Looking for some serious help

[JimmyOrangeSeed]

Ok, so I will try to give enough information the first time so I can get help ASAP.
I have 2 tanks. Both are 47 gallons (I know weird number). One is completely over-stocked (it’s my girlfriends) and then there is mine. My girlfriend’s tank is fine; even though she has about 10x the amount of fish you want in a tank her size.
But, back to my point.... My tank has three fish, One Angel (Medium) One Banded Leporinus (Medium) and One Eclipse Catfish (Medium). I used to have a pretty full tank but they all died. It all started with a spike in my Nitrite. I want from about zero - 200 ppm in a week. I quickly realized that I had a problem. I had a few plants that weren’t doing so good, so I pulled them and then quickly did a 75% water change followed by another the next day. I use bottled water versus tap water because our tap water is horrible.
Needless to say, all but three died. All my fish had different symptoms and I figured that I had about 3 different bacterias. I then Clouted my tank and then I have been using this stuff called "Prime" and it has been successfully bringing my Nitrite down to a safer level. Oh and the three fish that are still alive have never shown any symptoms and are still fine. They eat, swim, poop just like they are supposed to.
But, I tried to add new fish and they die very quickly (1-2 days max). No apparent reason. I even saved one; quickly put it in my other tank and he survived no problem.
Also, I just started getting a very strong fish smell from my tank. I know this usually means I have a problem, but what, I don’t know.
I have quiet enough filtration and my tank is crystal clear. All filters have carbon in them and I just changed them yesterday.
If someone has an idea, I would love the help. I would love to just drain the thing and start over, but I don’t have any place for my fish.

P.S. When testing my water, everything has been fine, other than my Nitrite levels. Its at about 80-100 ppm right now, which is still bad but it is dropping.

[Bosemani Fan]

"All filters have carbon in them and I just changed them yesterday."

I think you mayhave found your problem, The only time you should change you filter media, is when the start falling apart. (I have run the same ones for about 8 months now). When you do a PWC just take the out and swish them around in a bucket of you old water to clean them. When you change them you should place the new filers in the filter box for about 1 week, Before switching them, allowing Bacteria to grow on the new ones. You are probably seeing a mini-cycle. What is yor ammonia level?

[Roan Art]

P.S. When testing my water, everything has been fine, other than my Nitrite levels. Its at about 80-100 ppm right now, which is still bad but it is dropping.I'm sorry, but there is no possible way your nitrite can be that high. If it were, ALL your fish would be totally dead. Are you sure you are not referring to nitrATES?

That said, we really need to know what the *exact* numbers are on your current ammonia, nitrates, nitrites and Ph. Do you have a test tube kit? If not, would you please try to get one? Testing strips are notoriously out of wack on some parameters, especially nitrates and nitrites.

Your current water change routine -- how much do you change out and how often?

If your nitrates, and it has to be nitrates because even the worst testing strips in the world would not show a number like that for nitrites, are that high, then you must not have been doing regular water changes -- or at least not enough to keep the nitrates under control.

I know you only have three fish in there, but that's a hefty bioload for a 47 gallon tank. Those three fish are going to get pretty darn big. By "eclipse catfish" you mean Horabagrus brachysoma, correct? The leo and the cat will grow to 12", and on average the angelfish will grow around 6-8" long and twice as tall, 12-16". Even at medium size, fish that grow large tend to put out a hefty amount of waste product. The end result of all that waste, and other waste producing processes in the tank, will show itself in nitrates.

Nitrates of that high a reading will kill new fish. Your old fish will have "gotten used to it", but they will die from it eventually as well. This is probably why you lost all your other fish.

Once you post your water parameters and tank change routine, we'll have a better idea of what is going on, but I really suspect you have OTS, or Old Tank Syndrom.

Here is an article that explains OTS:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/small/ots.html

And one on how to fix it:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/otswater.html

And the Water Change Math article that is referred to:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/waterchangemath.html

I really suggest you read up on this, because if you do not get control of the nitrates, you will lose your last three remaining fish.

Roan

[JimmyOrangeSeed]

Man, this is no fun :( My Leporinus is probably not going to make it. He is beautiful, but I dont think there is much I can do for him at this point.

I was wrong about the Nitrite and Nitrate.I double checked and I was wrong, its Nitrates that are very high in my tank.

Ok, I have a test kit. My Nitrate ~100, Nitrite ~0, Hardness ~75, Alk ~25, PH ~ 6.0 (seems to have dropped since I last tested 2 days ago)Amonia ~0.

I also change about 5 gallons a week on the tank. Thats about all I needed to get the gravel clean.

I am stilll pretty new at all this and have been trying to read up and do everything I can find online. My local fish store is full of idiots and they are always pointing me in the wrong direction.

**My new problem is what can I do with my fish to get them out of this tank. I dont want them to die, but I dont have space for anymore in my other tank. They dont seem sick, but neither did my Leporinus until this morning**

I appreciate all the help I can get and will try to check this as much as possible.

**edit : My Leporinus died while typing this message :( He was about 7". Poor little guy. Had him for at least 4 months. All that is left is my Angelfish and my Eclipse.**

[Roan Art]

I'm very sorry, Jimmy :(

Ok, I have a test kit. My Nitrate ~100, Nitrite ~0, Hardness ~75, Alk ~25, PH ~ 6.0 (seems to have dropped since I last tested 2 days ago)Amonia ~0.Jimmy, you need to test your tap water ASAP and post the pH results here ASAP. Then, please, take a cup of tap water and let it sit overnight. Test the pH and post it here.

It's very important.


I also change about 5 gallons a week on the tank. Thats about all I needed to get the gravel clean.But I'm afraid that's not enough to remove the nitrates. This is why you have OTS. Read the articles I posted for you.

Immediately, if not sooner, start changing out the water, 25% at a time. Make sure the new water is the right temperature and has been treated with dechlorinator. If you can do a change within the next hour, then do another 25% change 12 hours from now. Do NOT go overboard and try changing it all out at once. You could kill your fish outright by shocking them.

Tomorrow, do another 25% change out. Then Thursday, 50% change out. Test the water after every change. When you get those nitrates down to ~20ppm, post here.

Once we get these under control you will need to start a regular waterchange weekly of at least 50%. Those are big fish that need a lot of fresh water.


I am stilll pretty new at all this and have been trying to read up and do everything I can find online. My local fish store is full of idiots and they are always pointing me in the wrong direction.You're here and we'll help you through this.


**My new problem is what can I do with my fish to get them out of this tank. I dont want them to die, but I dont have space for anymore in my other tank. They dont seem sick, but neither did my Leporinus until this morning**Do NOT take the fish out of the tank. If you put them in another tank with good water, they will die from the shock. Follow the regime I outlined.


I appreciate all the help I can get and will try to check this as much as possible.

**edit : My Leporinus died while typing this message :( He was about 7". Poor little guy. Had him for at least 4 months. All that is left is my Angelfish and my Eclipse.**
We'll work on saving your angel and cat, okay?

Remember: I need to know your tap pH ASAP and the pH after you've left it sitting out overnight as well.

Roan

[JimmyOrangeSeed]

Within the last couple of weeks, on another board, a tank wipeout was reported from a gravel disturbance in a long-term “stable” tank. Hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg smell) was released, and many fish were poisoned. If you do have a long-term tank (years) with a completely undisturbed substrate, do not try to do a rebuild with the fish in the tank. The risks are too great. That was from the OTS link you gave me. That is exactly what happend to me. A few days ago when I did the 75% water changes.... Yea, everything smells like rotten eggs today.

Ok, my tap water, straight from the faucet :
Nitrate : 0
Nitrite : 0
Hardness : ~250 (thats even with a water softner, we have the hardest water ever)
Alk : ~250 also (dont know exactly what that means)
PH : ~8

I will post the PH from it sitting for a day tomorrow. I will wait to do a 25% water change until someone says that the faucet water is ok. I dont want to screw things up more than I have already. Oh and that OTS article hits me right on the dot. I am slightly embarressed that I am doing such a bad job at this, but at least I am now getting some well needed help.

Oh, and should the egg smell go away with the water changes because that needs to change soon. I cant sleep with the egg smell being so strong as it is and I cant open a window concidering its about 10 degrees outside.

[budrecki]

You need to do that 25% water change NOW, and again every 12 hours untill your nitrates are under 20ppm.

Water changes will help with the smell, But you MUST NOT do more than 25% every 12 hrs or you risk shocking the 2 fish you have left.

[Roan Art]

That was from the OTS link you gave me. That is exactly what happend to me. A few days ago when I did the 75% water changes.... Yea, everything smells like rotten eggs today.Right. When you change the water, don't touch the substrate. Wait until the nitrates are under control then a little at a time.


Ok, my tap water, straight from the faucet :
Nitrate : 0
Nitrite : 0
Hardness : ~250 (thats even with a water softner, we have the hardest water ever)
Alk : ~250 also (dont know exactly what that means)
PH : ~8

I will post the PH from it sitting for a day tomorrow.Thanks. Looks like you probably have a pH crash as well, which is common with OTS tanks. That's in the articles as well.


I will wait to do a 25% water change until someone says that the faucet water is ok. I dont want to screw things up more than I have already. Oh and that OTS article hits me right on the dot. I am slightly embarressed that I am doing such a bad job at this, but at least I am now getting some well needed help.You're the 5th? person I've helped through this. Don't be embarassed, just use it as a learning experience.

See how the facet water is so different from the tank water? That is why you have to go slow. The idea is not only to rid the tank of nitrates, but to get the water chemistry back to as close to the source water as possible.

Don't worry about the pH or GH or KH, they will adjust with the tank water. Change out 25% of the water. Twelve hours later, do another 25%. Tomorrow night, another 25%, then start with 50% for a few days. I want you to do a couple "back to back" to get the KH up a bit.


Oh, and should the egg smell go away with the water changes because that needs to change soon. I cant sleep with the egg smell being so strong as it is and I cant open a window concidering its about 10 degrees outside.Yes, it will go away once you start getting a few water changes under your belt.

Roan

[hurricanejedi]

See how the facet water is so different from the tank water? That is why you have to go slow. The idea is not only to rid the tank of nitrates, but to get the water chemistry back to as close to the source water as possible.
I thought this person used bottled water and not the tap? Hence different values?

[JimmyOrangeSeed]

Well, I used bottled water because the tap water was so hard. Thats basically the only reason. Everything from the bottled water is great, I just have to drive 30 minutes to get it because I live in the middle of no-where. So, looks like tap water it is, concidering getting 20 gallons from the store is more work then I needed :P

I will start doing my 25% water change. I am going to do it in my other tank as-well, concidering when I tested it, it showed the same levels in that tank as my other one.

I also dusted off my real ammonia tester because there is no way it was at zero and sure enough, high ammonia level also. I am going to throw away those test strips, they are worthless. What is the best testing equipment? I need to get something that is more accurate than what I have now.

Ok, wish me luck. I feel like I need to wear hazmat gear in my house.....lol

[hurricanejedi]

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals has a good master test kit.

[Galaxie]

I am slightly embarressed that I am doing such a bad job at this, but at least I am now getting some well needed help.

Been there, done that. Don't feel bad. (2 years ago, I had a year old oscar and a common pleco in a 20g hex. Yeah,....yikes...) Looks like you are on the right track now. :thm: Been here at Aq. Central every week for 2 years since, learning and absorbing. Makes the hobby great having a singular source of so much info.

[Roan Art]

I thought this person used bottled water and not the tap? Hence different values?
Yes. I had an edit to my post but I'm having problems reaching AC the past couple of weeks and it drowned in a sea of lost packets :mad:

Doing traceroutes to see who the culprit is. . .

Anyhow, the bottled water makes it worse. Dunno what kind of water it is, but possibly the KH is 0.

Roan

[mishi8]

If the bottled water is RO, it will have no dissolved solids in it, and no buffer. Changing water with it will lower the buffering capacity of the water in your tank, and result in a drop in pH. One can use RO water, but it either needs to be mixed with tap water or needs to be treated with a product like R/O Right (which added dissolvable solids, minerals and carbonate.)

If you have been using untreated bottled water for all of your water changes, then it may have been part of your fishes' health issues. If you have been using tap water for PWC and then suddenly started using bottled water, that can also have a negative effect on your water parameters.

[UncaBret]

Makes the hobby great having a singular source of so much info.
I certainly have to agree!

[JimmyOrangeSeed]

Ok, here is my update so far.

Girlfriends tank
PH - 7.6
Nitrate - 5
Nitrite - 2
Ammonia - 2

My tank
PH - 7.2
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - .25
Ammonia - 6

All my levels are slowly getting to where I want them. The ammonia is moving slower then the rest, but I am making sure to use lots of detoxifers for it.

I also havent lost anymore fish and the ones I have seem to being good. I think my angelfish is lonely though, that catfish doesnt give him much company. :P

Oh and I have been doing 25% water changes every 24 hours. I wish I could do it every 12 hours but with work and classes I cant find the time.

[budrecki]

At this point with your ammonia at 6, you should up your water changes to 50-75% evey day untill your cycle is complete

[Galaxie]

At this point with your ammonia at 6, you should up your water changes to 50-75% evey day untill your cycle is complete

If he's using an ammonia detox (aka AmmoLock), the readings will be off the chart (as he listed, 6 ppm), but its the harmless bound ammonia. So, you can't really use a test kit on ammonia while detoxing.

[happychem]

I can one up you on the overstocking of my first tank, Galaxie! A few swordtails, a few cories, 2 common plecos!! and plenty of bad lfs advice...

You will be much better off using your tap water. For one thing, doing major wc's won't be so daunting! However, if you have a bipass for your water softener, use it. "Softened" water is not for aquaria. For one thing, it's misleading, your water isn't softer, it's harder after passing through the water softener. Fish don't care about soap suds (the origin of soft vs. hard), they care about Total Dissolved Solids (TDS), effectively what controls osmosis. Water softeners remove Calcium (Ca++) and Magnesium (Mg++) ions and replace them with sodium (Na+) or potassium (K+) ions. But because ionic charge must be maintained 2 sodium ions are substituted for each Magnesium and Calcium ion, so as far as fish are concerned, the water is harder. Plus, calcium and magnesium are useful, sodium less so.

The presence of nitrate is encouraging, it means that you have the proper bacterial colonie present. The rotten egg smell is indicative of hydrogen sulfide, a highly toxic gas produced by reduction of sulfate in anoxic conditions. In other words, it means that your tank has low O2 levels, which slows the nitrifying bacteria. To improve your situation, consider lowering the water level until you hear the trickle back of the filters. The shearing force between the surface and the return flow will bring your tank to atmospheric equilibrium in short order. This will be of benefit to your fish and nitrifying bacteria.

You may also wish to add some salt (table salt is fine) to your tank at a dose of about 1 tsp. per gallon. The chloride from the salt will compete with the nitrite (NO2) for the receptors in your fishs's blood and gills, preventing damage. Dose new water in the same manner. After the tank is cycled, discontinue salt addition and regular water changes will return your tank to tap conditions.

In short, once your tank is cycled, the closer you can keep tank water to tap (or source) conditions, the better. Your water chemistry will be more stable, there will be fewer DOC's (dissolved organic carbon - pollutants) and there will be a smaller difference between tap and tank, so water changes will be less stressful.

[JimmyOrangeSeed]

Yea, I use ammo-lock and stress zyme on all my new water so that ammonia isnt toxic.

And I cant get un-filtered water in my house. Everything goes through the water filter in the house and outside has been turned off until the snow melts. I will probably continou to do water changes often for a long time so this wont ever happen again.

Do I want to get my nitrates to zero or is there a certain ammount of "good" nitrates ?

I havent even gotten to vacuum the substrate yet in my Girlfriends tank. I might start some tonight. I wont do too much though, I will try and pace it over a few days so my levels will stay low.

[happychem]

Keep your nitrates below 20 ppm - or no more than 20 ppm higher than your tap NO3 level if you have nitrate in your tap water. Since NO3 is an indicator of the unmeasurable pollutants in your tank (dissolved organic carbon, DOC, in particular), keeping NO3 low means keeping pollutants low, which means healthier fish.