very sudden java fern die off, plz help

[hmt321]

here are tank specs

40 gal

2 20 watt bulbs in a open air top

lights on a timer, on 10 hours a day

no direct sun

fish:
1 6-7" blue gill
5 shiners
1 brushy nose pleco
1 madtom

situation:
about 2 weeks ago i noticed brown splotches on some of my java fern in one specific place in the tank, so i cut the brown spotted leaves back

now pretty much all the java fren on the top half of the tank look the same, the clump in the picture looked fine 10 days ago

see pict
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/hmt321/STB_0127.jpg
ok most of that clump is healthy now look at today
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/hmt321/IMG_0164.jpg

this seems to be spreading

here is a pict from the top during a water change
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/hmt321/IMG_0169.jpg

and here is a pict of one of the leaves
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/hmt321/IMG_0171.jpg

here is a healthy clump of java at the botom of the tank, pict taken today
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/hmt321/IMG_0168.jpg
what is going on here?

plz help

[John N.]

It could be a matter of light intensity and they are wilting underneath the light. But more likely it's a nitrate deficiency. Increasing your NO3 will help prevent this.

Some Java leaves turns brown naturally as they get older, but usually you have plantlets to replace them.

NOTE: you can take better photos by turning off all the lights in the room, turning off the flash, and using the aquarium light for your photos.

-John N.

[hmt321]

well I'm leaning more to light intensity than NO3 (there are many groups of JF in the tank that are fine. only the top ones are effected)
why would this just turn up now? tank has been running since last march same setup???

well i can turn one of the light strips off and see if that helps

should i trim off the dead leaves so the rizume(sp??) can resprout? trim half??

thanks for your help

[John N.]

Well I don't think it's light intensity for this reason. I've had java fern on 3 watts per gallon of light with no problems. It's happening in march now instead of a few months ago, because your plants have increased their growth. More plants will consume more nutrients. So if you aren't adding any nutrients, I think it's safe to assume that they are consuming nutrients that are not there. I think that makes sense, no?

Oh, and trim the dead leaves. And if the rhizome is not dead either and at best green, keep it and see if leaves will resprout.

-John N.

[Aquabum]

I agree with John N.

If it isn't your lights, than it's probably a deficiency. And if it is, it's a severe one.

Have you tested your water for N,P, and Gh? Maybe that can tell you something.

Lissette

[hmt321]

if you cant tell, I'm not a plant guy. my test kit does not test for any of those, but i do 60-70% water change 2-3 times a week. i have a close friend who is an engineer for the water board and he usually lets me know if they monkey with the water (they do that after major storms, Katrina,Ivan) so with that lvl of water turn over (keeping in mind that i add nothing to my tank water for plants) could it still be a nutrient problem,

I was under the impression that water nutrient problems came into play when ppl had heavily planted tanks where they did minimal water changes and had co2 inj and what not.

I'm gonna cut the dead and dieing leaves back and see if it will regrow.

what concerns ma is that it seems to be spreading.

is there a possibility that i have an algae problem????? would algae not start at the top "layer"

thanks again

[John N.]

You're correct. You can grow java in non co2, nutrient added, tanks. I don't see any algae, but I could be wrong.

So this is what I think is happening. If the Java fern in question was at the top of the tank. But 40 watts over 40 gallons is not intense, but it seems like it was close to the top, so it's pretty intense there. I think the light increased photosythesis, and sped up their need for nutrients. As a result it started to die.

Here's a link that might help you with your problem or give to better validate my thoughts. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=11926&highlight=java+brown

-John N.

[hmt321]

ok read that post u linked and i think you are right, ok i raised the water line of the tank up about an inch so these plants are a little deeper, gona go on line and buy a better test kit,

i guess there is no quick fix for this is there, something that i can buy and add to the tank that wont hurt my fish?

thanks for the help

[John N.]

No real quick fix. But water column fertilization could be added for No3 for healthier new growth.

http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp

Purchase 1lb of Potassium Nitrate add maybe 1/8 or 1/16 teaspoon once a week. With your low lighting setup, the plants aren't going to consume alot, so the lower dosage is better. Or you can also purchase Seachem nitrogen from bigalsonline.com.

While your at it, if you ever do decided to with more light and more plants. Consider adding these to your purchase. These last more than a year.

Plantex CSM+b 1 lb.
Potassium Sulfate 1 lb. K2SO4
Mono Potassium Phosphate 1 lb. KH2PO4

Don't worry, java will bounce back. :)

-John N.

[hmt321]

I cut the dead leaves back when i did my water change today and the root seems to be healthy, also there was evadence of new leaves comming out, i pined a buch of sproutlings on the spot.

thanks for your help

[hmt321]

i ordered the Potassium Nitrate, i will try the 1/16 teasopoon, with this hurt my fish? and i assume that i need to redose after my water change, about 24 hours after?

thanks again

[Galaxie]

Just curious, why such heavy water changes?

I have 2 19 watt CFL's over my tall 20g tank....which is quite a bit of light. I do 25% water changes every 2 weeks and add a capful of Fluorapride. My java fern on the bottom has multiple leaves approaching 12-inches.... and one bunch growing right at the top has short leaves, but 12 inch roots. There's a bunch of community fish in there, and I use a cannister filter, so there is almost no evaporation or surface agitation.

[hmt321]

well, i used to have water quality issues (never could get the amonia down) so i got used to doing the bi-weekly waterchanges. I have good filtration now but i kinda got in the habbit, also I am under the impression that more frequent water changes are better (as long as the water is conditioned)

[Galaxie]

Well, java fern is pretty resilient. By the looks of yours, even though the leaves are browning, the roots still look very healthy. They are long and have those bristly hairs which means they are in good condition. Leave some of the browning leaves for a few weeks and see if they sprout seedlings. After most of mine darken, they start spawning seedlings like crazy. I've got too much java fern already.

Someone else may have to chime in about excessive water changes. If your levels are all near zero, there's no reason to change. When nitrate starts building up, its part of their diet. Maybe try backing off on water changes & hold your nitrates around 30ppm.... see if the plants respond. You said you had water problems in the past...since plants feed off that excess ammonia and nitrate, they may be starving. Instead of purchasing stuff, I'd just back off on the water changes. 25%/week is healthy for a normal tank. My tanks with plants get 25% every 2 weeks.

Good luck.