Algae + rising PH is giving me the downers

[superjohnny]

Hey guys,
I recently planted my 45 gallon and I'm having some gnarly algae. I planned to put my 2 SAE's in for cleanup duty, but the pH of the tank has been upwards of 8.0 and they're used to the nice 6.8 of the tank they're currently in. Last night I set up my DIY CO2 so I should start getting bubbles tonight or tomorrow. I'm hoping that will bring the pH out of it's current low-earth orbit.

I'm in Portland, Or and I've been told by the LFS that the KH of the tap water is pretty low so I don't know how effective the DIY CO2 is going to be. I badly need to get my hands on a kit to test the water... off to Big Als. In the mean time any thoughts as to what I should do? I hate to use that pH UP/Down stuff, but I need to get those algae eaters to work cause there is a steadily growing green slime building.

Do water changes help? Thanks amigos :)

[BluEyes]

Low KH will make your CO2 MORE effective at lowering the pH, not LESS. The higher the kH, the greater the resistance to pH change.
In fact, it could be your lack of CO2, combined with low KH that is causing the pH rise. Without enough CO2, the plants break down the carbonates in the water to generate CO2 for themselves. The leftovers of this process cause the pH to rise. It also means the plants are working harder to live, which gives the algae a bit of an advantage.
Adding the CO2 (and manually removing as much algae as you can) will give the plants the advantage, and hopefully lower the pH again.

Oh, don't even touch the pH up/down stuff - total waste of time and money. Do some water changes, and keep injecting that CO2!

[superjohnny]

Glad I bought that Python :) I'll start daily 30-40% water-changes and hopefully my first attempt at DIY CO2 will be successful.

I'm kinda wondering if I did it right... I put 3/4 cup of sugar in a bowl and added 2 cups of water and mixed it up. Once dissolved I added 1 tbsp of yeast. Says "Baking yeast" and had the most generic bottle I could find (no preservatives and such). mixed it all together and put it in a modified 2ltr bottle. I've been shaking it up now and again. I'll probably need to replace the tubing as it was just some old air-tubing I had laying around.

BTW I'd forgotten how much I liked Sunkist soda ;) Orange soda = teh W1nn4R!!1 :D

Thanks for your help BlueEyes.

[BluEyes]

whoah, where'd you get that recipie!
What I've always read (and done) is to add 1-2 cups of sugar, 1/2 - 1 tsp or so yeast (not TBSP!) and fill the bottle up to where it starts necking down. Then shake, and connect to the tank...
No need to pre-mix, shaking the bottle does well enough.

I think you've got too much yeast for your sugar, and not enough water. What will probably happen is that the yeast will eat up the sugar really fast, and their waste (alcohol) will build up very fast due to less water volume and kill off the culture.
I think from where you are, add 1 cup sugar, and fill the bottle up to where it narrows down. That should get things going better for now.

[superjohnny]

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/co2-narten.html

oops, I meant to say teaspoon, not table spoon. I filled the 2ltr bottle about 3-4" from top with water after mixing the sugar/water/yeast.

So what is the trade-off between more/less sugar? Would having less sugar mean less CO2 output? How do they correlate?

[wetmanNY]

Tell us about your gravel. Tell us about the phosphates.

[superjohnny]

I'm using 15lbs of red flourite and 30lbs of small river gravel. I rinsed it a TON before I put it in my tank, but still had a cloudy tank for 5-6 days. After that died down I deep vaccuumed my tank with 40% wc every other day for about a week. When I added water back it was from my 30gallon to get a nice bacteria load going.

I'm going to try daily water changes to keep the algae at bay. If the CO2 doesn't bring my pH to within reasonable levels soon I don't know what I'll do.

[wetmanNY]

Depends on the river, but I'd check the gravel with a little muriatic acid to see if bubbles form. (Vinegar is too weak to work.)

Powerful photosynthesis, like green water in full sunlight, could boost your pH in a daily rhythm, with the highest pH at the end of the photoperiod. But I still suspect carbonates in the "river gravel."

[Starry]

I'd recommend the Jello-O recipe instead - it lasts longer. I went up 2 flights of stairs and back down to get this for you, so you have to use it now.

2 packs of jell-o (any flavour - all that's gonna go into your tank is the CO2 either way)
2 cups boiling water
Mix really well until it's all dissolved.
Then add 1.5-2 cups sugar and mix well again (more sugar=lasts longer)
Then add 2 cups cold water and mix AGAIN

Now stick it in the fridge overnight, until it actually turns to Jell-O. Make sure the sugar was dissolved and it's not all collected at the bottom.

Then, add one cup room temp/lukewarm water and 1/4 - 1/2 tsp yeast. More yeast=more CO2.
Also add a pinch of baking soda. I can't remember what this is for.

So there ya go. It's good cause it lasts longer and more steady. The conventional way, you get a surge of CO2 and it tapers off quickly. But this one's genius.

[superjohnny]

Hmmmm, but I bought it at a the LFS. I'll try to get my hands on some muratic acid (see if they sell a 10oz at a time ;))

Until then I have another little issue. The 2ltr bottle leaks air :rolleyes: I thought it was the seal, but it leaks around where the cap connects to the bottle. I temp-fixed it with some electrical tape (as if it isn't ghetto enough already), but it still leaks a little bit.

Question: the air line from the bottle into the tank has an air-stone on the end. How deep in the tank can I put the air stone? It's a 24" deep tank so the 2ltr bottle won't produce enough pressure to have the stone pushed in the substrate. For those who are using the DIY CO2 method... how deep into the tank does your air line go?

Thanks for all the help... I couldn't do it without all the help :)

[superjohnny]

Starry your help is much appreciated. I'll do it!

[Starry]

>>>>>Until then I have another little issue. The 2ltr bottle leaks air :rolleyes: I thought it was the seal, but it leaks around where the cap connects to the bottle. I temp-fixed it with some electrical tape (as if it isn't ghetto enough already), but it still leaks a little bit.

Solution - use a different bottle. Mine never leaked, maybe it's fluke.

>>>>Question: the air line from the bottle into the tank has an air-stone on the end. How deep in the tank can I put the air stone? It's a 24" deep tank so the 2ltr bottle won't produce enough pressure to have the stone pushed in the substrate. For those who are using the DIY CO2 method... how deep into the tank does your air line go?

It should go all the way to the bottom. That way the CO2 has more time to dissolve before it reaches the top and escapes. A tip - you're not gonna get a lot of CO2 to dissolve this way. I know cause I have the same problem. So add lots of yeast. If it's not enough, you can always open the bottle and pop in some more.

You're gonna love the results.

[superjohnny]

So my CO2 has been up and running for about four days now and my PH continues to drop. I do water changes about 30-40% every three days and that helps, but the PH is 6.2 or lower... my kit doesn't read lower range than that.

I suspect the issue is my low KH, but I won't be able to test that till sometime next week when BigAls delivers my stuff. It's been over a week :rolleyes:

If my hunch is correct how will I raise my KH safely?

Thanks guys, you the frustration away and make it all worth doing :)

[djlen]

Superjohnny, you can use either baking soda or crushed coral to help stabilize your water. Go to your LFS and ask them if they have a small quantity of crushed coral laying around. Usually, if a LFS has salt water fish they have some coral from the substrate laying around. I say this only because it's hard to find crushed coral in a small quantity, so I asked and they gave me more than I needed for free. Pick up one of those small nylon bags that you can put into your filter and put about 1tbsp. full in the bag and put it into your filter. Or you can set it right into the tank in a back corner right in the tank.
I have a kH of 2.5 and never had any serious problem with a big pH drop. I did use the coral for while though til I was satisfied that my pH wasn't going to crash on me. If you need more buffering, you can always add more coral to the bag. Adjust as needed. It's more permanent solution than baking soda IMO.
Len

[superjohnny]

Actually my LFS sells pre-packaged crushed coral :rolleyes: What haven't they thought of selling? I guess since pOrtland has soft water they get these questions all the time. They even had a pre-printed instruction set!

Ok back to my issue...
I have been adding Sodium Bicarbonate to my tank 1/4 tsp at a time and the pH has gone up to 6.6. I'm going to do a water change tonight and add another 1/4 tsp and hopefully it will be around 6.8.

My water gets a green hue after about 24 hours. I'm a bit worried about adding my SAE's (the Marines as I like to call them ;))

My plants are really growing nicely. I have one that grows about 3-4 inches per day. You can **** near watch it grow. Kinda freaky really :D "Feed me Semour!"