Co2 levels in the water. IF phosphate buffers are in play, Ph becomes even less useful as a test since phosphate buffers can negate the PH KH correlation.
Try making a large change in PH without making any change in solids, and you'll see that Ph has no effect on fish. Dissolved solids do have an effect and that is what people see the result of when fish are stressed From "PH" shock. If routine water changes are done, Then Tap and tank will match fairly well in solids and carbonate levels, and water changes will not stress the fish despite the fact that the out of tap Ph may be drastically different than the in tank PH. Most water companies force Ph to specified levels, and when you put it in the tank it will equalize to atmospheric levels. The PH change is insignificant if Solids remain constant. This is a small part of a huge PH myth in this hobby, and one we should probably discuss on a new thread so we aren't hijacking.


also imo saying this is ich is really premature, we have yet to even see ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels, the tank could be cycling from fresh or have been pushed into a mini cycle. with no white spots on the fish to physically identify ich and not knowing the water parameters i dont know how someone determines for a fact anything about any parasite or disease. still sounds like water quality to me,

I fully agreew with this, but one thing we have determined for sure in the last week is that tmy420 is not going to test water, not going to find out if he is dealing with chlorine or chloramines, he is not going to approach this issue in a sytematic calm manner and try to do what is best for the fish. This has been several days of helter skelter non-stop questions about multiple subjects without any feedback that allows us to help. At this point I just plan to answer whatever qiuestion pops up and go on. whether or not tmy420 uses that information is another matter. If the info is here other folks may use it to their benefit and gain something from it. If not Ohh Well, maybe tmy420 will get up in the morning test his tank water, check out his water companies website and then take that information and use it to some benefit or elimination of possibilities. I did not reccomend treating for ich first thing, I reccomended finding out if chloramines are in use since the water conditioner being used will not deal with chloramines properly. I also suggested at some point to sytematically rule out possibilities starting with water quality issues. To the best of my knowledge none of that has been done. But when someone asks for clarification about ICH particulars, since they won't take the time to read the article I generally try to give some kind of answer. The best part of all is that this question and surrounding sub questions are scattered all over the boards on multiple threads.

As far as the Questions from Roan Art, I see no reason not to clarify when I can. Roan Art is in an entirely differnt situation with many similar symptoms and some of the same questions have come up. You may wish to read the other posts of hers before you draw conclusions. I haven't gone back to check, but will just about bet that Roan Art tested water and knows the numbers for anyone who might ask.
Dave

tmy420
11-18-2005, 10:15 AM
Update:

I did a huge waterchange plus added Jungle ACE ammonia + chloromine remover and I havnt seen them flash yet...

It also seems like the golden white clouds might have been flashing to protect themselves or something... Cuz they were getting a little beat up by the giant danios... Seems like they are leaving them alone now.

After the gwc minnows got attacked they usually flashed... and experiences with that?

Im gunna go find my water companys web site and I will let you guys know.