DIY CO2 or something cheap?

[StevieM]

hello all,
not sure if this belongs in the plant section but its more of a question of some newer products than anything. I have a 20 gal that I am thinking of putting some kind of CO2 fert. on. I would like to see my plants a bit more lush and I would like something that looks a little more professional than a DIY Co2 setup. I wondered if anyone had experience with the Hagen Plant Gro Co2 Natural system (21.99) or something I saw at Big Als just now called the Carbo Plus CO2 system ( 119.99) which I guess does not need any fermentation or pressurized cylinders. It says you only have to replace the carbon block when it "tells you to" which at 34.99 a block can obviously get pricey...if it even works. On the other hand the Hagen Plant Gro system claims to work on tanks up to 20 gal. and could be an alternative for me as I can't see sinking in excess of 300 into a pressurized setup for a 20 gallon tank...maybe down the line when I get my 90 gal :D Any opinions on the subject are more than welcome!

steve

[OrionGirl]

There are several threads on the Hagen product in Plants. It's a decent product, nothing more than what you could DIY fairly easily.

I'm going to move this thread over to Plants, and you might want to search there for more.

[RTR]

There is also a big question of up-front cost versus long-term costs. Almost all the costs of pressurized gas CO2 is up-front. Operating costs are tiny.

The Carbo-Plus is not cheap, but handy. Up-front and operating costs are high. For a office tank where prssurized gas would not be allowed, I pay the higher costs of this unit.

DIY is cheap up-front, operation costs are heavier than pressurized, but much cheaper than Carbo-Plus.

Commercial DIY is a bit more up-front, can be operated DIY or with commercial replacement material. Convenience and personal choice.

[Richer]

RTR brings up a few really good points in terms of operating costs.

Personally, if you are thinking about having another planted tank, or even upgrading your tank in the future to something larger, I would go with a pressurized system. It is quite easy to branch off your main CO2 line, and add another needle valve for another tank. If your upgrading to a larger tank, just turn up the CO2. Pressurized systems shouldn't cost 300 bucks... I built mine from scratch for less than 200 bucks canadian, I don't see how it can cost 300 USD (assuming its in US since you're from NY).
What you need in a pressurized system is:
1 double guage regulator
1 needle valve (get as a precise one as you can afford.) aka. metering valve.
1 CO2 tank. These can either be bought, or rented out. Check out welding shops and such for prices. A 5 pound tank will do quite nicely
X feet of silicon tubing. Don't use the plastic air tubing, that stuff will degrade quite quickly under CO2 usage. CO2 resistant tubing is ideal if you can find it.
1 reactor of some sort.

Optional:
1 Solenoid. Hook this up to your light timer. When the lights turn on, the valve opens, when the lights turn off, the valve closes. It effectively doubles the lifespan of your CO2 tank.
1 bubble counter. It allows you to easily see how much CO2 is going into your tank. Not needed though, as pH, KH and this table (http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml) can tell you much more precisely how much CO2 you have in your tank.
1 check valve. Also not needed, as needle valves themselves act as a check valve. However, it doesn't hurt to have one.

Hope I didn't forget anything. If you have any more questions, just ask away =)

-Richer

[Slappy*McFish]

just keep in mind...larger tanks(75g+) use pressurized co2, smaller tanks will do just fine with DIY and cost shouldn't be any more than $2-3 a month to maintain a DIY system. One 5lb bag of sugar and a jar of breadmaker's yeast will last me 4-5 months for a 10g and a 55g...very cheap. I'm not about to pay more than I have to just to "look" more professional. Now if I had a jumbo sized plant tank(over 100g), I would definetly opt for a pressurized system, as it is very difficult to produce sufficient co2 using DIY on these tanks...and the cost of DIY would be a bit more as well.

[plantbrain]

Clippard needle valve: 11$
Regulator www.kegworks.com = 52$
Adapter for needle valve- 1$
CO2 diffuser/reactor- DIY etc-10-20$
Gas tank- 40-100$

About 150$ is the average for a gas system and it'll last you decades.
The other thing you vcan do with the gas system is brach off the gas line and run multiple tanks with CO2 enrichment. Add a "T" to the regulator(cost about 1$ and add another needle valve for 11$ and you have yourself a complelety independent CO2 system for another tank.

Gas tanks like a 10lb tank run about 8-14$ a refill and would last about 5 years on a 20 gallon tank at least.

5 years of DIY at 1-2$ a month= 60$-120$ not including all the labor and hassle of changing the DIY bottles.

And you will perhaps fiddle with the flow rate about 10 seconds every 3-6 months. The CO2 becomes as easy to deal with as the lights on a timer.

There are two basic decent choices: DIY CO2 or Gas tank. Certain circumstance might make Carbo plus/Hagen's dewhicky a bit more to your liking.
If you plan on having just a 20 gallon etc, DIY is a good route. If you have the urge to spend more, get the gas.

No one has ever regretted getting a gas system that I am aware of.
Please let me know if you find someone that is unhappy with theirs. I know plenty of folks that will gladly buy it from them:)
I think that says it all right there.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Slappy*McFish]

not including all the labor and hassle of changing the DIY bottles.

lol...I find myself winded and worn out after the tedious and strenuous 5 min task. One could possibly compare it to working in the coal mines of old.;)

[RTR]

Hey Tom, my pressurized system is in storage... but it is not for sale. Someday I might just go high light/pressurized gas again, but since I got over that phase I don't use it. :p

[plantbrain]

5 minutes x one year's time= 26x5= couple hours plus.
Now, it's fine if it's a a tank or two of smaller 20 gallons etc.
Try it with 2 -55 gal's, 2- 20's, a 90 gallon, and a 75 gal.
It's a pain then.

Me? About 30 seconds.
My CO2 levels? They are stable all the time and do not vary. I did DIy for 10 years. I think that is enough.
I have done gas for about the same amount of time.

Given everything, I wish I'd spent the $ on the gas to start with.
It's just much easier and worth while to do it that way. I've been on both sides of the fence here. You/I can do it with DIY but it's much easier to keep things in good shape using the gas.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Slappy*McFish]

I'm just bustin your chops Tom:cool:

[Wulfy]

I got the Carbo+ unit.

I was going to get the full Duplo CO2 kit but Carbo+
is cheaper and what really sold me on it
was the size of it.

I was VERY unhappy with the price of the replacement
Carbon blocks. But the price has dropped and you can
get them now for U$20.

Now they are meant to last 2 Weeks on FULL blast
for a 240L Aquarium (44G) (which is the max the unit
can be used on.
However, you can DOUBLE this to 4 weeks because
you only need it during your light cycle when your
plants actually need it.

I am running it at 20% in 80L (17G) Aquarium.
According to my calculations I should be able
to run it for about 4 months or so for U$20.

When I get a larger tank 88G or so, I will get CO2.
But I wont buy DUPLA who are owned by Israeli company
now called RED SEA. Im sorry but I dont support with my money regimes who ignore over 30 UN resolutions
and have weapons of mass destruction.

[plantbrain]

All the pictures on the www.sfbaaps page of my tanks are DIY CO2. I think I can do that pretty well and can do very well with the gas systems also.
Cleaning algae when that DIY recharge is forgotten and you spend a good deal of time digging algae from the tank.

Everyone forgets at some point to do the DIY recharge and it often results in an algae issue.

Then gas CO2 seems pretty nice.
DIY'er are the most common and highest % of folks with algae issues. That says something right there.

But let's look at this person's goals here which was what the post is about. They are looking for something better than a DIY set up. A gas system is the next step up.

How much for gas system RTR?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[StevieM]

Roughly 150.00 is not bad to piece together a pressurized system and I like the fact that the costs down the line are going to balance things out. I guess one other question I have with regards to the CO2, am I going to need an increase in light and supplements to accompany this? With the current tank setup I have ( Eclipse 2) there really isn't an option of adding additional light. Granted, it would be good as I go forward pending a larger tank with plants in the future. Another thing that scares me is algae issues with DIY. My tank/s is fairly pristine right now with the rare minor spots of algae. The plants don't look super lush like like magazine quality, but they are growing fairly steady at a rate I can keep up with. Am I answering my own questions here?;) Maybe I shouldn' t try and fix it if it isn't really broke huh? If I do go large ( 72 gal + ) I know the route I will take should I have plants. Thanks for all your help everyone, I really value your opinions!

steve

[Richer]

When you inject CO2, you don't have to increase lighting. In that case, lighting will be your limiting growth factor. CO2 is just there to help your plants to grow better.

HTH
-Richer

[plantbrain]

S-
If you plan on a larger tank and going for it, then the gas set up will please you. If you stick with what you have now, that's fine for the 20 gal. If you have one 20 gal tank and it's doing okay, I'd not mess with it.

If you add more CO2 to the 20 later it'll help the tank generally. You might need to do a weekly 40-50% water change and dose some macro nutrients back in afterwards, but the effect of this will greatly enhance the tank and growth even if you do NOT increase the lighting.

Your tank will be limited as it should be, by the amount of light. You can add more light if you wish say up to 2-3w/gal range but that's plenty to grow any plant. You'll need to daose 2-3x a week then and if you have less than 2w/gal once a week after the water change works pretty good.
For a 20 gallon after a water change:

KNO3 1/4 teaspoon
K2SO4 1/4 teaspoon
Traces 5mls
KH2PO4 a couple of rice grain's worth.

If you add more light(2w/gal or above), add this same amount 2x a week instead of once. You don't need to add the K2SO4 the second time, just once a week
Plant heavy.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[StevieM]

Thanks...excellent information!! It's great to get "real world" experience from people here , to eliminate trial and error. I will see how things go over the next couple months and if I have any further questions I will no doubt come back here for some help. Muchas Gracias...

steve

[plantbrain]

Well, you still need the experience.
Even the best informed/on the ball new person has their ups and downs.

Richer-
No you do not have to increase light at all. Even at low light, the benefits of CO2/carbon source enrichment are very great.

I firmly believe folks do much better at 2 w/gal with CO2 vs 3-4w/gal with CO2.

You have much better results and less critical error. Less dosing etc and the plants look good as well. It also means slower growth and less pruning etc.

So for folks that assume incorrectly that CO2 automatically means lots of mainteance, well..........you are mistaken greatly.

Plant choice alone plays a large role there. CO2 improves plant _health_, which is somewhat different than plant _growth_. I don't want Crappy fast growth but do desire slower healthy growth.

For more info, I have some threads floating around on low light + CO2 enrichment. Claus from tropiuca found similar result independently and did a more thorough job and has a nice write on their site about CO2.

I did not clean my glass on a 55 gallon tanks with 80 watts 4 inches of flourite etc, CO2 20-30ppm, regular dosing once weekly(NPK, traces) 50% weekly water change, for over 6 months, not any algae ever.
Did not need to prune much etc. I spent about 1/2 hour a week on it. Plants looked wonderful.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Slappy*McFish]

I did not clean my glass on a 55 gallon tanks with 80 watts 4 inches of flourite etc, CO2 20-30ppm, regular dosing once weekly(NPK, traces) 50% weekly water change, for over 6 months, not any algae ever.

Sounds alot like my setup....but I think my jumbo sized driftwood and fish-load create quite a bio-load.

What was the fish-load in your tank?

[Richer]

Plaintbrain - perhaps you misread my post, I did infact say you do not need to increase lighting to benefit from CO2. I have a low light tank running on CO2 as well =)

-Richer

[plantbrain]

Yep, my bad.
We all on the same page then.

S- high fish load, 50 shrimps, 30 Card's , 30 Rummy's, 7 cories, some ottos.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Slappy*McFish]

50 shrimps?..amanos?...holy hell, they're almost $4 a pop at my lfs...how much did you pay for yours?

[plantbrain]

60 cent each. Need to buy a wholesale lot (100 most often).
LFS simply goes gets it, and hands you the bag after they get their fish delivery in. The bag never makes it to their tanks.
So 60-80$ will get you and a maybe several tanks or friends all the algae eaters you need. Just bought some not too long ago for the tanks I have now.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[nvision]

hmm, if i haven't chimed in too late, you may want to check out this article,

http://www.dlink.org/aqua/CO2.html

i think it's a great write up. for under $150 you can have a pressurized setup running. i know it still costs more than diy, but definately one of the cheapest route for this type of system. imho.

[djlen]

nvision, thank you very much for the link to the article on a complete CO2 system. This is going to save me much time and aggravation.
Len