buying used tanks and re-establishing fish

[fishyhead]

Hi everyone.

I've read through the posts here and learned a great deal. I'm a newbie at fishkeeping (its been 15 years since my 30 gallon), with a question about re-establishing fish from a used tank.

I read to buy the largest possible tank, and I have the space and time to devote to a large tank. I'm interested in used tanks b/c i've found what seems like a good deal from a local that is getting out of the hobby. I'm looking at 120 gallon glass tank that includes 39 freshwater fish. The tank has been established for about 1.5 years.

I'm most concerned about keeping the fish alive through the move. Can anyone give me an idea about how best to re-establish this many fish? I guess the difficulty is that I'd be buying the tank and the 39 fish at the same time. I know this is a common newbie mistake, but when you buy them as a used package, that's how they come.

The setup is a 125 gallon with 39 fish: 10 exotic plecos (royal, tiger, honey comb, vampire, clown), 2 large Silver Tip Sharks, 2 Discus, 2 large Lochs, 1 Bumble Bee Cat, 4 large Angels, 6 Blue Garomi’s, 8 Black Shirt Tetra, 3 Painted Glass, 1 large Gold Fish (about 5 inches long). The fish are between 3 months and 1.5 years old. If you need more info on the setup, its also on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2307891892&category=20755

This is a side note, but I'm wondering if anyone give some advice if the previous owner did their research and chose strong, compatible fish? Any ideas on fish that would be least likely to make it through the move? Any other ideas on water care, etc. would also be appreciated.

Lastly, I'm getting back to the major problem and pleading again for advice on how to re-establish the fish. I've read about a fishless cycle, but where would I store the fish for the 10+ days while I'm doing the cycle? If I did a fishy cycle how many can I put in the tank while cycling? I'm concerned about putting all 39 fish in there and having them die on me. I don't want to, but maybe the only way to not kill lots of expensive fish is to trade them in and do a fishless cycle, then buy them back? Or maybe will the store hold my fish while I cycle?

And is cycling always necessary? What if you have lots of filtration and rely on existing bacteria? The tank includes 2 over the back Penguin Emperor filter/heaters. Both are 120-gallon filters. These are top of the line bio filters and it seems way more than enough filtration for the tank -- would it work to just run the tank with these filters instead of doing a cycle, then release the fish out of their bags after filter-cycling overnight? Will the filters take care of all the ammonia spikes? Would it be useful to add neutralizers like amquel? Maybe I'm leaving out the nitrates part of the cycle. If I use the filters and gravel from the established tank (and maybe buy some nitrifying bacteria), can I put all my fish in at once and continue monitoring (and maybe continue fishy cycling) without harming the fish? Would using distilled water help keep the fish stay alive during this whole process?

I'm on the verge of jumping in, and would greatly appreciate all suggestions and advice.

Thanks!

[wetmanNY]

You're really jumping in at the deep end. Take a deep breath first.

The fishes in the list are a mixed menagerie that don't belong together, like a Noah's Ark. The interesting ones are the various Plecos, worth ten to twenty dollars each maybe.

You need to have a cycled temporary home for these fish to receive them, while you set up the permanent one.

You are close enough to the e-bay seller to pick the whole thing up?

[fishyhead]

thanks. I am about 3 hours from the seller.

We just got back from the local store. The guy there suggested that if we save about half the water, the rocks, etc, there should be enough bacteria so that we wouldn't have to do a cycling. He said if we did that it would be just like doing a big water change. It sounds like your suggestion is to get another cycled tank for them to hang in until a full cycle is complete. How small could I go?

I'm interested to hear why those fish don't belong together. Will they fight and kill each other? or do they thrive in different environments? or is it aesthetics or something else?

And the prices you've suggested for those plecos are not consistent with what the seller has told me. They said those plecos go for $45 to $70

[famman]

You could treat it like a tank move.
Buy three 20 gallon rubbermaid containers to hold the fish and the ornaments and gravel etc (seperately). Only keep enough water to keep the fish happy and the gravel wet, throw the rest away.
Put the fish in one rubbermaid with the heater and the filter temporarily, put all the decorations and as much of the gravel you can scoop out easily from the tank into another. Put all filters, hoses, heaters, covers into the other a third.
Load everything.
Drive straight home and put the filter and heater onto the rubbermaid container with the fish.
Assemble the tank with everything add dechlorinator and water.
If you can warm the new water up to the temp the fish like it would go faster.
Add the fish and put the heater in the tank and attach the filter.
Watch your water, while you may experience a mini-cycle it would be short and water changes would manage it well.
Good luck you have a long day ahead of you
:)

[fishyhead]

wow, thanks for the insightful advice.
.
I have another question, if you don't mind.

How dangerous is it to move a 125 gallon glass tank? Its about a 3.5 hour drive.

[famman]

The glass on a 125 is pretty thick and sturdy, what you want to do is avoid torque. I wouldn't move it with much in it, certainly not any water.
A thick excersize mat or a packing mat (buy bubble wrap from u-haul) in a few layers plus some pillows to avoid shifting should be sufficient unless you have bumpy roads.
good luck
:)

[andruboz]

sorry, i have no new advice to give, but the ebay listing has me curious.

when i went to ebay and looked at those filters, i cant figure out what they are. they say they are emperors for 120gl, but i thought the emperor 400 the biggest and was for a 75 or less. they sorta look like 'tetra tecs' but i dont know anything about them. i also dont understand why there isnt a suction pipe going down to the bottom off of those filters, unless he took it off for the photo opportunity.
another puzzle is: how discus could live in the same water with 10 plecos and nothing to hide behind..even with the 2 driftwood pieces in there. [not shown in the picture ]

I wish you luck. and good weather.

[wetmanNY]

There are instructions for starting over in a cycled tank at www.skepticalaquarist.com in the SetUp folder. You sure don't want to put all these fish through a cycle. Especially not those Discus. My technique of scraping off the uppermost surface of the gravel (with all the nitrifiers in it and other aerobic bacteria) and keeping it separate from the anoxic lower layers might seem too persnickety...

Now. how were the Discus doing in the same tank with Goldfish? One are comfortable started about 80o. The other start to be uncomfortable when it gets up to 75o. I don't think these fish have really been living together. What do y'all think?

fishyhead, you've priced out all the elements (except the fish) and you've got a private top bid in mind. Don't go over that bid!

[famman]

Ya know Wetman (and fishyhead too), if you were right, the tank might not even be cycled at all and the whole group assembled just for the sale. I'm not even certain it's even worth the money they are asking now that I've looked at it. Or worse, the tank is suddenly way overstocked and you'll go through a major cycle anyway.
fishyhead, you might oughta do some extra research through ebay just to make sure you know the situation. I'd hate to see you get scammed wanting to dump all their fish on you and maybe they aren't really the exotic species they say or something. at least make plans to sell your extra fish quickly
good luck
:)

[superstein61]

fishyhead - I would not believe the price that seller says those fish would cost. They seem to be exxagerating things on some of them.

While I am not familiar with pricing on all those - for instance the 2 inch clown pleco they say costs $45 - I have purchased that same size for $12.99

Thats just one example - some of the other prices are out of line as well

[fishyhead]

Yes, I would say that this is a great use of the forum. I've forwarded your questions to the seller. I've posted the reply below and would very much appreciate any comments as we will make an offer soon.

Here's the reply:


>
>As far as the fish. We keep the tank at 82 degrees for the sack of the plecos and the discus. All the fish have been in there together pretty much from the beginning most at least a year or more. The goldfish was a feeder fish for our saltwater lion fish. But when we got rid of the lionfish the goldfish was left in our tank and it grew really big. It was not a fish I originally wanted in there but there is only one and it is very happy. It has been in the tank about 8 months now. The Discus live just fine. The driftwood has actually been out of the tank for about 5 months now so there is really nothing in the tank it is as you see in the picture. My husband was tired of the fish hiding so he took out the driftwood. But all of the fish have been fine. The 2 discus school together for the most part but they are healthy and happy. The plecos are all very healthy. They all hide in their own spots mostly close to the gravel at the bottom.


The filters are tetratec PF500 which is for a 100 gallon not 125 gallon. Sorry my mistake. I will change that on the listing. These filters have a heater you can buy that go inside the filter instead of having to have a separate heater. We really like them and have had no problems with them to date. Ours does have a pipe that goes off the bottom of the filter whish is were the water is sucked into the filter. Each filter has their own biological sponge chamber which creates the biological filtration system. We purchased these filters from Petsmart when they first came out for around $120 each and the heaters were around $40.00 each. We have really liked them and they seem to do a good job.

[tyler]

if these fish don't have a place to hide, i'd imagine they're pretty stressed.

does anybody know how much a 150 would cost new?

[ThirdEyE]

around here they're a little over 300, so $300-400 which possibly includes covers.

i like how he says $936 in fish alone, subtract the cost of what's in there now and you got the total of all the fish he's killed in that tank before he took that picture.

i wouldn't buy it

[fishyhead]

We offered them $750 for the ebay tank and they wouldn't take it. So we went to our local guy and bought a 135 gal for $375. All the other stuff -- decent biofilters, heaters, gravel, lights, powerheads, logs, plants, and lights will be about another $300. He's delivering it, and will provide water and bacteria while coaching me through the cycle. We'll buy fish slowly . . .

[famman]

Kudos on doing your research!

good luck
:)

[FishmasteR2002]

Those are Tetratec 500s. I have a 300 and a 150 and I like them but they are quite noisy. The system they use for Bio filtration is a "tidal pool" effect and the filter makes this sucking sound every 3 seconds or so. I wouldn't get it if you have to drive 3 hours to get it. Look around in your local classified section and see what you can find. Good Luck.