Newbie, Lots of questions....

[Woozledad]

Hello all....I'm glad I found AC...

Here's what I have....

29 gallon
100w cheap heater
fluro light that came with tank-on for 6-8 hrs a day
couple of plastic plants
fake rock cave and fake driftwood
2"-3" epoxy coated gravel
Penguin 125 and AquaClear 200 (running both, see questions)
1-Albino Cory Cat
1-pair of Guppies
1-Painted Swordtail
Tank has been set up for 12 days....

Water specs as of today...
Ammonia .5 - 1 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
Ph 8.2
Kh 196ppm
Gh 250ppm

I set the tank up with Stress Coat and Amquel and added 1/2 tsp of tablesalt per gallon of water....waited 24 hours to add fish, which have been doing very well..The Guppies looked a little stressed for about 24hrs the day after putting them in, but now seem fine. I have done one 3 gallon water change so far and added Biozyme for the first 7 days.

Originally I started the tank off with the Penguin 125, the tank has never seemed really clear and I'm not really crazy about the constant water trickling sound....So, today I purchased the AC200 after hearing good things about it on this board. It isn't nearly as noisey...when houseguest stay over they sleep in the same room as the tank, so noise is a concern...

First Question....since the bio-wheel has been in the tank for almost two weeks now, I just added the AC200. I was afraid of taking out the bio-wheel, what would that do to the tank?? I was thinking it would be best to run them both for a few days, so the new filter could start some bacteria growth before removing the bio-wheel...I'm I right in my thinking, or is this too much water movement???

I'm also planning to add live plants to the tank...the LFS said I shouldn't do it until the tank has been set up for at least a month..from what I read here, it sounds like I should add a couple of plants right from the start...which is best??? I think java ferns would be about the best to start with, but I haven't seen them locally, so I guess I will have to order online....whats the best place to order from???


Hopefully, in the next few weeks I will be getting a much larger tank....My wife's boss is giving it too us, but she can't remember what size it is, she said it was "big" so I'm assuming it's at least 55gl or larger...she just had major surgery so she isn't up to messing with it just yet, but hopefully soon. What could I be doing know to get ready for the larger tank?? Is there something I could be growing bacteria on now and be able to add to the new tank, or is it best to just start from scratch?? I will probably do a fishless cycle with the new tank....


Thanks in advance for all advice....I look forward to getting to know everyone....

Michael

[carpguy]

Welcome to AqC, we're glad you found us too :D

I haven't used salt so I'm not 100% sure about the dosages, but yours seems a little high. I think 1 tspn/5 gal is more along the lines of what some folks use on freshwater. I don't think the Corys particularly care for it. It'll help with nitrIte toxicity during the cycle, but I'd personally want to find a reason to stay with it after that. I try to change 5 to 10 gallons weekly on my 30g. Especially during the Cycle (especially with your pH), water changes are important. Ammonia is more toxic at higher pHs, so you'll want to take care to keep levels in check. Water changes will not slow the cycle. Most of the folks I trust around here are very skeptical about the usefulness of Bacteria-in-a-bottle type products. Your mileage may vary.

Yes, running them together for a bit will help keep the cycling moving ahead while the new filter gets caught up. The water movement shouldn't be too excessive. If you feel like its a little too high I know you can turn the flow down on the AC, assume you can on the Penguin.

There is a variation on cycling that involves planting before the fish go in. I can't think of why waiting a month would be a good idea, except to give you a chance to do some reading. Java moss/ferns as well as crypts are all good at low light. For good plant growth you'll more than likely need to boost your lighting significantly. Plants are there own fairly involved subject and you'll also want to read up on ferts and CO2 before you decide to get too involved with them. I love having a planted tank but it is definitely more involved.

If you want, you can start a fishless cycle in a bucket. LucaBrazzi has a thread somewhere on cycling in a tub (try the Search function). If you're sure you want to go planted you might want to think about going with a canister filter.

There have been numerous posts about people losing whole tanks to heater malfunctions. I'd avoid cheapies. I have a VisiTherm. EboJagers seem to be well-regarded, and I think Tronics are as well.

If you're unhappy with the local plant selection you could try AquaBotanic.com, FloridaDriftwood.com or AzGardens.com. There are others as well (I think there was a recent thread on this in Plants). Most involve a minimum order (somewhere around $25-$35).

Good luck! :D

[pinballqueen]

Okay... you've got lots of good questions.

1. Leave both filters on the tank until you have cycled the tank. Two reasons: one, it will keep you from having to start completely over from losing a great deal of bacteria (keep in mind that this will probably happen no matter when you remove the extra filter, but it's better to wait until there is a little more established colony in the rest of the tank decoration...). Two, it will give you something to help "seed" the bigger tank.

2. Don't add plants right now. They will suck all the ammonia out of the water faster than the bacteria will. They will slow down your cycle, so wait until you are done cycling. The only other alternative would be to add LOTS of plants, stuffing the bugger full of them, but I don't think I'd do that. A fish-only fishy cycle is the easiest way to go. I have no clue where you can get plants, so I'm not the one to answer that part. I'm sure there's lots of folks who can advise you on that.

3. The big tank... ah. Now we're talking. First off, that extra filter can be used for the seeding process (jump-starting your bacteria). Also, a piece of sponge filter material, or a few big rocks in the little tank can be good seed material. The more you start off with, the quicker things will happen for you. Beware, if you add all that stuff to your little tank, it will take it slightly longer to cycle, and may experience a mini-cycle if you take too much out at once. Just move one item every few days from the established tank to the new one, rather than dumping everything over at one time. Handfuls of gravel from the little tank will help speed things along on the big one, too.

On a side note, just thought I'd point out that cories are schooling fish. They like to be in at least a group of 3 or 4 individuals.... they do okay by themselves, but they're happier with company.

[carpguy]

Originally posted by pinballqueen
2. Don't add plants right now. They will suck all the ammonia out of the water faster than the bacteria will. They will slow down your cycle, so wait until you are done cycling.

The plants are going to compete for ammonia no matter when you add them, and the bacteria are going to adjust to that competition at that point. Not sure why the when might make a difference. I think the plants would, if anything, help keep the ammonia levels down to a level tolerable to the fish.

Here's a good faq (http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html) on fishy cycling. Ammonia is always bad for fish. Under certain conditions it can be not quite as bad: Temperature and pH effect its toxicity. Under the section "How Much Ammonia is Too Much" they give a little chart of crisis levels. With a pH of 8.2, Ammonia at .5-1 ppm is past their recommended crisis point for any temp. Water changes will help keep the levels dilute. Plants may also help do this, although they will need some time to get established. So long as there is any detectable ammonia, there is too much for the bacteria. Until they can eat up all the Ammonia as fast as the fish can produce it, with or without help, they'll continue to grow.

edit:
that said, plants are complicated. A couple of low light plants in borderline conditions aren't going to a whole lot of anything. I'd wait on the plants until you've had a chance to read up on whats involved in keeping them. Until then, water changes and more water changes.

[Faramir]

I'm a great believer in cycling tanks with plants, but this water is seriously hard and alkaline, and most plants are going to be hard put to survive and prosper there. They might therefore not do too well. That KH is seriously high - I make it c. 11 deg.

Having said that, java fern, vallis and amazon swords might make it.

Incidently, the cory will be really unsettled on his own. Once you've got the tank cycled he'll need some companions.

[NJ Devils Fan]

Honestly, I would keep both filters on for more filtration. It would have been better if you got an AC 300. As for noise, make sure that the water it not low because it will mkae more noise the lower the water level is.

[Woozledad]

I forgot to add that I keep my water at 80 deg... I'm glad you mentioned the heater, Carpguy, I had a question about that...I knew it was bad to buy cheap, but I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted, so I figured buy cheap now then I'm not throwing as much money away....

I've seen the debate about using two heaters incase one "sticks"...it's not likely to over heat the tank so quickly...I figure it can't hurt...what should I buy? 2-50w heaters??? are the submersable kind the best???

I will probably still wait until the cycle is complete before adding the plants...I've waited this long, whats a few more weeks :( I will probably go with the DIY type CO2 system that my lfs sells for like $25... seems like people have had good luck with that set-up. I've done quite a bit of reading already, but plan on doing some more....The new tank will most likely have natural stone mixed with flourite..

SALT...ask 10 people, get 10 different answers and 20 different amounts...They've done fine with the current set up...but I think with water changes I will cut back just a tad...

My poor cory cat....yes, I know he needs some buddies...In a few weeks we'll get him about 3 friends...I enjoy watching him/her...I know for sure that I will add a couple more Swordtails and at least one more pair of guppies...So far the swordtail seems to be the most interesting, she never stops..... What are some other good options that would be colorful and would coexist with my others and the brackish like water????

Water Changes....how is the best way....I fill three one gallon jugs with tap water and conditioner, then let it sit for about 24hrs before adding it to the tank.....I once read that if you let the tap water sit for 24-48hrs the chlorine would disipate and conditioner wouldn't be needed....we I'm not that trusting, so I add conditioner.....Am I accomplishing anything or just wasting my time???

[OrionGirl]

Look into the needs of the fish. Cories come from waters with low TDs and no salt. So do swords. Mollies live in waters that frequently contain salt. No pushing, but research the fish you have, and see if it makes sense to add salt. You're not creating brackish water with these salt additions, you're just creating less than 'fresh' water.

As for the chlorine, it will dissipate on it's own, given time and surface area. Jugs aren't the best for this, since they have such a small opening for gas exchange. A large bucket, or adding something for water movement (like a bubbler) will help. However--only trust this if you know that your water company doesn't use chloramines. Very different beast, won't dissipate like chlorine, but is just as toxic to fish. Your utility company should be able to tell you which they use so you can treat appropriately.

[val]

to Aquaria Central, WoozleDad, home of the most newbie fishkeepers on the Internet:)

You've got a lot of good answers, thus far, so I'll just comment on the heater issue. Buy a good heater, I strongly recommend Ebo Jagers, but I do have a 10g with a Tronic on it. I come down on the one-heater one-tank side of the debate, especially with a smaller tank, and I'd consider 55g and below to be a small tank. Rather than spend the money on two heaters, get one and get a digital thermometer (I understand Radio Shack has one that has a water-proof probe that costs under $10, but I use the Little Time and Temp that I got for $15). Your heater should be able to keep the temp within a tenth of degree. If you are getting more fluctuation than that, get a new heater.

As for the reasoning for two heaters, I don't buy it. It seems to come out of the fear that one will overheat and the second will turn off since the water is getting too warm. Since you have two heaters, you'd theoretically have smaller ones and the one that is overheating wouldn't be able to heat the tank by itself. Also, some seem to think that the heaters will be more efficient if they are operating at less than full requirement. Well, that is true of heat pumps, but most mechanical devices work just as well across a range of environments. Besides, two heaters just means two cables that you have to hide and, if you are pessimistic and expect your heater to fail, you've got twice the chances for failure. Oh, and yes, I do think that submersible heaters are better, just because you can hide them. Plus, the better manufacturers are making them submersible. If you buy a Tronic or Ebo or Visi-therm, even if you see a "water line marking", rest assured, they are submersible.

HTH

Val

[Woozledad]

No pushing, but research the fish you have, and see if it makes sense to add salt. You're not creating brackish water with these salt additions, you're just creating less than 'fresh' water.
OK, I guess I wasn't clear enough, in NO way am I trying to make brackish water by adding salt....I simply mention "brackish like" waters due to the akalinity and hardness of my water.... I add salt because I have read on several websites that salt benefits the fish.... Here is one of the places I have read about it... Petfish (http://www.petfish.net/tsalt.htm)...My fish seem to be doing very well. IMO they look much better than the fish I see in the LFS.... The cories and the swordtail have actually done much better than the guppies, they guppies are the only one who have ever even looked stressed....Maybe your right and tomorrow I will wake up to a tank full of dead fish....

Your right, I do need to do more research on the fish I have....The fish I currently have where recommended by the LFS because they would do well in my water conditions....and are hardy enough to survive the cycling...I have learned not to trust what they say but these fish have done very well so far...

Thanks for the heater advice Val...I plan on changing that in the next few days.....

Michael

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Woozledad
.....I will probably still wait until the cycle is complete before adding the plants...I've waited this long, whats a few more weeks :( I will probably go with the DIY type CO2 system.....I think it's a good idea to wait.. But, it's known, and a very good idea to plant heavily to avoid a dreaded algae outbreak. 80% or so, of plants is good. I'm not sure about your lighting... Someone may be better at suggestions there. Get some ferts for the plants. I like Kents products like Flourish, the Iron, Potassium.. ..aslo, I use AP Root Tabs placed under the plants. :)