Fishless Cycling Shortcut

[Luca Brazzi]

I know this may rub some of you the wrong way, however, Im the type of person who likes to deal with what works.

Want to speed up your fishless cycle? Here's how.

1) Add 5ppm Clear Ammonia to your tank.

* If you have some items/gravel from an established tank, add it as well to hurry up the process.

2) Wait for the 5ppm ammo to go to 0 ppm (For brand new media it could take as much as 3 weeks for the ammo to go to 0 the first time)

3) Do a Nitrate test. If you have high (100+ppm) Nitrates, then goto 4, otherwise goto 1

4) Stop adding Ammonia!

5) Wait 1 day

6) Do a 100% water change

7) Wait 1 day

8) Do a 100% water change

9) After a few hours, are your Nitrites at 0? If so goto 10, otherwise goto 8

10) Add fish

11) If you get any detectable Nitrites after adding the fish (which more than likely you wont), do a partial water change.

* Note: In step 10 add your hardiest fish first. For those of you adding predatory fish (Cichlids, etc). Throw in a few feeders for a day or two, then add your Oscar (to clean out the feeders :D).

Some of you may be saying... What about the Nitrites going to 0?

They will... very quickly!

Consider this... The amount of Nitrites produced on a daily basis are proportional to the amount of ammonia being generated by the fish and consumed by the ammo eating bacteria. If you reduce the amount of ammonia in the tank you will reduce the amount of Nitrites being produced in a day. This being the case, ask yourself this question: How much ammonia will the fish I plan to stock my tank with produce in 1 day? I guarantee, unless you are WAY,WAY overstocking the tank, your fish will not get anywhere NEAR generating 5ppm of ammo in a single day. I currently have 20+ small feeder fish (.5-3") in a completely filterless 15 gallon tank and 3 days after doing a water change the ammo reading was only .5 ppm (yes, I changed the water again for them at that point)! Anyway after your ammo goes to 0 more than likely you will have enough Nitrobacter (Nitrite eating bacteria) on your biofilter to support the bioload you plan to keep, but it may not yet be able to consume all of the Nitrite produced from 5ppm ammo being nitrified (hence the reason you have a high Nitrite reading), but it is more than likely enough to support your fish so... do a 100% water change and GO FOR IT! To help a little more with completing the cycle you can also add another couple of handfuls of gravel from an established tank at this point.

How does this work?

You see, by stopping the ammonia additions and doing the water changes you will in effect "starve" the 1st set of bacteria so they will begin to lower the amount of Nitrite they produce. This lowered Nitrite output will be low enough to able to be completely consumed by the Nitrobacter 2nd bacteria set. This will bring the whole system into balance. When you add your fish, they will begin producing ammonia, but at a MUCH lower rate than 5ppm/day. This much lower rate of ammonia production by your fish, will result in a much lower rate of Nitrite production which your Nitrobacter easily handle.

The moral of this story is... Why grow all that bacteria when your bioload wont support it anyway? If you are like me, and are adding a few small fish at time, you wont NEED a bacteria colony big enough to consume 5ppm ammo in a day.

Or you could just get some Bio-Spira from Marineland and cycle your tank in a day :D

[OrionGirl]

I'm moving this into General FW. The newbie forum is for people who are trying to learn the process, the right way, and attempting to short cut the development of biological filtration isn't really effective.

If you are willing to expose your fish to nitrites, which are more toxic than ammonia, your call. Advising others to do so, in a Newbie forum, is not okay.

[EagerAqua]

Hi Luca,

If I understand you correctly, I don't think you are doing anything drastically different - except skipping the nitrIte tests or adding more ammonia to top up to 5ppm. Not sure if this would speed things up though. IMO adding ammonia keeps the nitrite production humming.

As well, what I like about doing a fishless the 'traditional' way is the control I have through the whole process. I always know what my readings are and can keep close tabs on how the cycle is proceeding and adjust as necessary.

Have you done this on your tanks?

Eager

[Luca Brazzi]

I think you are missing the point Eager. If after your ammo goes to 0, you have lots of Nitrates, you are almost done, just change the water a couple of times (over or 2 or 3 days) without adding more ammonia, and you are done... Add fish instead of continuing to add 5ppm ammonia while waiting for the Nitrite eater colony to grow large enough to consume the Nitrite produced by 5ppm ammo which your bioload wont generate anyway.

To answer your question as to if I did this... yes.

During my fishless cycle, I waited till my ammo went to 0 (at this point I did a Nitrate test and the Nitrates were 150ppm+), then I kept adding ammonia (I could have skipped this step). My Nitrites and Nitrates were through the roof. So I decided to cut to the chase. I did a couple 100% water changes and got both the Nitrites and Nitrates down to 0. Then I added fish, and within 2 days my Nitrites were 0 (it did raise to very low, barely detectable levels then went back to 0). Since I already had the ammo eater colony established (from adding the ammo), the ammonia level was fine.

And I added a bunch of fish...

The point is that the fish were generating WAY less than 5ppm ammo daily, so the daily production of Nitrite was also minimal, and was low enough to be handled by the Nitrobacter colony that was already present.

In short, if at the point your ammo drops to 0 you have lots of Nitrates the way I did, you already have both sets of bacteria, however, the second colony isnt quite large enough to handle the Nitrite produced by adding 5ppm ammo, but it is more than likely large enough to handle the Nitrite produced by Nitrifying the ammo your fish will produce.

Unless of course your are planning to add 4 full grown Oscars to a 40 gallon tank. :D

The alternative is to wait till youve got a Nitrobacter colony large enough to handle Jaws in a goldfish bowl (an additional 1.5 to 2 times the time it took to grow the ammo eaters), then throwing your 4 Neons in there.

Waste of Time.

[RTR]

Actually, you could never read any ammonia with fish in a fully stocked tank, on a fishless cycled one which has completed the ammonia phase of bacterial development. Fish release small amounts of ammonia constantly (as opposed to single daily doses during fishless cycling) so the titer in the tank is never detectable by hobby tests. However, a fully stocked tank which has not been fishless cycled can easily build up to 3-5ppm ammonia in a day or two. The nitrite from that level of ammonia production will be every bit as toxic as the ammonia would have been.

Very poor practice IMHO and IME. The tank used as an example had been in process quite some time, and obviously had developed significant nitrite oxidizing bacteria. It does not in any way follow that every tank past the ammonia peak is ready for fish.

Use this technique only at your own risk and with full awareness that fish kill may result.

[Luca Brazzi]

It does not in any way follow that every tank past the ammonia peak is ready for fish.

Interesting point RTR that's the reason to test for high Nitrates. Those without lots of Nitrates should go back to step 1.


The tank used as an example had been in process quite some time, and obviously had developed significant nitrite oxidizing bacteria

The tank hadnt cycled to the point of completely eliminating the Nitrite from 5ppm Ammo either. Point being I didnt need to wait for the Nitrites from daily additions of 5ppm ammo to go to 0.

Those are the facts. Not my opinion.

[Luca Brazzi]

From my tests on the 20+ fish Ive got in the filterless 15 gallon, they are generating about .2ppm ammo per day in a 15 gal. So It would seem reasonable that the per day concentrations would reduce in a linear fashion the larger the tank gets (.1ppm/day for a 30 gal, .05 ppm/day for 60 gallon, .025ppm/day for a 120 gal, etc.)

Now why would I need a bacteria colony capable of consuming 5ppm/day when all Im producing is less than .05ppm/day in my 75 gallon tank?

Answer is... I dont. All I need is a bacteria colony large enough to handle the .05ppm/day my fish will produce.

Now... you might ask... Why not just start off by adding .05ppm ammo instead of 5ppm and then wait till both go to 0? To that I say...

You are a gifted genius wise beyond your years!

However, the problem with your method is that the speed of development of the second set of bacteria (Nitrite eaters) is greatly increased by the overabundance of Nitrites due to the massive amounts of Nitrites generated by the ammo eaters consuming the 5ppm ammo.

Yep... first Voodoo Economics, then Fuzzy Math, now this! :D

[RTR]

Not wanting to start an argument, but the tank in question had been through many, many more manipulations than simple ammonia additions. Trying to replicate that process would be quite daunting. And in my opinion, trying to present it as a simple and reproduceable case is misleading.

[Luca Brazzi]

Geez...

Its interesting to see how some folks just seem to get their undies all in a bunch when something a little different than what they are used to comes along!

No matter what the tank went through, the facts remain. I NEVER had enough Nitrobacter to consume the Nitrite generated by adding 5ppm ammo.

Never.

After a couple of massive water changes, I added fish, and my Nitrites went to 0. If I had continued adding 5ppm ammo, weeks later I'd STILL be waiting for the Nitrite to drop. Instead, Im thoroughly enjoying my less than .05ppm/day in a 75 gallon tank ammo generating Cichlids.

[EagerAqua]

Hey Luca,

I totally comend your willingness to try and improve the process and thank you for it. I am at a loss for what to say here because I have no experience with your method and all we are talking about is theories. It may very well have worked for your tank, but I would need to see it work in a number of other people's tanks to feel comfortable trying it.

Eager

[OrionGirl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
Geez...

Its interesting to see how some folks just seem to get their undies all in a bunch when something a little different than what they are used to comes along!
QUOTE]

Unless you want this locked, please reconsider your statements. Being snippy with other posters won't win you any points.

You are proposing a 'method' which is counter to logic, as well as experience. This theory is like setting the oven to 500, when I really only need it to get up to 300. Aiming higher won't actually change how quickly the oven heats up. Your process doesn't change how fast the bacteria colonies develop.

The simple truth is that if you are to impatient to wait until the bacteria colonies develop, in accordance with established processes, and choose to expose your fish to nitrites, your call. Do not expect everyone to jump on your bandwagon, and don't be snippy and arrogant.

[Luca Brazzi]

I guess what would help folks understand this would be to give some numbers as well to specify how much Nitrobacter needs to be grown to support the expected bioload, and to convert the numbers to something that could be measured with a test kit. For example: After your ammo goes to 0, if you plan to add 3 small fish, and 4 medium, you should wait until your Nitrate reading rises from 0 to X in a single day before adding them. Or something of that nature.

[JSchmidt]

I would add that there is a pretty strong body of evidence (in the form of refereed scientific journal articles) that suggests nitrobacter aren't even the relevant bacteria in the oxidization of ammonia and nitrite, but that Nitrospira are.

Your 'technique' has worked once (and even that is up to debate, as the preceding discussion indicates). Before advocating a new technique or an alteration to a technique, most of us would need to see that technique repeatedly applied. In your case, there have been so many possible influences on the growth of bacterial colonies that it strains credulity to be able to say anyone could actually understand what caused your tank to cycle as it did.

Many of us are quite open to new techniques and approaches, and a lot of new equipment and products get informal 'road tests' here. We know the difference between careful methodical approaches to new techniques and post hoc 'explanataions' that can't rule out competing explanations.

Jim

[EagerAqua]

Jim I think you have summed the issue up very well in your post. Thanks,

Eager

[Sumpin'fishy]

One other thing I'd like to point out that I haven't seen mentioned here yet, is that there are a few fish which are very succeptible to disease/death with nitrite spikes (even minor ones lasting only a day!) as well as other water chemistry changes. What many don't know is that there are several minute changes/fluctuations on bio-colonies, water chemistry, etc taking place for a couple weeks to months in a newly set up aquarium, even when fully cycled the "acceptable" way. For this reason it is suggested that certain fish are added only to "established" aquariums (Cardinal Tetras for example).

I personally (as well as probably most of us) have noticed how even nitrates lower on average in a tank over a period of months with a constant fish supply. Mine used to reach about 20ppm each week before water changes, but now only reach 10ppm. I even waited two weeks this last time to test the results, and it is still at (roughly) 10ppm nitrates. This is what happens to water chemistry over time when a tank "establishes" itself.

I see where there was alot of thought that went into Lucca's cycling idea, and I'm sure many of us have thought of similar bypass methods, but the simple truth is that time is the best method of securing a stable environment for your fish. I'm sure there are many hardy fish which will survive Lucca's method in pretty much any tank, but there are other "sensetive" fish which won't last with that method in ANY tank! If you really want to bypass the cycling process, throw an juvenile Oscar into a 20 to 30 gal tank an go with it. It's not at all the best environment for him and you will have to keep up with water changes, but one of my old roomates used this method (knowing nothing of cycling) and his fish is still living and about 10" long now. Sometimes fish can survive terrible conditions and other times they belly-up at the slightest "smell" to the water.

The gist of what everyone here is saying is that there is a "safer" or better worded, more "conservative" method of cycling your tanks. This forum is for ideas of all kinds and hopefully people can find something that works best for them (and more importantly, their fish!)

[Luca Brazzi]

Very true Sumpin'fishy about some fish not being able to withstand any Nitrites in the water whatsoever...

So I will need to revise the method somewhat to specify to add your Hardy fish first (Mollies worked for me... I never lost a single Molly).

Or in the case of those who will be adding predatory fish, throw a few small feeders in there for a couple of days, till you are sure things have settled down, THEN... add your Oscar :D

In short... using this method can save you several weeks of time and get those fish in there! Afterall we are in this hobby to keep Fish, not to play chemist!

Thanks for bringing up that point Sumpin'fishy

Oh yeah... OrionGirl... Thanks for highlighting my comments! I too wanted to emphasize the point I was making... Having you put it out there in nice BOLD letters makes it much easier to read!

Now why didnt I think of that? :D

[OrionGirl]

Better?

You know, I don't care if you like me, I don't care if you agree with me...But being rude is just uncalled for, don't you think?

[superstein61]

LOL Oniongirl - thats classic ;)

Luca - you need to chill a bit. Hey, I have enjoyed your posts and your many DIY adventures, but I do see the point and concern that many others have raised here. Shoot, if I recall, you started to pre-cycle this filter in your bathtub ;) Your experience with this tank is far from normal.

I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion. perhaps you are on to something, perhaps not. I am sure people skeptically looked upon the inventor of fishless cycling at first - shoot, I know my LFS folks look at me crazily when I tell them I cycle my tanks by pouring in Ammonia and don't use fish. That said, one experience does not make for a solid recommendation. You shouldn't get upset at folks who are basically saying that.

If you want to prove them wrong, and come up with the patented Luca cycling method :D - do a few more "controlled" tests and post the results daily as you go. You will win over more folks that way than slinging barbs at them :)

[Luca Brazzi]

The media sat for several weeks bone dry before I restarted the cycling process so any bacteria I established during the tub cycling (which was working I might add :D) would have died. And even if it didnt where the media was cycled is a non issue. Its the water chemistry that matters. The simple fact of this whole thing is that I DID NOT, need to wait till the "traditional" end of the fishless cycling process (0 ammo, 0 nitrites). After my ammo went to 0, I had more than enough Nitrobacter, Nitrospira, or little green men in pink jumpsuits to support my bioload (indicated by my high Nitrate concentration). If there were a thread like this before I started I could have saved myself a bunch of time.

OrionGirl (sigh), its just that this thread is about a particular subject. Read the title. There are folks here who are trying to discuss this topic, however, for some strange reason, you seem to feel the need to interrupt our discussion to inject irrelevant, childish, nonsense. Very poor behavior for someone who is supposed to be a moderator... or whatever you are, very poor. If you dont have something mature and on topic to converse about, please, do us a favor and let the adults talk. Kay? So as to not encourage your poor behavior, I will no longer respond to your tantrums. I wouldnt want to have to report your delightfully annoying off topic, snippy, yet spunky posts to another moderator...

Thanks in advance for your cooperation. And oh yeah... small or large... thanks again for re-re-re-emphasizing my point ;)

CICHLIDS ROCK!!!

Luca Brazzi

[RTR]

This level of rudeness and personal attack should not be tolerated on the board. After multiple repetitions on more than one thread, it seems to be time for administrative action.

[Luca Brazzi]

I agree wholeheartedly RTR... Hence my post to OrionGirl and decision not to engage her comments further.

Now...

Back to the issue at hand.

I think I should further revise this method so as to emphasize that getting the Nitrites down to 0 via water changes is important. So in effect, by not adding more ammonia, you will begin to somewhat starve the ammonia eaters to keep their Nitrite production low. In otherwords by doing the waterchanges and not adding the ammonia you are bringing the 2 sets of bacteria together in such a way that the output of set 1 matches the input requirements of set 2.

[Luca Brazzi]

superstein61

I'm a New Yorker.


I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion

To this I'd say that you cannot ignore the opposite of your statement as well which would be basically: Since there is no evidence that this method DOESNT work you have no factual grounds to reject it either. In otherwords, those who havent tried this method of cycling a tank have NO FACTUAL PROOF whatsoever that it DOESNT work! All they have is an opinion. Since there is MORE factual evidence that it DOES work (The readings dont lie, my 11 Cichlids that are now chillin in the tank that was cycled this way dont lie), at this point, its an acceptable alternative to waiting.

Dont worry, there will be another test when I cycle my next tank using this method.

[carpguy]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
1) Add 5ppm Clear Ammonia to your tank.

…

2) Wait for the 5ppm ammo to go to 0 ppm (For brand new media it could take as much as 3 weeks for the ammo to go to 0 the first time)

3) Do a Nitrate test. If you have high (100+ppm) Nitrates, then goto 4, otherwise goto 1

4) Stop adding Ammonia!

Luca,
Since you and I both know that the cycle is NH3 > NO2 > NO3, isn't this just a way of replacing the NitrIte test with a NitrAte test? Assuming that the Nitrates are coming from the cycle and not from ambient tap levels, doesn't the presence of high nitrates imply that the Nitrite-eaters (whatever they might be) have established themselves?

Seems to me that you're probably just lopping off the last few days of the nitrite spike and that due to large water changes and some hardy fish you aren't suffering any negative consequences. I'm not really seeing the innovation.

I also am a New Yorker and have been all my life. It doesn't give me a license to abuse other people and it doesn't give you one either. As a board member I'd appreciate it if you could manage to get your obvious enthusiasm disentangled from your hostility. As a New Yorker, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use that as an excuse for what most folks in most places call rudeness. Most folks I know are blunt, frank, quick, and courteous in ways that people who live in crowds find natural and necessary. Very few of them would hesitate to let you know some of your comments have been more than a little out of line.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
superstein61

I'm a New Yorker.

To this I'd say that you cannot ignore the opposite of your statement as well which would be basically: Since there is no evidence that this method DOESNT work you have no factual grounds to reject it either. In otherwords, those who havent tried this method of cycling a tank have NO FACTUAL PROOF whatsoever that it DOESNT work!

Luca - I am not here to argue with you. If you read what I wrote:

"I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion"

I did not say your method did not work. What I said basically is before one recommends and accepts it, it needs to be proven to work several times - not in a single case. The fact is your method worked ONE time for 11 SPECIFIC CICHLIDS. that does not mean it will work the next time for say 11 BLUE RAMS or 11 CLOWN LOACHES or 11 CARDINALS, etc, etc

[Luca Brazzi]

carpguy... It will lop off weeks, if the person cycling has the amount of Nitrates that I had when my Ammo went to 0. This was an obvious sign that the Nitrobacter colony was established and very capable of handling my initial bioload of 40+ small fish.

Its really quite simple... Im not seeing what the difficulty is with understanding this. Its not magic. I'm not Houdini. I didnt pull a rabbit out of a hat. Im not some crazy, wild haired, Back to the Future scientist who invented a new miracle cure. I was a simply a witness to the facts. I recorded the outcome and posted it here.

As to your other comments. I'm too through with that kind of irrelevant, ridiculous, nonsense that OrionGirl started (Think she didnt? Check out her first post. Yeah... sounds pretty darn snippy to me... even before she knew the details). Okay so PLEASE... do me a favor and tell it to Oprah will Ya? Thanks in advance.

[Luca Brazzi]

superstein61

I didnt immediately stock with the Cichlids. I threw in 40+ small fish to "Test the waters"...

Most of them croaked. However, the ones that croaked were feeders (guppies/rosey reds) that were on their last leg anyway. A few of the guppies and reds did survive though (one guppy actually gave birth during the process). There were also several (10+) Mollies in there. None of the Mollies died. Not a single one. I still have them in my filterless 15 gallon.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
superstein61

I didnt immediately stock with the Cichlids. I threw in 40+ small fish to "Test the waters"...

Most of them croaked. However, the ones that croaked were feeders (guppies/rosey reds) that were on their last leg anyway. A few of the guppies and reds did survive though (one guppy actually gave birth during the process). There were also several (10+) Mollies in there. None of the Mollies died. Not a single one. I still have them in my filterless 15 gallon.


Well Luca, the fact that most of them croaked is not giving me a warm and fuzzy feeling ;) I know you said most of them were on there last leg - but are you really sure of it. The fact that most of 40+ fish died using your method raises a red flag IMO (shoot, if not red, at least a yellow caution one).

I am glad you are excited about being able to shortcut the process, but now when you say most of 40+ fish died, I would hope you understand where I and others are coming from when we say this was a single case - and really shouldn't be recommended without further study and evidence

[carpguy]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
carpguy... It will lop off weeks…

How do you lop weeks off a process that only takes weeks?

If you can push your nitrates from low to very high you have an established a nitrite-eating colony, converting nitrites to nitrates. Your right: this isn't rocket science. This is the standard procedure minus one test. You threw 40+ fish into your tank and most of them croaked. Sounds like another flawless fishless. Ah… they died for other reasons. I should have known better. Science at its finest.


As to your other comments. I'm too through with that kind of irrelevant, ridiculous, nonsense that OrionGirl started (Think she didnt? Check out her first post. Yeah... sounds pretty darn snippy to me... even before she knew the details). Okay so PLEASE... do me a favor and tell it to Oprah will Ya? Thanks in advance.

Your obviously not done with it. And its been going on for awhile. If you want to play the maverick line up whatever it is you think you've got and try to keep the hostility out of it. Defend it if you can, and back down if you can't.

And don't thank me in advance.

Thanks in advance.

[jiggerpolebill]

if youre adding fish, how is it a fishless cycle?

im just an ignorant drunk redneck from tennessee. cycling a tank doesnt take that long anyway, so why shortcut it?

[Luca Brazzi]

Fishless cycling using new media can take up to 2 months or more.

It only takes about 3 weeks for the Ammo to go to 0. If at that point you have high Nitrates, and you plan to stock with a few fish (then add more over time). You can shortcut the process by discontinuing to add ammonia, doing a few water changes to get rid of your Nitrites, then adding your fish.

The current Fishless cycling method out there says you must continue to add ammonia till the 2nd bacteria colony establishes itself enough to consume all of the Nitrite produced by the daily additions of 5ppm ammonia, and your Nitrite goes to 0. If you plan to fully stock or overstock your tank immediately with a bioload that needs that much bacteria, then by all means knock yourself out and continue till the "end", however, if you are only planning on adding a few fish at a time anyway, you can stop, and add your fish.

The fish that croaked were A) Feeder guppies and Rosey Reds that had one foot in the grave and the other on a greased banana peel, and B) Did so long after the Nitrites were at 0. As I said previously, I also had several Mollies in there (The mollies were not from the feeder tank) and not one of them died.

[RTR]

The current fishless cycle technique is that proposed by Dr. Chris Cow in AquaSource magazine:

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/cycle2.shtml

That article calls for dosing at 5ppm levels of ammonia only during the intial phase until nitrites are detectable, after which the dosage is cut in half, so to 2.5ppm only. Most folk seem to maintain a dosage at 3ppm as that is more easily read than approximating the reading, but one-half the initial dosage volume will work perfectly well.

But accuracy is hardly to be expected in this thread or proposed technique which is now revealed to have killed the majority of the fish initially added to the tank.

[carpguy]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
Fishless cycling using new media can take up to 2 months or more.

My fishless, with no seed material, was done in 4 weeks plus 2 days at double zero. By most accounts thats a little on the long side. Most folks, seems to me, report 3-4 weeks.


The current Fishless cycling method out there says you must continue to add ammonia till the 2nd bacteria colony establishes itself enough to consume all of the Nitrite produced by the daily additions of 5ppm ammonia, and your Nitrite goes to 0.

We were both in a thread (http://64.191.28.50/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3926) a ways back where we discussed the dosing for fishless. We talked about the halving and about maintaining at 5ppm vs. repeating the initial dose daily. Most folks seemed to favor the maintain at method. MP had what seemed to me to be the best informed response:


Originally posted by MP (in the other thread (http://64.191.28.50/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3926))…I, however, could never see any reason to do it this way, so I just add enough ammonia (to about 5ppm or so) and wait till it starts dropping.…
Daily dosing in the beginning of cycle serves no purpose, IMO.… Overloading with ammonia will only lead to extra headaches with never disappearing nitrites later or some other problems like pH depression in poorely buffered tanks or depression of the second colony by the excess of ammonia.

I discussed it with Chris after he published the article, but, for some reason, he decided to leave it as is.

It seems to me that RTR has advocated this elsewhere as well, but I can't find the thread (wouldn't want to put any words in his mouth ;) ).

Maybe you'd have better results with the modified method.

If you want to try to let the bad blood go by the wayside I think you'll have better results with the board. Your obviously a creative guy with a lot to offer, and a stubborn guy with a tremendous capacity to raise the tempers.

In either case, your call.

[Luca Brazzi]

The guy at the LFS where I purchased the feeders told me the following when I purchased them from him: "I dont have really good feeders right now, most of them will more than likely die within a couple of days." Hence, he gave me an extra net full of mollies. I told him, that it was ok because A) I wasn't planning to feed them to a fish and B) I wasnt planning to keep them very long anyway. I guess he thought I was planning to take them home, put them in a quarantine tank for some period of time, then feed them to an Oscar or something, so he was letting me know that they probably wouldnt survive long.

[RTR]

And that of course makes an excellent and well-controlled study certain to be repeatable - yes, certainly it does.. not.

[Luca Brazzi]

Sure it does... fish are fish... the all generate ammonia, event the dead and dying. If I would have put 40 (pet quality) fish in there I wouldnt have lost a single one. Next time I do this thats what Ill do.

[ChilDawg]

Hmm...seems like we are planning on wasting money on 40 pet-quality fish for "next time." I will gladly retract this comment if there is scientific proof that 40 pet-quality fish survive in your tank using this method, but I let it stand for now.

Why don't you try sharing this method with a magazine such as TFH, AFM, or FAMA and see what they think?

Also, aren't there two types of bacteria used in tank maintenance? (One for NH3 to NO2 and one for NO2 to NO3.) How would starving one set make the others work better? Eventually, won't they all die for lack of work? A whole lot of dead bacteria because of this method isn't much better than a whole lot of fish poop. I think that you are creating anoxic conditions in your tank.

But I have an idea...this is going nowhere right now, because nothing can be proven with this new tank. Tell us how well it works in three months, and then we might start to believe in your strange tenets. Let us know if it worked for your pet-quality fish. (I urge you not to try it with any more fish...however, if you are going to do it anyway, let us know how it works.)

Again, if you can scientifically prove that it works for all sorts of varied tank situations, I will accept it. However, killing half-dead feeders and cycling a tank only constitutes one less-than-humane case.

[Botiadancer]

Question:

We know that you added fish on their last leg (fin?) to your tank.
We know that they nearly all died.
We know that you did 100% water changes.
We know that you added "good" fish to your tank right away.

Why would you add "good" fish to a tank that had just had fish with unknown problems without taking necessary precautions to prevent the possible spread of contagions? It seems your fish survived, but doesn't that seem like a bit of a risk? Isn't the whole idea of a fishless cycle is that you can add your healthy fish immediately without cause or concern of what might be in your tank?

I also question the whole idea of disposable fish, but that is another story indeed.

[Luca Brazzi]

ChilDawg...(sigh)

Is that with Onions, and Sauerkraut or what?

As to:


Also, aren't there two types of bacteria used in tank maintenance? (One for NH3 to NO2 and one for NO2 to NO3.) How would starving one set make the others work better? Eventually, won't they all die for lack of work?

Ok...

One more time...

This time read it reeeeeeeal slooooooooow... ok?

From the top....

And a one... and a two...

At the point I started doing water changes I had lots of Nitrites, and lots of Nitrates.

Now STOP for a moment... Take a deep breath.... then go back and reread the previous statement several times. Think about it for a while.... get a mental picture of whats going on, etc before proceeding.

Got it? I dont believe you! Go read it again.

Ok... now proceed to the next part...

I changed the water several times to get the Nitrites and Nitrates down to 0.

THEN I added the 40+ fish.

Let me repeat that...

I changed the water several times to get the Nitrites and Nitrates down to 0.

THEN I added the 40+ fish.

Now heres the hard part (you know... numbers and such)

Due to the fact that the Ammonia that the fish produced was FAR less than 5ppm (around 100 times less), the amount of Nitrite that was produced was also much less and the second set of bacteria that was already present (you know... the bacteria that generated the Nitrates in the 1st place?) was more than able to handle the Nitrite production from the .05 ppm ammonia generated by the fish.

Read the above over and over and over till it clicks.

If I had continued to the end (whenever that may have been) and added the same fish... they would have generated the same amount of ammonia/nitrites which would NOT be enough to support the bacteria colonies created by the 5ppm additions anyway.

So why grow it?

Capiche? Comprende? Tap, Tap, Tap, Testing 1-2-3, Testing 1-2-3.... Is this thing on?

This is not complicated Rocket Science. We arent trying to invent Cold Fusion or something, and we arent trying to mathematically prove the existence of Black Holes in deep space either.

Its really just a very simple way to shortcut the fishless cycling process. If you dont plan on way overstocking your tank at the end of the cycle, theres no need to wait the extra time (up to 2 times the time it took you to establish the ammonia eaters).

[ChilDawg]

Ha! For you it's with a side of kiss my ***!

Now, seriously, did that last post really make you feel better? I'm sorry if mine came off as rude, but yours came off as more than that.

I guess that I was not completely understanding what you were saying, but that does not give you the right to be insulting when I apparently need clarification.

I know that you put some time and effort into coming up with this method, and that it worked in this case, but I like scientific proof over many cases. I can't help it. I will accept the method at that point. Until then, I will listen to your ideas, but cannot accept them but with a grain of salt because that's how science works...if we didn't work that way, we'd still think that bags of grain magically caused mice to appear. Now go out there and find us those mice! (In a manner of speaking...how many mic taps do you need to understand this less-than-witty metaphor somewhat akin to yours?)

[jiggerpolebill]

i still dont get it.

maybe your fish did not produce 5ppm ammonia because they were dead.

do it about another 1000 times with the exact same results and you may be on to something.

[RTR]

Sorry Luca, the rest of us do not require your special learning tecniques. You can put them to good use picking up a few reading and comprehension skills.

[Luca Brazzi]

Actually, I didnt put in too much effort... it just happened, and I recorded the outcome. It should easily be reproduceable. At some point during EVERY fishless cycle, the colony of Nitrite oxidizers grows to the point where it is large enough to handle the load of fish you plan to initially stock with. All Im saying is that once that point is reached... STOP... no need to go any further... just do some large waterchanges and add your fish.

[carpguy]

Your powers of comprehension have certainly come along way since this thread (http://64.191.28.50/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3926) (back when you were still ignorant enough to be civil). You managed to ignore every poster in that thread and discover a shortcut that took you twice as long.

Perhaps I shouldn't have taken the bold of this quote from that thread (http://64.191.28.50/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3926):


Originally posted by MP
Overloading with ammonia will only lead to extra headaches with never disappearing nitrites later .

Rocket science. The new land speed record for a fishless cycle: two weeks lopped off two months! You had the longest fishless cycle I've ever heard of and you didn't even finish. I'll be sure to study your technique.

I picked up right away on your belief that your fish were half dead when you bought them, I've just never heard you say why they were half dead or what they were half dead from or why you'd want your "pet-quality" fish in there with them.

I'm also not clear where your getting your ammonia figures from. Are they your measurements from a cycled tank?

[famman]

I've had fish die of nitrite poisening, wouldn't your proposed method expose the fish to high levels of nitrites?
good luck
:)

[Botiadancer]

I understand what you are trying to say now.

You are stopping the fishless cycle when it can process x amount of nitrite (x being equal to something less than 5ppm).

That's it.

In my experience, (and I'm sure others here will agree) once it can handle 1 or 2 ppm of nitrite, it is a very short time (a few days maybe) before your tank will have 0 measureable nitrites.

Question: what is the rush to shave a few days off a cycle? When you think you are going to have your fish for years and years (at least if you are maintaining them properly), what difference does a few days make? Patience is one of the keys to successful fishkeeping. If it is that important to have fish right now, use established filter media in the new tank.

[Richer]

Luca Brazzi - I've gotten numerous complaints regarding your postings. Read over what you've written, and think about why I got so many emails regarding your posts.

Consider this thread closed.
-Richer