disorantated [Archive] - Aquaria Central

thom336

02-20-2003, 12:22 PM

partyanimal, firstly good 2 hear from u. but b better under better circumstances. euthanasia is the best thing for this fish, as i used 2 hav this problem - i wont go into the details, but yes it leads 2 death. only, this death is a slow one. the problem lies within the swimbladder, it is possible that it has taken in too much air, and has overinflated it, or more likely the swimbladder has been damaged in some way or was deformed from birth leading to the problems you are experiancing in its later life. the most humane way of euthanasia is to hit the fish over the head with a hammer. do not leave them out of water, boil them, freeze or anything like that...anastetics are the best, but u hav 2 obtain them from a vet...cost and hassle is out of this world! alcochol acts as a slow anastetic, and prolongs the death, so i wouldnt recommend it. no point seperating the fish unless it falls 2 a disease due to its weakened resistance thru stress, as the swimbladder problem cannot be passed on, except possibly 2 offspring if it is a deformity. there is no way of treating this...hope this helps.

slipknottin

02-20-2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Wulfy
With all due respect, listen UP.

THE MOST HUMANE WAY TO EUTHANISE FISH IS TO PUT IT IN 1:4 or 1:5 solution of WATER AND VODKA. THIS IS FROM ICHTIOLOGISTS (Fish scientists).

I have researched the topic carefuly after I realised
that when I had to kill my beautiful Orenda I froze
the poor thing in a freezer. I feel so bad about doing
it that way. DO NOT REPEAT MY MISTAKE.

There is quite a bit of evidence suggesting fish dont feel pain. Probably didnt matter either way.

beviking

02-20-2003, 1:39 PM

I would get it out of there and dispose of it. How about this. A small plastic bag, preferably deep so you have a sizeable "handle". You net the fish, drop it in the bag, and with one good whirl, thump it against the side of the (tank, stand, window sill, kids head) whatever you feel is appropriate. That 15 seconds the fish is "feeling" anything is trivial I.M.O..

Bonus: If you wack it against the side of the tank, it may encourage the rest of the fish to swim more energeticly (sp?)! :D

wetmanNY

02-20-2003, 3:18 PM

All along, I've been quietly wondering, is "disorantated" what you are when you're wandering in the Algerian desert and can't find your way back to port?

Carry on. forget I said that...

Moreta

02-20-2003, 7:25 PM

Originally posted by wetmanNY
All along, I've been quietly wondering, is "disorantated" what you are when you're wandering in the Algerian desert and can't find your way back to port?

Carry on. forget I said that...

But Wetman....if the Algerian desert has a port doesn't that mean its on the sea? I mean its a beach then, right not a desert? An incredibly huge one nonetheless its still all sand...but if you're using alcohol as an anesthetic (Stoli+ lemon wedges works for me) and you get wacked by a drunken fish in a ziploc in the side of the head-yours not the fish-I mean the fish is drunk
can't stop...help...looping...

{{{{{ gaaaah! the pain in my head }}}

:D
+++++
Seriously, Partyanimal there isn't much you can do at this point except accept the inevitable. Good Luck!

Tracy

thom336

02-21-2003, 10:11 AM

of course fish feel pain...which is the main reason we're discussing euthanasia...2 put the fish out of its misery!!
im sorry, but what sort of fishkeeper doesnt care what their fish feels? freezing the fish is CRUEL...alcohol as anaestetic is CRUEL...whirling the fish around in a bag is CRUEL! simply net out the fish, cover it in a tissue and hit it with a hammer! fish do feel pain...but it wouldnt feel this as it wouldnt know it will be happening (do it as quick as you can), and it would be dead instantly. thank you for your time.

kveeti

02-21-2003, 12:25 PM

Some people (like me) just could never do the hammer thing.

I've had to put down fish on two occasions.

First time, I tried the alcohol/water thing. The fish swam around for a long time. That broke my heart; I would never do it again.

Next time, I found this formula: 1 mL clove oil, mixed with 4 mL vodka = a 5 mL solution for 1/2 gallon of water. The vodka is there only to make the clove oil mix with water, as otherwise it would float on top. (I ordered clove oil at the pharmacy, it's used for deadening toothache pain. It cost me $4 Canadian for an 8 mL bottle; I bought a child's dosage dropper for measuring.) The fish was out in under 10 seconds. NOTE, this only anesthetizes the fish, it doesn't kill it. After it is out like a light, then put it in the freezer, or keep it in the solution for several hours.

thom336

02-21-2003, 1:12 PM

i dont wanna sound rude...but did u not read my post? i.e.
freezing the fish is CRUEL...alcohol as anaestetic is CRUEL...[B]

slipknottin

02-21-2003, 1:21 PM

Originally posted by thom336
of course fish feel pain...

Do you have any evidence supporting your claim of fish feeling pain?

thom336

02-21-2003, 1:35 PM

its all to do with the nerves. the nerve endings send the reaction to CNS, which is either the spine or the brain. simple science. are you saying it is acceptable to freeze tropical fish when it comes to a case of euthanasia? slowing down their metabolism would kill them, but it would be a slow, like the alcohol anaestetic. causing the fish PAIN. it would be CRUEL. i dont believe people who would put their fish through this should be allowed to keep fish. well, my view is that backed by the OATA (official aquatics trade association). they control the fishkeeping trade in the UK.

jiggerpolebill

02-21-2003, 1:45 PM

personally, i think the WAY we put down our fish is primarily for us the, the fishkeepers. weve cared for them as much as possible and when situations like this arise, we like to see them go in a way, that in our eyes, that is humane and as pain-free as possible. fish feeling pain has come up before and after reading through a few articles online, i believe that fish do not have a receptary(?) system as advanced as ours and they way they feel or sense pain is so far different from ours that we cant possibly relate. i dont believe that fish ever experience what we would consider "agony". as "cruel" as the hammer method may seem(certainly more messy), its probably the fastest and best method when you take into the consideration the fish. its over before it knows whats happening and it doesnt feel a thing. fish freeze in nature every year, so i dont look at it as cruel. they dont freeze to death the way we would. their bodies simply adjust the metabolism rate as the temperature drops and eventually shuts down on its own. ive had fish ive caught ice fishing, come back to life hours after theyve been out of the water. simply gradually bring the temperature back up and slowly but sure theyre eventually swimming around again as if nothing happened.

of course, then i filleted them, but thats probably not how you want to put your pet down. think of the hammer method as the "old yellar" way of doing it. or simply do it in a manner that is beneficial to your feelings on the matter. the end result will be the same and your fish isnt going to suffer for long.

jiggerpolebill

02-21-2003, 1:55 PM

OATA - do you mean Ornamental Aquatics Trade ***.?

i disagree with you about how fish feel pain, or maybe more accurately, how we perceive fish to feel pain.

kveeti

02-21-2003, 2:18 PM

just more reading material, this has been posted before
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm

ChilDawg

02-21-2003, 2:39 PM

Note, though, that I did not suggest the freezing method as a stand-alone. I suggested it with carbonated soda used as an anaesthetic, but the "Old Yeller" method (finally, a somewhat tasteful name for it) would be the best according to all my books (if you can do it right the first time). The carbonation/freezer method is still close to "painless," assuming, of course, that fish can feel pain. Maybe we should all do some reading (groans from all) and post as we find out new information on fish pain and best methods of euthanasia. I apologize to Party Animal for the position of the fish. I, too, have been there with one of my Otocincluses and it was a hard decision. I must admit that I used the carbonation/freezer method and I hope that he went peacefully along to that big tank in the sky, where everything is stocked perfectly and water changes are done right on time. :)

slipknottin

02-21-2003, 2:54 PM

Originally posted by thom336
its all to do with the nerves. the nerve endings send the reaction to CNS, which is either the spine or the brain. simple science.

Dont confuse reaction to external stimulus with a feeling of pain. Being able to feel pain is not a common trait of all animals. It is a developed process in specific regions of the ceberal cortex. Parts which fish do not have.

Moreta

02-21-2003, 6:01 PM

This is one opinion, by a scientist....i.e. in short "No"

http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm

and this, from the "animal liberation front"-I admit I didn't expect this answer as I truly disagree with those folks...also "No"

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Fur--Hunting/Do%20Fish%20Feel%20Pain.htm

There was much more, in the interest of brevity I chose those two. I believe these reinforce the assertation that fish do not feel pain in the way humans do.

But, you've got to draw your own conclusions...

Tracy

thom336

02-22-2003, 3:26 PM

wulfy:
"DO NOT REPEAT MY MISTAKE."
- what more do u need to tell you against using the freezing method than a personal experiance?

kveeti:
"clove oil"
- funny you should mention it...

i, also, did som research on euthanasia of fish, and found this method the most humane. a solution of clove oil and water (from the aquarium...and kept at the correct temperature!!) should slow the metabolism of the fish down right to death. it is alot cheaper than any vet prescribed anaestetic, and works just as well. keep the fish in the solution until all gill movement has stopped, then take it out and hit it with a hammer to ensure it is dead. no, before u ask, i dont hav a thing with hitting fish with hammers....its just an instant way to kill them. now, that method i found in my latest issue of practical fishkeeping which arrived on my doorstep this morning...quite appropriate i thought. visit www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
if you argue against this method then....well....what a sad life you must lead. and on the topic of fish feeling pain....yes, all living things do feel pain, it is thought (and scientific research going into) that even plants feel pain. of course, plants dont concieve pain in the same way as us, but fish do. if you cant find evidence that they dont, then PLZ dont put them thru it on a hunch that they dont. it isnt worth it when it can be avoided.

jiggerpolebill

02-22-2003, 10:47 PM

guess you didnt bother reading any of the above links on the other posts.

if youre just going to hit it with a hammer anyway, why even bother stressing the fish by putting it in another container with the clove oil? why bother taking the time to slow its metabolism? just get your hammer ready, net it, hit it and be done with it. your link doesnt work, or at least it didnt for me.

all living things feel pain? interesting. how does a single cell organism feel pain? fish do not feel pain the way we do. if they did, then theyd also feel everything else we the way we do as well. how much evidence do you need for that? we arent built the same. do you really need proof of that as well? if youre having such a hard time finding evidence, simply click on the links in the posts above.

http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/faq/pain.htm

http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm

http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish%20pain/Pain.htm

http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/pain.htm

http://www.richardlouv.com/The%20Angler's%20Manifesto.html

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/edu/water/chap3.htm

there's a start for you. so as not to be biased, i put in arguments for both cases. either way, we dont share the same physiology, so we dont feel things the same. all living things do not feel pain.

thom336

02-23-2003, 5:37 AM

me and you dont hav the same phisiology...doesnt mean one of us doesnt feel pain, does it? r u sayin that the fish wouldnt mind if u picked its scales off one by one? or a cory wouldnt mind if u plucked its barbels? would they not feel it? if you use same water from your aquarium and a resonable sized tank when u admister the clove oil, then the fish would not feel stressed.the suggestion of clove oil was put forward as many of u seemed unable to just hit a fish with a hammer while it was fully active. (btw...my link is workin now...i just checked it.) i dont think we're ever gonna settle this...none of us seem 2 want to agree with each other, so i suggest that unless someone has a great way of settling this, then we drop then whole euthanasia disagreement and do what we individually believe is best for our fish. (nb: this is not me givin in - its just a mature way of handling things.) however, i suggest u all look at my link thou. its a gr8 website from a great magazine.
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk

thom336

02-23-2003, 2:31 PM

no, i do not see researching the topic necessary. there is no doubt in my mind that they do feel pain...and i do not feel there should be any doubt in anybodies mind. that is my view...and i stand by it, and swear by it. of course fish feel pain, u look at them in your aquarium, put ur hand on ur heart, and say they dont. this is not basing anything on science, experiance, or any of that...its from the heart, and a personal opinion. fish do feel pain, and i will never believe any other way. i will find scientific evidence if you want, but is it really necessary?

jiggerpolebill

02-23-2003, 11:12 PM

unfortunately thom336, im not as mature as you, so i have to kick the dead horse. let me start with my quote:

we dont share the same physiology, so we dont feel things the same.

i guess i should have been a little more specific because i cant believe just how far over your head it went. when i mentioned "we" in the above, i meant "we" as in "humans and fish". next, your response:

me and you dont hav the same phisiology...doesnt mean one of us doesnt feel pain, does it? r u sayin that the fish wouldnt mind if u picked its scales off one by one?

explain to me how you and i arent the same physiologically speaking. do you have a 3rd arm or perhaps some organ that enables you to breathe underwater? me and you and every other human on the planet are, for the most part, physiologically the same. we all have hands, livers, hearts, etc that are constructed the same. the main difference would come between sexes. there is not part of you or me that is like a fish. there is no part of a fish that is like us. if that were the case, we'd probably never run out of organ donors, would we? we dont have fins. fish dont have feet or elbows. does that make a little more sense now?

no, i do not see researching the topic necessary. there is no doubt in my mind that they do feel pain...and i do not feel there should be any doubt in anybodies mind.

with this same line of thinking, if you think the world is flat because you cant see across the ocean to us, then it simply must be flat and we're all a bunch of idiots to think otherwise.

this is not basing anything on science, experiance, or any of that...its from the heart, and a personal opinion.

do you apply that same rationale to your everyday life as well? how do you ever expect to gain any credibility with this hobby or any other if thats your line of thought? "well, even though i dont keep them in my tank, i dont think you should keep zebra danios with leopard danios because it just doesnt sound right to me. everybody knows leopards like to eat zebras, so it wouldnt be a good idea."

fish do feel pain, and i will never believe any other way. i will find scientific evidence if you want, but is it really necessary?

you dont even have to do the leg work anymore for it! weve started for you, and even gave you some info to base your argument on! you want to believe that fish feel everything the same way you do, go right ahead. but at least make SOME kind of attempt to back it up, especially when youre giving people the 3rd degree on how you think theyre wrong.

thom336

02-24-2003, 6:44 AM

i must say...this is the first ive heard on leapord danios eating zebra danios...
i have a respect for fish, and i am thinking that you lot do as well. i didnt do all this for an arguement to happen....all i wanted to do on this post was help out an old friend of mine, partyanimal1uk, with her problem. this all started when it was claimed that fish dont feel pain. obviously we have a different way on looking on the subject....i tried 2 stop the arguement numerous times over, and accepted ur opinions, yet u lot continue to fire ur arguement at me. i am prepared to agree to disagree, and i should hope you lot would be as well.

one last point...evidence? im soon to go onto study aquatics and fisheries management at sparsholt college, the leading aquatic university in the UK. i dont get there thru limited scientific knowledge.

ChilDawg

02-24-2003, 6:51 AM

I think that the leopards eating zebras was meant to be satirical, not to be accepted as fact (though I'm not sure what exactly the attrition rate on zebra babies would be in a tank full of leopards). I like the idea to agree to disagree, and I hope that we can all agree on that for now.

thom336

02-24-2003, 6:55 AM

(i guessed it was sarcasm...lol)
thank you childawg for that note...i dont think i could have put it better.

and as for those zebra danio babies....how well planted is this "tank"? if theres plenty of hiding places, you might get som survivors.

slipknottin

02-24-2003, 9:44 AM

Originally posted by thom336
obviously we have a different way on looking on the subject....i tried 2 stop the arguement numerous times over, and accepted ur opinions, yet u lot continue to fire ur arguement at me. i am prepared to agree to disagree, and i should hope you lot would be as well.

You havent accepted anything. There is scientific proof that they dont. Not opinions. You keep saying "well I disagree", but you have made no attempt to explain what you disagree with.

one last point...evidence? im soon to go onto study aquatics and fisheries management at sparsholt college, the leading aquatic university in the UK. i dont get there thru limited scientific knowledge.

I dont see how thats related to this discussion at all. If this is a poor attempt to brag about something then its best left off the forums.

Moreta

02-24-2003, 10:11 AM

:D Slipknottin,

You can't intellegently discuss something with someone whose" mind is made up-don't confuse me with the facts !" and closed to opposing ideas. It's a waste of time and energy.

Tracy

thom336

02-25-2003, 3:36 AM

ok...
it would appear to me, after talking to acadministration - to which my thanks goto Dale, that you lot did not quite take what i was saying in the way it was intended. to which extent i would just like to correct afew things which you may have taken wrongly.
- firstly, i was not bragging, i was merely letting you know that i do have some scientific knowledge.
- secondly, i did not, in any way, mean to come across as harsh or, well, i cant think of the word at the minute. But im sorry if i offended any of you in any way. thats the word - offensive.
- thirdly, i was just trying to put across my opinion, and i did take on all that everyone said - i just have a belief, that goes beyond my fishkeeping, that all living things feel stuff - its like them all having a soul.
- fourthly, it was pointed out to me by Dale (i hope that was his name - or im gonna look a fool) thatyou cant read a tone of voice, and that many of you may have pictured my tone of voice in a different way it was intended.
Thanks, for reading, and i hope this does clear some air.

Thom.

PartyAnimal1UK

02-25-2003, 1:27 PM

Hey sorry i haven't been around computer crashed anyway some interesting reading. First of all hi Thomas not seen you for a while will have to catch up. second i can't beleive my post has started so much tension. I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c. And third the fish died, so thats ended that one. Thanks for you help guys, even if i did cause ruptions.

slipknottin

02-25-2003, 1:41 PM

Originally posted by PartyAnimal1UK
I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c.

Reaction to stimuli does not indicate pain. There have been numerous links provided showing fish dont feel pain like we do. It is not a "belief".

Slappy*McFish

02-25-2003, 4:58 PM

[Quote from one of the links provided by jiggerpolebill]

"The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience the emotional distress and suffering of pain. Thus, the struggles of a fish don’t signify suffering when the fish is seized in the talons of an osprey, when it is devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear, or when it is caught by an angler".

I think this pretty much sums it up.
:rolleyes:

thom336

02-26-2003, 3:22 AM

partyanimal...great to hear from you. and agreeing with me, thats certainly an added bonus in any case!

mr mcfish, your quote does include the words "highly unlikely" and "signify" - which are words that are used when something is being suggested, such as a prediction prior to an experiment. It also doesnt actually provide any evidence at all that fish do not feel pain...it claims that "The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience", yet it does not state these facts. Basically, from where i am standing, this quote appears to be using alot of big words to try and impress, but has no evidence backing it at all. So, in conclusion, i do not believe this quote sums it up at all....and when was the last time a white cloud mountain minnow was "seized in the talons of an osprey", "devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear", or "caught by an angler"? Im afraid im not talking about salmon and trout, which that quote was apparently based around.

So much for agreeing to disagree.....one other point that came to mind when partyanimal said "I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c." is that all fishkeepers are trying to reduce stress for their fish, but if they dont feel pain, like you lot are claiming (beg my pardon partyanimal), then why are you trying to 'make them more comfortable'?

One final point is that maybe this is a difference in opinion between how we keep and think about fish in England, and how you do it in USA. I say this based on evidence because me and Partyanimal are, as far as i know, the only two English to post comments here, and are in fact, from what ive seen the only two to believe that fish feel pain....

Yes, we will have to catch up partyanimal, i thought ud forgotten me...lol.

thom336

02-26-2003, 4:41 AM

well, u complained i didnt do research, so here goes:

www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/ Biology/0104/b00870d.html

fp.marksfish.f9.co.uk/fish_plants/tropical11.htm

www.pisces.demon.co.uk/pain.html

They actually make some very good reading...although i havent had the chance to look through them properly yet.

slipknottin

02-26-2003, 9:59 AM

Originally posted by thom336
well, u complained i didnt do research, so here goes:

www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/ Biology/0104/b00870d.html

fp.marksfish.f9.co.uk/fish_plants/tropical11.htm

www.pisces.demon.co.uk/pain.html

They actually make some very good reading...although i havent had the chance to look through them properly yet.

Your first link says they respond to outside stimuli, no comments are made about them feeling pain.

Your second link says
"judging from accumulating evidence based on anatomical, biochemical and behavioural studies." I mentioned that fish probably perceive pain in a different way to us: we simply do not know what they feel.

And your third link seems to imply that because they have brains that they feel pain. A pretty poor and unfounded argument. Furthermore, that paper was written in 1994. and states clearly

All the fundamental structures and modulation processes necessary to achieve a perception of pain are present in fish.

We now know that isnt true, recent tests have proved otherwise.

You would likely argue with that last link yourself, as you said earlier you believe everything including plants feels pain.

I dont see why where your from has anything to do with the argument at hand. You keep attempting to turn this into a moral arguemnt which it is not. I certainly treat my fish well, and knowning that they dont feel pain isnt going to make me treat them any differently.

Slappy*McFish

02-26-2003, 1:43 PM

I read all the links provided and my conclusion is that fish lack the intelligence to "dwell" on "pain"....sure, they feel stimuli, but they arent thinking "**** this hurts!!!!...I'm going to die!!!...omg!!!"....have you ever cut yourself before and not noticed it until you actually saw blood and then only just realized that you cut yourself?...funny how it starts to hurt after realization and thinking about it....Fish don't know or think about the fact that they are hurting...they are just reacting to stimuli...sure fish may actually feel "pain" but just don't have the mental capacity to associate it with discomfort like we humans do.

spikekillifish

02-26-2003, 3:48 PM

The Native American Fish Association recomends you place the fish quickly between two sheets of paper or plastic then smash the fish with a rock or hammer, they will never know what hit them. If the fish is not diseased you can feed the remains to your other fish.

jiggerpolebill

02-26-2003, 11:06 PM

so now were going to go species specific on which fish feels more pain?

and when was the last time a white cloud mountain minnow was "seized in the talons of an osprey", "devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear", or "caught by an angler"? Im afraid im not talking about salmon and trout, which that quote was apparently based around.

how bout this? when was the last time a white cloud minnow was snagged in a turtles jaws, a birds beak or a bigger fishes mouth? does that help out any?

mr mcfish, your quote does include the words "highly unlikely" and "signify" - which are words that are used when something is being suggested, such as a prediction prior to an experiment. It also doesnt actually provide any evidence at all that fish do not feel pain...it claims that "The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience", yet it does not state these facts.

and you really have the nerve to type this before you went out on your own to support your own argument? please. youre in england and here we are in america. big deal. sorry but im not buying the whole language/culture difference for this one.

So much for agreeing to disagree.....one other point that came to mind when partyanimal said "I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c." is that all fishkeepers are trying to reduce stress for their fish, but if they dont feel pain, like you lot are claiming (beg my pardon partyanimal), then why are you trying to 'make them more comfortable'?

stress and physical pain. two different subjects completely.

One final point is that maybe this is a difference in opinion between how we keep and think about fish in England, and how you do it in USA.

two letters. 'B' and 'S'. lastly...

"what do you call a fish with no eyes? - a fsh!"

good one!:D

spikekillifish

02-26-2003, 11:28 PM

This discussion could go round and round with out a definitive answer. What's important I think is our perception of a diseased or suffering fish that brings out a compasion related to our own experiences of pain and suffering. It makes us feel at ease if we can somehow aid or put an end to this misery whether its a fish, or any type of living creature. I myself will assume that a fish does feel pain just incase the theorists are wrong.

thom336

02-27-2003, 4:10 AM

"The RSPCA believes that current practices in angling do involve infliction of pain and suffering on fish."
- Royal Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Animals

"I myself will assume that a fish does feel pain"
- spikekillifish

"I believe myself that fish do feel pain"
- PartyAnimal1UK

"there is no doubt in my mind that they (fish) do feel pain"
- thom336

"'but do fish feel pain?' he enquired.
'They most certainly do,' bounced my reply"
- Dr Peter Burgess

slipknottin

02-27-2003, 6:51 AM

Wow, quoting people in this thread. :rolleyes:

As Ive said, in order to validate your case, you need to tell us what it is you disagree with, and show proof of you being correct.

Sayin "I believe they feel pain" is directly contrary to the experiments and tests being done by experts in the field. You have shown no proof indicating that they do feel pain, other than misguided or misinformed quotes.

thom336

02-27-2003, 9:05 AM

my quotes were neither misguided or misinformed. in fact, 2 of them were quoted from resents replys...so they had read ALL the arguements...includin urs, and went for what they thought were best. That is what is called a balanced arguement. The others, except mine, were from experts in the field. mine is, well, my opinion. i dont think mine really needs covering...lol.

and saying: "i believe they feel pain" is not directly contary, or contary at all to the tests and experiments done by experts in the fields....in fact Dr Peter Burgess is britains best selling fishkeeping magazine's top fish health expert...and that agrees entirely with him!

slipknottin

02-27-2003, 1:11 PM

Originally posted by thom336

and saying: "i believe they feel pain" is not directly contary, or contary at all to the tests and experiments done by experts in the fields....in fact Dr Peter Burgess is britains best selling fishkeeping magazine's top fish health expert...and that agrees entirely with him!

Dr. Peter Burgess explicitly says
I mentioned that fish probably perceive pain in a different way to us: we simply do not know what they feel.

His article was written a year ago, and says they do likely because he hadent heard of the studies being done to prove otherwise.

What you believe or dont believe isnt entirely relevant.

Hammerman

02-27-2003, 1:29 PM

Please, understand by no means do I intend to ruffle anyone's feathers,

But I have been reading this post over and over and one question I've now had to asked myself is,

If fish do not feel pain, does that mean they do not suffer?

I'm only asking this because you see the word "suffer" used time and time again in threads posted here. Are we just using that word because of our own compassion or empathy for a living thing?

Just asking...

Thanks~
Scott

Moreta

02-27-2003, 1:49 PM

Hammerman,

I think it's empathy that causes us to be concerned about our pets suffering- which is not a bad thing by any means-but can be carried too far. See definition #2.

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{From Dictionary.com}

anthropomorphic

Main Entry: an·thro·po·mor·phic
Pronunciation: "an(t)-thr&-p&-'mor-fik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin anthropomorphus of human form, from Greek anthrOpomorphos, from anthrOp- + -morphos -morphous
Date: 1827

1 : described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes <anthropomorphic deities>

2 : ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things <anthropomorphic supernaturalism>

- an·thro·po·mor·phi·cal·ly /-fi-k(&-)lE/ adverb
=========

Tracy

PartyAnimal1UK

02-27-2003, 3:38 PM

Hey guys thanks for all your replys but i think this subject should be left well alone and this post locked if poss, we are just going round and round in circles and this isn't getting us anywhere so lets all agree to disagree and get back to some seroius fishkeeping what do all you guys say??

slipknottin

02-27-2003, 4:02 PM

Ill agree to disagree as soon as their is evidence posted that indicates that fish feel pain. I have seen no such evidence. Only things thus far that have been supplied for that side of the argument are peoples own opinions or beliefs.

Woozledad

02-27-2003, 7:03 PM

Geezzzz.... Unless one of you is actually a REALLY talented fish, will we ever REALLY know for sure if fish feel pain.... Therefore, how about acting like adults and putting this topic to rest...

Quite frankly, it's unfortunate that a moderator of this board is actually continuing to argue this point when it's obvious there is no way to "PROVE" or "dis-PROVE" the point....

Actually, this makes the second time I've witnessed a moderator of the board act in a way that I felt was unappropriate, considering they are moderators....But thats just my opinion....

Slappy*McFish

02-27-2003, 7:29 PM

I see this as an interesting discussion...this is a public forum is it not? We are here to discuss, debate, and just talk in general..and since there have not been any vulgar personal attacks, I think it would be rediculous to lock this thread.

O-man21

02-27-2003, 7:35 PM

We..(the human race) would test if a fish can feel pain(we have the means)but noone is in the mood to subject a 2 millon dollar machine to getting wet and shortingout.

slipknottin

02-27-2003, 8:46 PM

Originally posted by Woozledad
Geezzzz.... Unless one of you is actually a REALLY talented fish, will we ever REALLY know for sure if fish feel pain.... Therefore, how about acting like adults and putting this topic to rest...

The adult thing to do? Maybe you hadent noticed that some highly intelligent people are out there right now doing research on this exact topic. I dont see how we cant find out if fish feel pain or not. There has been quite a bit of reasearch done on the topic and it is very interesting.

Quite frankly, it's unfortunate that a moderator of this board is actually continuing to argue this point when it's obvious there is no way to "PROVE" or "dis-PROVE" the point....

Continuing to argue my point? Gee, im sorry, I didnt know moderators couldnt hold opinions. There are ways to prove your point. One of them is by reading articles and documents written by people who have experience with the topic. That some of these Drs. have done tests that they believe proves fish dont feel pain means that this can be debated and proven one way or the other.

Actually, this makes the second time I've witnessed a moderator of the board act in a way that I felt was unappropriate, considering they are moderators....But thats just my opinion....

Im sorry if you believe I am being unappropriate. I suppose as soon as anyone has a difference of opinion I should lock the post and run away.

Woozledad

02-27-2003, 9:44 PM

Gee, im sorry, I didnt know moderators couldnt hold opinions.

Actually, I do value your more experienced opinion. But, IN MY OPINION, some of your posts seem to be a little disrespectful to those that don't hold YOUR opinion, in this thread.

I dont see how we cant find out if fish feel pain or not.

Actually, a human will never KNOW (know=To regard as true beyond doubt) how a fish FEELS (feel=To perceive as a physical sensation)

There are ways to prove your point. One of them is by reading articles and documents written by people who have experience with the topic. That some of these Drs. have done tests that they believe proves fish dont feel pain means that this can be debated and proven one way or the other.

NO, this does not PROVE your point, it would simply refer others to the articles written by DRS. who believe fish don't feel pain...simply stated, articles that would support your own opinion...if I cared enough, I could waste time by finding articles written by drs. that believed fish do feel pain, and this still would not PROVE the point ...

Im sorry if you believe I am being unappropriate. I suppose as soon as anyone has a difference of opinion I should lock the post and run away.

No, I would not have you lock this topic up and run away....I'm just saying, as a moderator, you SHOULD be a little more respectful of others opinions. It is completely fine for you to have differing opinions and debating them here is perfectly fine...But, it seems that the discussion has become a little heated and you keep fanning the flames...I don't believe THOM336 or anyone else needs to prove their opinions to you, which you keep insisting he does and I feel it is a little inappropriate. On several occassions THOM336 has tried to gracefully bow out of this debate and you won't let it die...In my opinion, that is bullying and innappropriate...

What you believe or dont believe isnt entirely relevant.

Then I suppose your beliefs aren't relevant either???

slipknottin

02-27-2003, 9:48 PM

Well this isnt going anywhere fast.

I have stated throughout this thread I would agree to drop this as soon as I see any proof indicating that fish feel pain. So far I have seen none.

And no, the links are not the doctors opinions on the subject. Most make it distinctly clear that fish do not have the part of the brain that is responsible for the feeling of pain. Thats not opinion.

I have not been disrespectful by asking someone to show evidence of their position on a topic. This isnt a moral debate, its a debate of factual evidence, a debate you can show evidence of.

thom336

02-28-2003, 3:22 AM

im not sure if any1 else noticed this...but as soon as the attacked was aimed against slipknottin he began to want to end the
arguement. just thought i'd point that out.

anyways...i have the evidence i think proves that fish feel some sort of pain. reading articles and reports wasnt getting us anywhere....so i went and watched my fish for a while (like all good fishkeepers do).

while watching my aquarium, i remembered the great summer days when the fish swim in the sunlight coming through the window before i turn their light on....and i also remembered that summer is when my angelfish breed. i hav 2 breeding pairs in my tank...so when one is breeding, the other gets chased away, barged and pecked at. But, if these fish dont feel pain, then y do they back down and go away? if they didnt feel pain then they would have no reason to back down....

this is evidence you cannot dispute, and trust me those angelfish can give a nasty nip....i should never hav tried 2 put that guard round their eggs....

One final point i would like to make...moderators are not necessarily the more experiance or more knowledgable fishkeepers on the forum, just because some peoples things may say 'junior member', it doesnt mean they are a junior fishkeeper. please bear that in mind.

thom336

02-28-2003, 3:58 AM

just one more point...i agree with PartyAnimal1UK, Woozledad, and afew others that we should put this to rest, end it while the going good...before someone does get personal (not indicating it would be me), and agreeing to disagree would be the best thing for this topic, as it will never be known whether fish feel pain or not, well, maybe in afew centries time...but lets not go there. The best we're gonna get is proof that fish react to stimulus, which is proven. The best we're gonna get on the pain account is personal opinions and beliefs. The cases have been presented, and now i think it is time for people to decide for themselves what to think.

Woozledad

02-28-2003, 7:30 AM

I agree...

I respect all more experienced opinions, seeing how I've only had an aquarium for about 3 weeks, that means just about everyone, lol....

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 8:50 AM

Originally posted by thom336
im not sure if any1 else noticed this...but as soon as the attacked was aimed against slipknottin he began to want to end the
arguement. just thought i'd point that out.

I never said I wanted to end the argument.

so when one is breeding, the other gets chased away, barged and pecked at. But, if these fish dont feel pain, then y do they back down and go away? if they didnt feel pain then they would have no reason to back down....

Simple, there responding to stimulus. When you stick your hand under hot water, you pull it back immediatly, before it "hurts". You remember that hot water is bad, and you try to remember not to do that again.

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 8:52 AM

Originally posted by thom336
as it will never be known whether fish feel pain or not

Very simple question. If fish dont have the part of the brain neccessary for pain, how do they feel pain?

beviking

02-28-2003, 9:39 AM

Very interesting!
It's very hard to interpret the tone of written material.
Pain? B/c I get cut on my finger, some synapses transfer (chemicals, ions, something) along to each other across numerous ganglia eventually reaching my brain. My brain acknowledges this. Intercept this transmission (ie accupuncture) or remove the ability to perceive (drugs) and there is no pain. The wound is there still. Do fish have this advanced nervous system? If so, can they perceive it?
This seems to be the debate. Not who is flaming who.
Seems to me Slip is looking for documented evidence to say "Yes" fish perceive pain.
As for fish backing down from one another, I don't believe this constitutes an arguement for them feeling pain. Big Horn sheep SMASH heads to establish dominance. Man that has got to hurt! Experts say no b/c they have specialized skulls that absorb the blow. But one backs down anyway. Why? Again, we look to experts to explain it.

Now thom336, I am not saying you are wrong, I don't know absolutely. I personally don't believe fish feel pain as we do however. I would certainly like to see evidence (documented by "experts") as slipknottin would.

Oh, and PLEASE don't include me with "that lot"!;)

thom336

02-28-2003, 11:53 AM

hurt is a descriptive word of what it is like to feel pain. im thinking you tried to phrase that so it didnt seem like pain...

im talking with pain, beviking, meaning: cut urself, you get hurt - a feeling of pain.

slipknottin, i am thinking from what you hav put that you hav seen the inside of a fishes brain? or that youve seen diagrams? or, maybe, some1 has just writtin somwhere that the fish do not have that part of the brain? where you coming from with that? whats your source?

if i took out this part of your brain, would you no longer feel pain? if that is correct, then why arent there super humans being created that dont feel pain? and you cant say that that wouldnt b able to happen because we dont know wot part of the brain it is exactly...because u apparently know wot is missin from a fish! or maybe its different in fish of course...in which case how do you know that it is the pain bit that is missin?

ok...now im gonna bring in a quote from a while back written by slipknottin....
"What you believe or dont believe isnt entirely relevant."
are u suggesting to me with this quote that whatever i say ur not gonna accept because it isnt entirely relevent? everything i have said is relevent to the topic of fish pain and euthanasia.

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by thom336

slipknottin, i am thinking from what you hav put that you hav seen the inside of a fishes brain? or that youve seen diagrams? or, maybe, some1 has just writtin somwhere that the fish do not have that part of the brain? where you coming from with that? whats your source?

There are at least 4 links in this thread.

if i took out this part of your brain, would you no longer feel pain? if that is correct, then why arent there super humans being created that dont feel pain? and you cant say that that wouldnt b able to happen because we dont know wot part of the brain it is exactly...because u apparently know wot is missin from a fish! or maybe its different in fish of course...in which case how do you know that it is the pain bit that is missin?

The part of the brain that is used for pain is also used for sensations and emotions. Thats why nobody has had it removed. Many painkillers work by preventing transmission to these parts of the brain. Yet when people are on these drugs, they will still react to stimuli. They just dont feel the pain.

ok...now im gonna bring in a quote from a while back written by slipknottin....
"What you believe or dont believe isnt entirely relevant."
are u suggesting to me with this quote that whatever i say ur not gonna accept because it isnt entirely relevent? everything i have said is relevent to the topic of fish pain and euthanasia.

Opinions dont hold much weight in a factual argument.

thom336

02-28-2003, 12:24 PM

im afraid you havent answered the questions.

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 12:25 PM

What question didnt I answer? :confused:

thom336

02-28-2003, 12:30 PM

slipknottin, i am thinking from what you hav put that you hav seen the inside of a fishes brain? or that youve seen diagrams? or, maybe, some1 has just writtin somwhere that the fish do not have that part of the brain? where you coming from with that? whats your source?

if i took out this part of your brain, would you no longer feel pain? if that is correct, then why arent there super humans being created that dont feel pain? and you cant say that that wouldnt b able to happen because we dont know wot part of the brain it is exactly...because u apparently know wot is missin from a fish! or maybe its different in fish of course...in which case how do you know that it is the pain bit that is missin?

ok...now im gonna bring in a quote from a while back written by slipknottin....
"What you believe or dont believe isnt entirely relevant."
are u suggesting to me with this quote that whatever i say ur not gonna accept because it isnt entirely relevent? everything i have said is relevent to the topic of fish pain and euthanasia.

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 12:31 PM

I answered all that.

thom336

02-28-2003, 12:36 PM

where? you did not directly answer any of the questions, instead tended to creep around them....

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 12:37 PM

I answered them all. Look at my response a little further up the page. I didnt creep around anything.

If there is a certain question I didnt respond to post that again. Im not answering the entire thing again.

thom336

02-28-2003, 12:43 PM

you answered the first with:
"There are at least 4 links in this thread."
- what does that tell me?

you answered the second with:
"They just dont feel the pain."
- erm.....well, again, what does that tell me?

you answered the third with:
"Opinions dont hold much weight in a factual argument."
- i dont remember anyone stating this was a specific "factual" arguement....and there wouldnt b an argument if no1 had their own opinions! so again...wot does that tell me?

slipknottin

02-28-2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by thom336
you answered the first with:
"There are at least 4 links in this thread."
- what does that tell me?

You asked where I had proof of what I was saying. There are at least 4 links to sites in this thread. Here Ill list a few of them.

http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Fur--Hunting/Do%20Fish%20Feel%20Pain.htm
http://www.richardlouv.com/The%20Angler's%20Manifesto.html

you answered the second with:
"They just dont feel the pain."
- erm.....well, again, what does that tell me?

Take it out of context and of course it looks weird. My entire response was "The part of the brain that is used for pain is also used for sensations and emotions. Thats why nobody has had it removed. Many painkillers work by preventing transmission to these parts of the brain. Yet when people are on these drugs, they will still react to stimuli. They just dont feel the pain."