Complete die off w / bio-spira

[SciFiFan42]

Hi Everyone,

I have a very big problem with my newly established 40 gal. tank.

I used biospira to cycle it, and added a full load of fish. I believe that my first problem was with the batch of biospira I bought. It must have been ineffective or expired, because my nitrites were pretty high for the first four days or so. However, the fish I had at the time (6 platys, 6 lemon tetras, 6 white skirt tetras, 2 rams, and 2 plecos) were doing just fine, showing no signs of stress. The nitrites didn't decrease, so I added a bit of Prime (following the directions) to the water in an attempt to help. Still no change in levels (nitrates rose as expected, though, making me believe some bacteria - action was at work). The fish were still doing fine about 7 days in.

The problem came when I noticed ich on my white skirts on day 8 -- the other fish weren't affected. I stupidly let the problem wait two more days -- day 10 of the "running" aquarium, at which point the white skirts were heavily infected, and the others were just starting to show some signs. I began treating with Kordon's Rid Ich, and that's when things went downhill.

FYI -- Before treatment, I noticed my nitrites had dropped to nearly 0 again, with "safe" nitrate levels, so that was good. Ph has always been steady at about 7.2. Moderate water hardness levels (not too hard, not too soft).

Two days into treatment (the recommended dosage of 1 tsp per 10 gallons, for a total of 4 per 40 gallons), I had lost about 1/4 of the fish, including the Rams, one pleco, several white skirts and several platys. The lemon tetras remained unaffected by either ich or any signs of stress. Today is day 5 of the treatment (day 15 total of a running aquarium), and I've lost the majority of my fish -- one pleco, two platys, 3 white skirts, and the lemon tetras are all that remain. The lemon tetras are now showing signs of ich. It's as if the treatment didn't help at all. Further, the dead fish seemed to have "disintegrated" at the time of their death -- their fins were frayed, their scales flaking, etc.

My question is, could the stress of poorly functioning biospira, along with apparently bad Rid-Ich, have caused this massive die off? The aquarium is also host to a fully complement of live plants, all of which are doing just fine, growing well, etc. The temp. is a steadly 78 degrees, the lighting is provided by a compact florescent light which is kept on for about 12 hours a day. I'm using an Enheim 2233 canister filter, rated for up to 60 gallons. The only problem I've noticed with it is that the flow seems awful strong, creating a strong current. Could this have contributed as well?

Any help with this situation would be greatly appreciated. I think, at this point, the remaining fish will be dead within a few days. Is there any way to save the plants in the tank, while "disinfecting it" for reuse and restocking? I will purchase my biospira from another source this time, to ensure that I get a "good" batch and would like to try again. If I raise the temperature to 83 degrees and leave it that way for a few days (a week?) would that be sufficient to kill whatever's in there (including ich) while not damaging the plants and giving me an opportunity to do a complete water change and try again in a few weeks? Thanks again, in advance, for any suggestions!!

A very, very desperate hobbyist who believed she was doing everything right... :help:

Sarah

[daveedka]

For information on ich:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39759

For more info on Bio-spira, the cycle, the stress it creates and so on :

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64301

Most likely the rid ich would have killed the tera's without any other stress. despite the reccomendations for half dosage on sensative fish it still usually proves too much stress for tetra's and most cats. It actually sounds to me like the bio-spira did in fact work very well. For a full load of fish to cycle that quickly something went quite right. It is a good product, but its ability to work is directly proportional to bio-load. it may not have been enough to handle the bio-load you had.
Dave

[rrkss]

If I raise the temperature to 83 degrees and leave it that way for a few days (a week?) would that be sufficient to kill whatever's in there (including ich) while not damaging the plants and giving me an opportunity to do a complete water change and try again in a few weeks? Thanks again, in advance, for any suggestions!!

A very, very desperate hobbyist who believed she was doing everything right... :help:

Sarah

Hi Sarah, I just cured ich in my heavily planted aquarium using just salt and heat. To give you an idea of what I faced, here is a picture of one of my white skirt tetras before the salt treatment started.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/rrkss/ich.jpg

What I did was take the plants out of my aquarium and bunched them into a small 10 gallon aquarium. Imagine a 55 gallon tank with over 75% of the substrate planted being stripped bare and fitting that all into a 10 gallon. Not an easy task. I then put one of my large double tube florescent fixtures over the 10 gallon and used a simple hagen ladder to supply them with CO2. While the plants were resting in that tank, I salted my tank using the standard 3 teaspoons per gallon treatment and held it in there at a lethal strength for ich for 8 days though I reccomend 10-14 days of salt in the tank. I kept the temperature at 82*. Good luck and stop using the rid ich+ the formalin is very caustic to the fish and the MG is not so nice for them easier. It also degrades too rapidly in any high light + dissolved organics environment (aka planted tank) to really be 100% effective. Salt is cheaper + safer on the fish.

10-14 days in a bare tank without any fish is sufficient to disinfect them from the parasite though if you are worried you could treat the plants with the rid ich+.

Raising the temperature is not enough to successfully treat ich. It will just make the parasite more virulent.

[SciFiFan42]

Thanks for the replies!

Re Dave's comments: "It is a good product, but its ability to work is directly proportional to bio-load. it may not have been enough to handle the bio-load you had."

I normally wouldn't have given it such a full load so quickly; however, from the posts I read on the board and from the product's own recommendations, it seemed the correct thing to do was to add all of the fish. I think, though, my problem lies with the use of Rid-Ich, instead. I had been giving the full dosage, thinking that the tetras would be fine since they were "hardy" fish. I do feel terrible about this, and have learned my lesson --

Re: Rrkss's comments

I will certainly try the more natural way from now on. I had read your posts on the subject, and had thought about simply using salt and heat, but then decided to use medicine because I didn't trust myself to carry out the salt/heat treatment properly -- this backfired quite ironically, and I do feel terrible for the suffering I've inflicted upon my fish as a result. :(

I will follow your recommendations regarding the plants and "cleaning" of the tank, and will hopefully have more success the second time around. Thanks again!

Sarah

[daveedka]

Just FYI there is usually never any reason to remove the plants. I have done ich treatments with a multitude of plants and invertibrates. caution is not a bad thing, but unnecessary work is.
Dave

[daveedka]

I normally wouldn't have given it such a full load so quickly; however, from the posts I read on the board and from the product's own recommendations, it seemed the correct thing to do was to add all of the fish.

More often than not this will work, but the high nitrite levels show that it wasn't enough bacteria, while the high speed of recovery shows that you did get a good dose of bacteria. It's always a little bit of a crap shoot when using bacteria starter colonies of any kind with fishy cycle. On occasion things don't go as planned .
I would agree that the rid ich was more likely the issue with the fish deaths.
Make sure you keep ammonia in the tank if all of your fish do die. then the tank will remain cycled for the next batch of fish.

And also if there are no fish in a tank ich cannot survive so just leave things set for a week without fish and then you will be rid of ich in the tank. Carbon will remove the meds.
Dave

[rrkss]

Carbon will remove the meds.
Dave

This is true for the Malachite Green but formalin does not really get removed by activated carbonl. I'd reccommend a couple large water changes first before adding the salt. Formalin kills ich by replacing the internal cytoplasm in the cells with a jelly be denaturing proteins. Same thing happens to the fish's cells hence the caustic effect though the fish cope it better than the ich parasite. Salt will worsen this effect and therefore you should remove the formalin first with a water change.

[Roan Art]

Bio Spira is only available in 30 gallon and 90 gallon sizes. Do did you put in 2x30 gallon packs or 1x90 gallon packs?

If you only used 1 30 gallon pack, that may be part of the problem.

Roan

[themadblimper]

Prime also kills of the specific bacteria present in the bio-spira. Read the back of the packet of bio-spira, states specifically that water conditioners other than bio-whateveritis will kill the bacteria in bio-spira.

[daveedka]

Prime also kills of the specific bacteria present in the bio-spira. Read the back of the packet of bio-spira, states specifically that water conditioners other than bio-whateveritis will kill the bacteria in bio-spira.

This is actually information I've not heard before. Has anyone else had this issue arise? Obviously the prime did not completely kill off the bacteria, and it seems odd that it would since the bacteria are the same as the ones we grow naturally and prime does not kill them off. But if there is some truth to this it should be verifed and shared.
dave

[Roan Art]

http://www.marinelandlabs.com/cus_faq.asp#48


"Answer C: Ammonia-removing products may harm BIO-Spira® rendering it less effective at reducing ammonia and nitrite. For best results, use exclusively with BIO-Safe™."

Almost sounds like a marketing ploy for Bio Safe :)

Roan

[daveedka]

"Answer C: Ammonia-removing products may harm BIO-Spira® rendering it less effective at reducing ammonia and nitrite. For best results, use exclusively with BIO-Safe™."


Prime does not remove ammonia. It binds it. Ammonium is still available to bacteria so prime should not hurt anything. I'm thinking it is a ploy, but would like to know if anyone has actual test information. Products that do in fact remove ammonia would harm bio-spira.
Dave

[RTR]

No, not solely a ploy, as real ammonia-sequestering treatments can starve nitrification bacteria - there is nothing new there. So here the key is the differnce is in "harming" by stravation versus "killing" as a number of meds do. If Prime actually killed nitrification bacteria, a lot of us would be in trouble. The difference lies in the nature of how the ammonia is handled, locking it into the ammonium form versus sequestering/removing it permanently.

[themadblimper]

Prime contains sulfur, that much I know. Never used bio-safe, if someone could post its contents, I would compare the two and share the results.

First thing I thought when I read the warning on the back of bio-spira was "marketing technique." Now that I read the top of this thread, I thought I'd share what I read. Who knows, there may be some verification to it.

Wait... here we go. It says that repeated use of ammonia removing products inhibit the action of bio spira. My guess is that it would starve off the bacteria.

[Roan Art]

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ml_biosafe.asp

"PRINCIPLE INGREDIENTS:
odium hydroxymethane sulfinic acid"

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime_faq.html

From my bottle:

"Contains complexed hydro-sulfite salts"

I sent SeaChem an email to see what they say about Prime and Bio Spira.

Roan

[Roan Art]

Wow, talk about a fast answer from SeaChem! Note: headers and email addresses removed for obvious reasons:

Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:10:00 -0500
To: Roan Art (Eileen Kortright)
From: Seachem Tech Support
Subject: Re: Prime and Bio Spira

comments: Will adding Prime to a new tank with fish and Bio Spira render the Bio Spira useless?

Prime will bind the ammonia and nitrite so that it is nontoxic to the fish but it is still available for the bacteria. So the addition of Prime will non effect the Bio Spira in any way.

Best Regards,
Seachem Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wonder what Marineland would say.

Roan

[Roan Art]

And here is the reply from Marineland:

----------------------
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To: "Eileen Kortright"

No. They both have ammonia removing additives that can harm Bio-Spira.


Thank you
Marineland
Tech help
(800) 322-1266 Ext. 4943
(805) 529-3030 Fax


-----Original Message-----
From: Eileen Kortright
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:54 AM
To: Marineland Aquarium Products
Subject: Tech help, Bio Spira

Will SeaChem's Prime and/or Kordon's Amquel or Amquel Plus work with Bio Spira?

Eileen Kortright
-----------------------

Of course, being an obnoxious person, I'll just have to forward copies of each email to the respective companies just to be a royal PITA :)

Roan

[pl*co]

Staying tuned for the next installment... :dive: Unfortunately, I think they will probably stick to their guns and point to each other's "erroneous" information.

[daveedka]

Staying tuned for the next installment... Unfortunately, I think they will probably stick to their guns and point to each other's "erroneous" information

I would say they will stick to their guns, but simple ammonia test kits will prove Seachems claims. If a test kit does not distinguish between ammonia and ammonium prime shows no change. if the test does distinuish then you can see that prime did in fact change the free ammonia into ammonium. Since it is pretty much known that our bacteria (the same bacteria contained in bio-spira) can and do consume ammonium as well as ammonia, Seachem wins this argument as far as I'm concerned.

MArineland either doesn't know the difference or they are trying to market through flase claims. Neither one recieves a vote of confidence from me.
Dave

[Roan Art]

. . .
MArineland either doesn't know the difference or they are trying to market through flase claims. Neither one recieves a vote of confidence from me.
Dave

I agree, however, to give Marineland the benefit of the doubt my email may have been answered by someone who really did not know and was "winging" it. Not good, but a common practice by companies.

I did forward copies to each company and I can't wait to see what they say :) If need be, I'm going to push the point with Marineland because I also believe that Prime and Amquel are fine to use with Bio Spira. I *have* used Prime and have had no problems that were not of my own doing.

Roan

[daveedka]

I'm a big fan of anything from marineland that doesn't come in a bottle or can. I wish they'd stick to filters and powerheads most days though. Considering the abundance of myths and confusion in this hobby it is a wonder anyone knows what they are talking about. I imagine the person answering your e-mails said what they thought was correct.
Dave

[RTR]

I would suspect that the form of NH3/NH4+ actually used by the bacteria would likely be the ionic form. The NH3 + H+<->NH4+ equilibrium will compensate all but instantly for relative concenrations, that is no issue. Generally ions are easier to transport and metabolize. Any bacteriologists in the crowd?

[themadblimper]

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That was EXACTLY what I had expected the responses to be from both companys.

You realize that we've just created a scandal... :D

[SciFiFan42]

Yikes, ok, now I'm confused. Shouldn't I use a product to take the chlorine and related substances out of the water (such as marineland's bio-safe or prime), then add biospira, then the fish? This is what I did originally, I wonder if this could have caused the problem??

Regardless, I am going to try the salt/heat treatment now, as I have lost the remainder of the fish. I think I may, after a week of this, do several large water changes and then try the bio-spira route again. Or, would trying to "feed" the current bacteria I have with ammonia while in this process be a better choice?

Sarah

[daveedka]

Or, would trying to "feed" the current bacteria I have with ammonia while in this process be a better choice?


Definately better to feed the existing bacteria and maintain them. Once estabilished it is far easier to grow them than to take your chances with re-introducing them later.

As far as Prime or Bio-safe, I'm really pretty certain neither one will hurt your efforts. Too many people use these products for me to think otherwise. If they killed bacteria we would see constant posts on the boards. Chlorine absolutely will kill bacteria so dechlorinator is a must.

If you still have a live fish then treat with salt and heat, and once you are sure ich is dead then begin re-stociking slowly. if you do not have any fish left then neither salt or heat is needed. Just maintain the tank for a week empty and ich will die off on it's own. Elevated heat would speed this up, but I never suggest jumping the gun even with temps elevated.

If you don't have fish, buy some clear ammonia, and dose to 3 ppm follow fishless cycling instructions from there while you wait out the ich. since you already have a good colony going, it should take little time to prepare a huge colony and allow you to fully stock the tank once all other vairiables are put to rest.

Dave

[pbecot01]

When I stocked my 75 with bio-spira i had a nitrite spike as well (never saw any ammonia)... I added the extra packet of biospira that I had bought and it cleared up overnight.

[Roan Art]

Well, here's the response we've been waiting for and straight from the horse's mouth . . . Marineland:

------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:33:08 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To: "Eileen Kortright"

Hello,
As long as it is not overdosed, Prime is safe to use with Bio-Spira. Sorry for the mix up.

Thank you
Marineland
Commercial Systems & Service
(800) 322-1266
(805) 529-3030 Fax
----------------------------------

I'm going to ask them specifically about Amquel and Amquel Plus, just so we know.

AND I'm going to ask them to update their FAQ :) I love causing trouble :Angel:

Roan

[Roan Art]

Here's a VERY interesting reply from Marineland Tech support in regards to using Amquel with Bio Spira:

---------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:29:23 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To: "Eileen Kortright"

Sorry about that! Amquel is not recommended to use with the Bio Spira


Thank you :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Eileen Kortright
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:41 AM
To: Marineland Aquarium Products
Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira

At 12:33 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote:


Hello,
As long as it is not overdosed, Prime is safe to use with Bio-Spira. Sorry for the mix up.


That's great! Thank you very much, but what about Amquel and Amquel+?

Eileen Kortright
------------------------------------

Hrm!
Roan

[Roan Art]

Okay, sent another email to Marineland Tech asking for an explanation on Amquel and to update their Bio Spira FAQ.

I also invited them to post the answers here. Doubt that they will, but it would be awesome if they did.

Roan

[themadblimper]

This is very interesting, and I hope they do respond.

...I also stand corrected. :)

[RTR]

Amquel, not the "plus" formulation, can have pH effects which definitely could adversely affect the tender bacteria. Think of all of the posts we have seen from folks w/soft water locking up with low pH from the start of nitrification and then no progress until the KH/pH is corrected. Marineland would have no difficulty defending that position. The original Amquel could easily do the same from the getgo.

[anonapersona]

Definately better to feed the existing bacteria and maintain them. Once estabilished it is far easier to grow them than to take your chances with re-introducing them later.
...

If you don't have fish, buy some clear ammonia, and dose to 3 ppm follow fishless cycling instructions from there while you wait out the ich. since you already have a good colony going, it should take little time to prepare a huge colony and allow you to fully stock the tank once all other vairiables are put to rest.

Dave


If this tank has live plants, just feed the plants, let the ich die off in a few weeks with no hosts.

Keep the plants growing, feed them lightly, and when the plants are looking wonderful, add fish. The growing plants will easily consume any ammonia the fish make.

No "fishless cycling" for planted tanks!!

[Roan Art]

Here is the next installment from Marineland tech. Warning, this is LONG and I have not read it all yet:

------------------------------
Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:14:44 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To: "Eileen Kortright"

is not harmful to fish, but the bacteria can not process it either. By taking away its food source (ammonia) the bacteria may not perform as expected. If Bio-Spira is being used in a new set up an ammonia binder is no longer necessary as the bacteria will immediately go to work to consume any available ammonia and nitrites present. I also feel that I should mention that certain tests kits will yield a false positive if ammonium is present in the system. I believe it is the Nessler method that will read ammonium as ammonia. This gives the illusion that ammonia is present in the system when it really is Bio-Spira is a bacteria additive that has always existed in established aquariums. We have not engineered or produced a type new bacteria, rather through scientific research we have been able to identify the correct ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. We currently hold patents and patents pending on these strains of bacteria. No other bacterial additive on the market will perform like Bio-Spira does simply because they are not using the correct types of bacteria. The reality is that the other stuff on the market may help to encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria but are not the real oxidizers (http://www.marineland.com/science/reports/15amoxbact.asp). The two types of bacteria contained in Bio-Spira have been around for ages and are very hardy and hard to mishandle. Aside from freezing the bacteria the only other ways to really kill it would be to let it dry up, or to place it in unstable water conditions.

Of course our water conditioners will work best with Bio-Spira. We have tested and designed our chemicals to compliment our bacteria. Most other water conditioners will work fine too. Please keep in mind that there are quite a few water conditioners on the market and we simply have not tested them all. The problem with products such as Amquel is that it contains an ammonia binder. An ammonia binder will cause a chemical reaction which alters ammonia and changes it into ammonium. Ammonium in an altered form, ammonium.

It is okay to use a product such as Prime or Amquel to initially treat the water. It will bind any ammonia in the water. Once fish are added they will produce more ammonia in their waste and allow the Bio-Spira to go to work. As stated on the package we recommend adding the bacteria at the same time the fish are added. If done properly the tank should be set up, filled with treated or filtered water and left to run for 24 hours. This will allow the chemical water conditioners to do their job and will also let the water temperature stabilize.

I have heard some reports that people continue to add Prime, Amquel or similar water conditioners for several days or weeks after setting up a new tank to keep ammonia at a "safe" level or as a preventive to promote "healthy fish". This is completely unnecessary when using Bio-Spira and can create an unstable environment for the fish and for the bacteria. I understand that an overdose of said water conditioners may cause a rapid drop in pH. As we all know this might shock everything in the system. I recommend following the directions listed on the products you choose to use. Don't just squirt a bunch of water conditioner in the tank. If its 5 drops for 10 gallons, be sure to measure 5 drops.

Speaking from my personal experience, I have had the opportunity to use Bio-Spira on several occasions. I have found that a tank will generally complete its "cycle" in about 3-5 days. During the first few days the ammonia and nitrites levels may spike slightly but will stay within a safe range for the fish. I have never seen these levels rise above .5ppm but I have had some customers report levels as high as 2.0 (still within a high/safe range). Likewise I have had some customers report that Bio-Spira has completely cycled their tank within 24 hours. I have not experienced such fast results but have always been satisfied with the products performance. Keep in mind that variables such as tank size, water chemistry, stocking density, amount and frequency that the tank is fed and so on; all play into the speed at which a tank will cycle with or without Bio-Spira. I feel that it is not so much an issue of what one can or can't use, rather it is most important to follow the directions. We have tried to simplify the process into 4 easy steps with our product line. Bio-Safe, Bio-Spira, Bio-Coat and Bio-Blend. Please let me know if you have any further Q's :-)
----------------------------------

Roan

[daveedka]

If this tank has live plants, just feed the plants, let the ich die off in a few weeks with no hosts.

Keep the plants growing, feed them lightly, and when the plants are looking wonderful, add fish. The growing plants will easily consume any ammonia the fish make.

No "fishless cycling" for planted tanks!!


Yup, I wasn't thinking about the plants when I made that reply. Assuming enough plant mass and good growth you will be fine with plants. If not enough plant mass and growth you still don't want ammonia as this is a recipe for green algae blooms. More detail can be found in the cycling article.

Sorry about any confusion this may have caused.
Dave

[RTR]

The longer response from Marineland looks good to me. Well reasoned and well written. The only thing I could wish were present would be a warning against Amquel in low KH water, but their site water may not be soft and so not tested for such. Also it might well be impolitic to cite negatively a 'competitor'.

[SciFiFan42]

Hi Everyone,

Wow -- I'm learning more from this discussion than I have from reading weeks of posts on the forums. :)

In any case, my tank is well planted, I think. Would one large marble radican, 14 Anacharis, 8 Cabomba, 4 Radican Sword , and 3 Anubias nana constitute a well planted 40 gallon aquarium? They are all growing beautifully (except for some unsightly "air/water roots" that I'll trim back this weekend). By feed them, do you mean with extra CO/2 or with a bit of fish food to provide food for the bacteria?

Also, I've noticed that my algae is beginning to get a bit out of control -- will this be a problem -- should I act on it?

As always, I appreciate the comments, and I hope that others are benefiting from this discussion as well.

Sarah

[tomdkat]

For more info on Bio-spira, the cycle, the stress it creates and so on :

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64301
:OT: Kudos to you for posting that article! :clap:

Peace...