Safe number of water changes

[pkdiaz]

I have had my 55 gallon aquarium for about a year now and my LFS advised me to add aquarium salt to my aquarium at each water change. I do a water change once a month. Because of the addition of the aquarium salt my PH has dropped really low to about 6.2. I have a community aquarium so this is not good. How often can I safely change the water to get the PH back up? I don't want to add any chemicals to raise it, because I know from experience, it won't work.

PS I was not aware that aquarium salt dropped PH until it was too late.

[OrionGirl]

I don't know that aquarium salt would drop your pH. I do know that marine salts contain buffers to raise pH, but this would be a first for the aquarium salt. Do you have anything in the tank that would release tannins (ie, leaf litter, driftwood, peat)? These definitely will drop pH--the amount depends on how hard your water is.

However, depending on what community fish you have, you don't need to add the salt. www.skepticalaquariast.com has some great info, if you're interested.

As for water changes, you can do as many water changes as you need to, just do them slowly when raising pH. A 20% water change won't raise the pH that much, so if you do a 20% change daily until it's at a higher level, you should be fine.

However, and once more, it really depends on what fish you have, your pH isn't so low that I'd worry much. Heck, planted tanks would love that level. If you aren't seeing a problem with any of your fish, instead of concentrating on raising the pH, I would just quit adding the salt, and continue doing water changes on your regular schedule.

[Faramir]

Aquarium salt does not drop pH. It may contain some alkaline buffers that may raise pH, but nothing that will cause it to lower.

Something else is causing the pH drop. What is your KH?

[pkdiaz]

I had 2 other LFS stores tell me that the aquarium salt is what was causing the PH to drop. Maybe no one around here knows anything about aquariums. I definitely don't. The fish store that I buy my fish from told me to add aquarium salt and a water conditioner to the water at every water change. She also told me to add Quick Cure for Ick although I do not have any ick problems. I was told by others that the aquarium salt was causing the problem. Maybe it is a combination of everything. My aquarium before always had a high PH of about 8, but my fish were fine. Now my fish seem to be kind of sluggish to me but they don't look sick. I have 3 Zebra Danios, a loach, 2 algae eaters, 2 goldfish, and 1 tetra-thanks to my goldfish who ate the other tetras. I know the goldfish are out of place in my community tank, but they don't seem to mind, other than the fact one of them developed an appetite for neon tetras. Now my last tetra thinks it is a danio. As of this month, all I have done is add the water conditioner at the water change. I left out the aquarium salt and Quick Cure. I don't have any plants. I am new to this and right now I am doing good to manage fish. None of my fish have died as a result of my care except for the time I bought fish from Wal-mart. They all died within a week. Is there anything else I should do? I want to add more fish. I was thinking something small in a school to add color, but I don't want my goldfish to eat them. Maybe one day I'll add plants.

[NJ Devils Fan]

What fish stores are around you that you go to. If's its like petco, they don't know what they are talking about and just want to make a sale. That person who told you to add quick cure even though your tank is fine is a moron, don't listen to her. You are treating nothing since no fish are sick.

No, the salt will not lower the ph.

[pkdiaz]

The pet store that gave me the ick advice was a small mom and pop store. The ones who told me that the aquarium salt was lowering the PH was PetSmart and another aquarium forum.

[NJ Devils Fan]

Wow, I'm surprised that they would give you rediculas advice like that.

[OrionGirl]

Definitely don't add any medications unless you have the symptoms. It stresses the fish, and can cause problems with the water quality.

In terms of adding fish...Well, let's find out a bit more. What size tank is this? One thing to note is that the goldfish, in addition to getting huge and making snacks out of tank mates, prefer cooler waters, while the danios and tetras like warmer waters. Long term, this might cause some problems.

There are people in all levels of the hobby that will give you goofy advice. I advise people to always think about the advice and research it. For example, you wouldn't believe it if you were told you needed to take cold medications even if you didn't have a cold, right? Same thing.

[RTR]

Agree with both the above, but will add a bit of my own feelings on the matter.

First ditch the salt additions. Salt (unless marine mix) will do nothing for you buffering, and in any case, the issues is elsewhere. Salt did not drop your pH, Old Tank Syndrome dropped your pH.

You have a year old tank with twelve total water changes of unspecified volumes. You have fish, which produce ammonia. Ammonia is oxidized to nitrite by bacteria. Nitrite is oxidized to nitrate by other bacteria. That nitrate stays unless you change your water sufficiently to remove it.

Step 1: Measure your nitrate in the tank. It should be below 40ppm nitrate at least. At best it should be at 10-20ppm. Do serial (daily) water partials until it is where it should be. Vacuum the gravel with every partial.

The nitrification process described of the bacteria oxidizing fish nitrogenous waste uses, burns up, the carbonate/bicarbonate buffering in the water. Each milliequavalent of nitrogen oxidized to nitrate from ammonia uses two milliequavalents of buffering - the units and measures are trivial to you, do not worry about them - just remember that when your tank's filters are working, the bacteria are using up your natural buffers while they are detoxifying the nitrogenous wastes.

Step 2: Measure the KH of your tap water and of your tank. They should be the same. If they are not, if the tank is lower, you have lost buffer and need to replace it. Regular, routine, preferably weekly, water changes will replenish the natural buffers in the tank with those in the tap water. Your GH in the tank is likely to be higher in the tank reflecting replaced evaporation over the last year.

Established tanks do not need a lot of testing when operating smoothly. They do need to be tested for nitrate at least monthly. If the nitrate is creeping upward, you need to increase the frequency and or volume of your water changes. If nitrate is stable and from 10-20ppm, you are doing just fine. If your tap water is low KH (KH 3 or KH <3), checking the KH at the same time is good also.

[OrionGirl]

Great explanation, RTR...Good catch.

[pkdiaz]

I have a 55 gallon aquarium and I do a 20% water change monthly. Is that enough of a water change? I once went to another forum to get advice and wasn't able to get much advice, but you all have been very helpful and I really thank you for all of the good advice, even though I do feel a little dumb now.

[pkdiaz]

Is this http://www.skepticalaquariast.com/ correct? I can't get the web site to open.

[OrionGirl]

Don't feel dumb. This is a hobby that lots of people have for years without really learning anything about their tank. You're taking steps to become an informed aquariast, and that's good.

Water changes are usually done as RTR advises--when the nitrAte levels rise. I do 20% changes on my planted 40 once a week. Other tanks are changed more frequently, or less, depending on the stocking level and such.

I'd measure the nitrates, and see where they are now. Start doing more often, and see if this helps stabilize the pH and KH levels. You may need to do more to begin with, just to get your tank back in balance. Testing should guide your actions.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ --I apologize for typos!

[beviking]

Originally posted by pkdiaz
Maybe no one around here knows anything about aquariums.

:( That hurts...that really hurts.

It's o.k. though. We all have been frazzled at one time or another. Just hang in there and keep asking questions.

Definitely don't add medications if there is no problem, especially at regular intervals. Fish process toxins (i.e. some medications like quick cure, formalin/formaldehyde) slowly so that any regular addition can accumulate in the fish and make them sick, sluggish, and die.

BTW- aquariums hold fish, that's something I know!

;)

[NJ Devils Fan]

you should do a 20%-25% water change every week to keep the nitrates down. The fish will be better off.

[RTR]

pkdiaz - there are things some folk already know, or are learning, that are new to others. That is why we have these boards, to share info and experience. All of us are "feeling dumb" in some areas - none of us knows it all or this would not be an art - we have some of the science, but not anywhere near all, or even enough.

One of the great aquarium myths is that if you change xx% of your water at y-interval, then you and your fish will be fine. Beeep!! False. Every tank is different, houses different dish, is fed different foods, uses different water, different filters, etc. There is no magic number. All you have to do is find the number that works for your tank under your care, and use it for youir partials. Then you do need to check it at times (I suggest at least monthly) because fish and your habits change over time, so you may need to change the number for that particular tank.

We use nitrates (because they are easily measured) but they serve as a hint of general pollution levels - if nitrates are up, so are phenols and all manner of DOC (dissolved organic compounds or dissolved organic carbon). We can'r test for all DOC, so we use nitrates.

In planted tanks, as OG mentioned, we have to wing it - plants use nitrate, so tests don't help us there. We select a partial percentage that seems in line with our other non-planted tanks and do that size change. That we do on faith, not data.

Bit by bit, we learn - all of us, not just novices.

[pkdiaz]

Thanks everyone for your assistance. I did daily water changes until I got the PH where I wanted it and my fish all have good color now, although they seem to be lazy to me. I quit putting all of the additives in. Now I only add water. Hopefully everything will be alright now.

[RTR]

Great, stick with it and the tank will stay stable - slow drifts over extended time are really hard to detect.

[JamisonBWolsh]

High Nitrates = Low Ph. In other words, if the nitrate level is high, it will decrease your PH. Whethor it is the Nitrates or the other chemicals that build up that is not measurable is causing the lowering of your ph. There is a big Hoop-rah as to the impacts of high nitrates. Personally, I dont think the nitrates itself have such a big impact on the fishes health (some poeple say otherwise). I do believe that high nitrates is an indicator as to the levels of the other compounds which can be hazerdous to your fish.
There are test kits that give you one safe level and some poeple that give another. I seen them (from different sources) fluctuate from 20-60ppm as a goal to set for your nitrates in you tank. 0ppm being the Ideal. I always believe 0ppm is the goal you should have. HOWEVER, I also believe that you should anilyze the TYPE of fish. Some fish cannot tolerate nitrates at all (discuss). While many others can tolerate levels to 100+ppm safely. Unfortunatly, I lost the website that calculates this for certain species. I dont think one person or source can give you a maximum nitrate level that is safe for your tank. Your going to have to take into account all the fish. The fish species that has the lowest maximum Nitrate level of all the fish in your tank is the level you should set at as a guideline.

[josephino]

Agree with both the above, but will add a bit of my own feelings on the matter.

First ditch the salt additions. Salt (unless marine mix) will do nothing for you buffering, and in any case, the issues is elsewhere. Salt did not drop your pH, Old Tank Syndrome dropped your pH.

You have a year old tank with twelve total water changes of unspecified volumes. You have fish, which produce ammonia. Ammonia is oxidized to nitrite by bacteria. Nitrite is oxidized to nitrate by other bacteria. That nitrate stays unless you change your water sufficiently to remove it.

Step 1: Measure your nitrate in the tank. It should be below 40ppm nitrate at least. At best it should be at 10-20ppm. Do serial (daily) water partials until it is where it should be. Vacuum the gravel with every partial.

The nitrification process described of the bacteria oxidizing fish nitrogenous waste uses, burns up, the carbonate/bicarbonate buffering in the water. Each milliequavalent of nitrogen oxidized to nitrate from ammonia uses two milliequavalents of buffering - the units and measures are trivial to you, do not worry about them - just remember that when your tank's filters are working, the bacteria are using up your natural buffers while they are detoxifying the nitrogenous wastes.

Step 2: Measure the KH of your tap water and of your tank. They should be the same. If they are not, if the tank is lower, you have lost buffer and need to replace it. Regular, routine, preferably weekly, water changes will replenish the natural buffers in the tank with those in the tap water. Your GH in the tank is likely to be higher in the tank reflecting replaced evaporation over the last year.

Established tanks do not need a lot of testing when operating smoothly. They do need to be tested for nitrate at least monthly. If the nitrate is creeping upward, you need to increase the frequency and or volume of your water changes. If nitrate is stable and from 10-20ppm, you are doing just fine. If your tap water is low KH (KH 3 or KH <3), checking the KH at the same time is good also.
Very good explanation! Thanks.

[zazz]

Originally posted by pkdiaz
Maybe no one around here knows anything about aquariums. :( That hurts...that really hurts.
;)

its even more ok. cuz i think shewas talking about her local fish stores, not about us :dance2:
IMO there are some chain stores with knowledgable employees and some mom and pop stores with really goofy ideas.
I am glad your fish are looking better.
you are still dechlorinating the water right?
prime or amquel or amquel plus are the most frequently recommended around here.

only time i can think of that my fish looked sluggish was when they were cold. your temp ok?