Advantge of Fishless Cycling?

[Forum221]

I am getting ready to get a new 75gal tank and I was wondering what is the advantage of fishless cycling. I think i'm just going to add one or two feeder fish into the tank everyday. Will this work, also im going to add some gravel and mabye a filter for a little while that is from an established tank. ???

[superstein61]

If you do a search for Fishless Cycle - you will find plenty of info re: benefits of this

[valerie]

I like fishless cyclign because i find it faster then when doing it with fish, that is if you add seed material first.

I also like it since you don't stress/kill any fish

Plus each time i do another fishless cycle i learn more about my tanks chemistry.

[Luca Brazzi]

I tried it... got partially through, and switched to feeders. Ive been trying to get my tank going for over 2 months using fishless. I got the 1st set of bacteria after about 3 weeks, but the second set wasnt catching up. The thing about fishless cycling is that unless you plan to fully/overstock once the tank is cycled you end up producing WAY more bacteria than your bioload will support.

[RTR]

Fishless cycling is easier, cleaner, safer and faster than cycling with fish - IF you do it right. If you do not follow instructions well; or do not have ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and KH kits and are not willing to buy them, then you will run into exactly the sort of problems that others have had.

But then you can run into problems with cycling with fish - fish death, permanent gill damage from ammonia, suffocation from nitrites, stress-induced disease outbreaks for which the treatment will set back or destroy the nitrification bacteria, etc.

Fishless has no risk of permanent damage or death to fish, allows for immediate full stocking without repeated mini-cycles as is the normal case for fishy cycling, and teaches the hobbyist how to read and interpret test results.

Personal choice.

[NJ Devils Fan]

Fishy cycling stress fish and takes longer. If you do a fishless cycle, like RTR said, its faster, cleaner, and safer- if you do it the right way. Mine took a little over a month to cycle. It finished last week and I was able to add about 15 fish to it in the first few days after it cycled because the tank had a big bioload. It could break down 5 ppm of ammonia and about 5-6 hours or so.

[Luca Brazzi]

The problem with the "Fishy cycling stresses fish" argument is this: Are the feeders this person is planning to use to cycle his/her tank less stressed at the Pet Store? Have any of you'all ever taken a good look at those feeder tanks? They are jam PACKED!!! I think I did those poor boogers a FAVOR by putting them into my tank. My tank is a paradise compared to where these fish came from. With me they get fed regularly, there is no overcrowding. Currently my water parameters arent perfect... there is still a little Nitrite there but...come on!

Now... the argument that I may be opening myself up to the possiblity of contracting some disease/parasite by using feeders is valid. But stressing the feeders? :rolleyes:

Forum221... What kind of and how many fish are you planning to keep?

[NJ Devils Fan]

Those feeders have it tough either way. They are jam packed in a tank, or they are put in a tank with comfortable space, but have very high ammonia/nitrite levels.

[Luca Brazzi]

Exactly my point NJ.

Now its true that most people will not Fishy cycle the way I did. My feeders were never exposed to high ammonia levels. I did the 1st part of my cycle fishless. I only added the feeders after my ammo went to 0. They are however, exposed to high Nitrite levels though (currently between 2. and .5 ppm and have been as high as 1ppm). But there are additives out there that ease the High Nitrite stress... salts/etc.

[Richer]

We can argue all we want about whether the conditions in your tank is better compared to what the feeders are exposed to. In the end, one question reminds. Sure, your feeders survived through the cycling process, infact, they lived in conditions that were far superior to that of the LFS... but now that your cycling is done, what are you going to do with those feeders? Keep in mind, many fish keepers don't keep dozens of tanks... many only have a few, of which are stocked. The problem with using fish to cycle a tank is, after all is said and done, what are you going to do with these fish?

-Richer

[Luca Brazzi]

Well, I havent decided.

Since these fish were intended to be a meal anyway, I guess Ive got a few options :D. I could net them and give them to someone with a big hungry fish since I dont yet have one myself. Then there is the DUKE NUKE EM scenario where I net em up and Euthanize (spelling) the whole lot (put them in a bowl of water and freeze them). Then there is the raise-my-own-feeders option which I like alot but would require another tank. These options are based on the fact that I want them out before I put my real fish in there. If I choose to leave them in and just add the Africans then they will slowly but surely get wacked, but I'd rather have them out, give my tank a chance to rid itself (with my help) of any nasties, then add the cichlids.

[JSchmidt]

The poor treatment of feeders only occurs because people buy them. If people refused to buy them, they would not suffer their current fate...

To get back on topic, I agree with most of what's been written in favor of fishless cycling. I would add that it also encourages patience. Patience and forethought are a pretty important ingredients in successful fishkeeping (I've learned this the hard way, I admit...) Having to sit thru a cycle forces us to understand that there are biological and chemical process at work in our tanks that have their own pace. We aren't cycling the tank... it is cycling and we get to watch.

Impatience/corner-cutting rarely leads to successful fish keeping.

Jim

[superstein61]

Boy Luca - remind me not to have you do me any favors ;)

"I think I did those poor boogers a FAVOR by putting them into my tank."

OK, and when you get done with them they become fish food or get frozen to death. Some favor . . . . . ;)

[NJ Devils Fan]

Or Luca, you can bring them back to the LFS and get money or some other fish.

[Luca Brazzi]

Impatience/corner-cutting rarely leads to successful fish keeping.

Hmmmmm. Isnt fishless cycling usually a shortcut when compared to fishy cycling?

Did I take an even shorter path using the feeders? Yes. I call it the "Half Fishless" method... It will work for those of us adding only a small number of medium fish or alot of small fish. You fishless cycle to the point where you get 0 ammo, then add feeders. Before adding the feeders to the tank my Nitrite readings were off the scale, and had been so for weeks. I added the feeders on Saturday, and this mornings Nitrite reading is .1ppm (by tomorrow this should be complete). Ive got roughly a 2 to 1 ratio of fish inches (2 inches of feeders for each inch of real fish I plan to add). Im not saying that this will work for all, and I dont recommend it, but as far as Im concerned the truth is in the readings. If I would have done this right after my Ammo went to 0 instead of continuing to add 5ppm ammo, I would have been done cycling MUCH sooner.


The poor treatment of feeders only occurs because people buy them. If people refused to buy them, they would not suffer their current fate...

I dont get this one?

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi


If I would have done this right after my Ammo went to 0 instead of continuing to add 5ppm ammo, I would have been done cycling MUCH sooner.




The alternative explanation is that you were near the end of a fishless cycle and the nitrites were nearly ready to drop anyway, but you became impatient and exposed a bunch of "disposable" fish that you don't want to high levels of nitrite.

My comment about feeders is simple: if people refused to buy feeders because of the inhumane ways in which they are kept, pet stores would either cease stocking them or keep them in better conditions. The mere fact that a creature is going to die as food for another is poor justification for keeping it in miserable and squalid conditions for weeks and months.

Jim

[Luca Brazzi]

The mere fact that a creature is going to die as food for another is poor justification for keeping it in miserable and squalid conditions for weeks and months

Well then in that case I think Ill have to become a vegetarian.:D

[spannah]

There are a number of ponds in the city parks, which currently are skating rinks, that have goldfish during summer months.

I am thinking of "dumping" the feeder comets that I used for cycling in one of those ponds. Then they would be free as free can be.

[ChilDawg]

But, Spannah, if there is flooding or something, wouldn't you be running the risk of goldfish getting into local waterways? That's how Florida became so overrun with all sorts of exotics.

[RTR]

Perhaps one of the worst things a hobbyists can do is dump unwanted fish in a natural water system.

That is a great way to get the entire hobby in trouble, as well as causing massive public expenditures to correct the thoughtless mess someone created. Great use of tax dollars that - really makes us all look like jerks.

[canucks]

Get a turtle! Mine love to eat little goldfish. (from a newbie and recent advocate of fishless cycling.)

[spannah]

ChilDawg,

Ahh, flooding...

Thats why we have the Winnipeg Floodway (http://www.arch.umanitoba.ca/greenmap/pages/GrnMp_floodway/) .

And here are some startling images (http://www.freenet.mb.ca/community/support/flood97/Gallery.html) of the 1997 flood.

Lotsa fresh water there ;)

[spannah]

RTR,

Thats, why I said thinking of

I prolly would consult with someone, like the city parks people, before doing that.

I would prefer doing that then taking them back to the LFS misery they came from.

I live in an apartment. Something bigger then my current 10 galon is too big. Due to being a novice and some LFS advice I got the 2 goldfish and used them for cycling. I know better now.

As much as I would like to keep them, I understand that just with those 2 the thank is overstocked, nevermind the 4 guppies that live with them. So the goldfishes should go somehwere else, but they have no where to go :(

[Luca Brazzi]

And to...


My comment about feeders is simple: if people refused to buy feeders because of the inhumane ways in which they are kept, pet stores would either cease stocking them or keep them in better conditions

Inhumane? Uh... these are fish, not humans.

Don't Animal Rights wackos only get involved when the animal is cute and furry (or large enough... as in the case of whales)? Wrong website pal.

Anyway....

News Flash: MY NITRITES ARE AT 0 Yaaaaaaaaaaay!

Now all I have to do is get rid of these dang ugly feeders I threw in there :D

[JSchmidt]

First of all, I'm not an animal rights wacko and I hope a moderator will warn you about personal attacks and slurs on these forums, especially on the newbie forum.

Also, I think YOU perhaps are at the wrong board if you think there is widespread support here for treating fish inhumanely. Humane treatment, incidentally, is that "marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals" (Merriam-Webster Dictionary). Why do you think that wouldn't apply to fish?

The purpose of this newbie forum is give those who are new to fishkeeping and to AC a safe place to post and to learn about good fish husbandry practices. Treating fish humanely is part of our responsibility as good fishkeepers.

Jim

[OrionGirl]

Luca Brazzi...Consider yourself warned. It is inappropriate to call someone names. You are advocating a rather poor treatment of fish. No one here will indicate that the life of a fish is more important than that of a human being. However, it is not a slight to human life to provide compassionate and caring attention to a non-human life, even if it isn't cute and fuzzy. To imply that fish of any kind are disposable is rude.

Spannah...It's a poor consideration. Stocking fish into waterways should be left to professionals. In many areas, what you are talking about (and even if you're just thinking about it, you're giving a bad idea to other people) is illegal and will be procescuted.

This thread is heading WAY off course. If it doesn't get back in line, it will be locked.

[Luca Brazzi]

Yeah... whatever. :o

Alright then... Animal Rights Activist... same thing.

The point remains the same, and it isn't off topic either. This thread was started by someone who was interested in cycling a tank using feeder fish. The discussion has been about what happens when you cycle with feeders (what to do with them afterwards, etc). Those that chose to voice their opposing opinions came here and jumped in of their own free will. If you dont like the fact that someone is cycling with feeders... fine voice your opinion or move on. However, I think that your position that people who buy feeders to feed their pets or cycle their tanks are rude, unthoughtful, and cruel is extremely weak, and hypocritical. If it weren't for ALL aquarists fish would not be killed by the thousands in transport from wherever it is they were caught to
the pet store, then to you, just so you could have a pet in your living room (these are NOT domesticated animals). If it weren't for ALL aquarist there would be no folks out there disturbing the natural ecosystems in the places where these fish come from just because they know they can make a couple of bucks selling them to us. If it werent for ALL aquarists there wouldnt be fish dealers who cross breed, inject with dye, and otherwise manipulate the natural form of these creatures just to turn a profit.

You see...

This is the hobby we have chosen!

If you TRULY cared about the overall well being of these animals they would ALL be left in the store (or public aquarium). So the demand for ALL of these fish would disappear, and they would be left in Lake Malawi, etc. where they belong.

We are all part of the same game.

For some of you, taking the anti-feeder side of this issue just helps you clear your conscious somewhat of the guilt you have for participating in this hobby. Its like someone who drives a huge 8-Cyclinder 1975 Cadillac calling someone who drives a 2002 SUV, an environmentally unfriendly gasguzzler. You think that someone who uses feeders to cycle their tank is contributing to the poor treatment of fish? Well if you own pet fish yourself, and you want to find the real culprit... you dont need to look here on this forum for a bad guy...all you need for that is a mirror.

You see... I realize that I'm the bad guy... and that allows me to be free of subconscious guilt.

The ONLY truly legitimate reasons, Ive heard so far for not using feeders to cycle your tank is that you open yourself up to the possiblity that your REAL fish will catch something from them, and it may take longer than fishless cycling.

[spannah]

OrionGirl,

I suggest you go back and read what I posted. I never mentioned dumping fish into waterways. I mentioned dumping fish into ponds.
I also said that before doing it I would consult with the people in charge of those ponds, so going on about it being illegal in some areas and prosecution is uncalled for.

And I beg to differ in your "lets not talk about it as not to give people ideas" opinion. It's like saying lets not talk about beginner mistakes because that may give people ideas.

I don't think that dumping fish into a pond or waterway is such a good idea anymore because I mentioned it in this thread and got good feedback from different people. I hope that others benefit from this information.

[OrionGirl]

Ponds are part of a water system. Flood levels introduce fish from one moving water into another moving water. It happens.

I understand that you won't, but I can gaurantee you that there are people who see half of the posts in a thread, and never check back. Sorry if you felt that you were making an innocent comment without any impact. This is something rather personal for me, because it's part of my job to deal with these issues.

Luca Brazzi...Being able to kill fish with a clear concious is nice, I'm sure. Hoever, you wouldn't appreciate it if we referred to you as a goldie murderer, would you? It's inappropriate to label someone based on one comment. There is a big difference between taking responsible care of fish, and deciding that they would have died anyway, so who cares.


I have no problem if you can provide tips regarding using a fish cycling method that reduces the exposure levels. If you want to make derogatory comments to people who disagree with you, there's a big problem.

That's strike two. Shall we go for three?

[Luca Brazzi]

Again... as I said...

Whatever.

[Richer]

I think this thread has run its course.

-Richer