should i do a water change!?

[djmodifyd]

i'm confused
2 out of my 3 lfs's said do a water change, the other one didn't
so i thought i would ask the experts

last week (about 5 days ago) i tested my water with these results
ph 8.2
ammonia: .25
nitrate: 20 ppm
nitrite: 0 ppm

now....5 days later, i tested it again.
i have no fish or anything in there

ph: 8.2
ammonia: 4 ppm
nitrate: 10 ppm
nitrite: .5 ppm

should i just leave my tank? or should i do a wtaer change to get some of those levels down?
i don't have any fish...so i don't have anything to kill in there..(unless some of my bacteria could die?)

thanks for helping an idiot

[RockabillyChick]

ammonia comes from fish waste or a bottle. are you doing a fishless cycle and adding bottled ammonia? if not, then there's got to be something alive in the tank that's rotting to produce ammonia and nitrites......

[djmodifyd]

ammonia comes from fish waste or a bottle. are you doing a fishless cycle and adding bottled ammonia? if not, then there's got to be something alive in the tank that's rotting to produce ammonia and nitrites......

well, it is fishless, with no added ammonia.
it was set up before, then i did a 75% water change and dug into the gravel really well....the water out of the gravel came out clean. and every time i've done a water change since i havn't seen any dirt or grunge come from the gravel.

i have about 50 lbs of lace rock in there...could there be something living on there? i've noticed a bit of white fuzz growing on them?

me be confused :(

[RockabillyChick]

there must be some bacteria or something alive in there if your getting ammonia. was your filter already established? if so, then your good bacteria could be dying and producing ammonia, which the other bacteria are eating and producing nitrites and nitrates.

if you don't have fish in there, then theres no reason to do a water change. but if you plan on putting fish in it, then you want to cycle the tank. best way is to fishless cycle with clear ammonia.

[djmodifyd]

there must be some bacteria or something alive in there if your getting ammonia. was your filter already established? if so, then your good bacteria could be dying and producing ammonia, which the other bacteria are eating and producing nitrites and nitrates.

if you don't have fish in there, then theres no reason to do a water change. but if you plan on putting fish in it, then you want to cycle the tank. best way is to fishless cycle with clear ammonia.

it was established
but i had a major pH crash that i believe killed most of my bacteria. i had a white film covering my heater, glass, filter tubes, and so fourth.
so i believe i'm starting completely over with cycleing

yes...i'm building it an african cichlid tank...so i will be putting fish into it, but i want to get it cycled first and not kill the fishies!

should i do a water change and put clear ammonia in it? or should i leave it and let the ammonia that is already in there start the bacteria collony?
thank you so much for your help!

[RockabillyChick]

if you had your tank crash, just to be safe, i would start over. take everything appart and boil everything you can, scrub the tank with vinegar, replace the filter cartridge, wash out the filter box, boil the gravel or replace it, whatever you want. then you can start with a prestine tank and be sure there's nothing nasty lurking in the corners. then add ammonia to start a fresh cycle. make sure you get clear ammonia. the ingredients should contain NOTHING but "Water, ammonia, and chealating agent" if it contains surfactants or it foams when you shake the bottle, DON'T USE IT. walmart has a bottle for $1 in the cleaning aisle. just read the label.

if your not worried about harmful bacteria or anything in the tank though, then just leave it. 4ppm ammonia is perfect for starting a cycle. but you would still have to "feed" the tank more ammonia once that level starts going down.

[djmodifyd]

ok, thank you!

[djmodifyd]

well, i have noticed my water is getting VERY clear......almost better then it ever looked before (i never actually let my tank cycle when i first got it......)

now that it has been sitting for a week or so....it is alreayd looking better, my bio-wheels have brown bacteria growing on it.....and i don't think i ever saw that on there before.....lol

i'll just let it sit....and try to work it self out, my seachem ammonia alert is on "toxic" the highest it goes......

i hope it works its self out......i'm starting to get anxious about getting some cichlids in there!

[RockabillyChick]

you may want to do a water change if you ammonia is that high, as too much ammonia can kill off your good bacteria too. you want to keep it around 4ppm until it starts to drop on its own, then add ammonia to keep it at 2ppm. then when you get nitrites, wait until they too start dropping. when you can add ammonia up to 2ppm and within 24 hours both your ammonia reading and your nitrite reading are 0, your tank is cycled. then you do a large water change to get the nitrAtes down to decent levels (because they have been building this whole time) and add fish, or keep feeding ammonia to keep the bacteria alive if your not ready to add fish yet.

[Roan Art]

Unless you want to have another pH crash, we need to find out *why* you had one in the first place.

There is no need to clean and bleach everything out and start over. That's pointless and has nothing to do with a pH crash.

What I need are your GH and KH numbers out of your tap. If you don't have a kit, please pick one up. It's more than likely that your pH crashed because your KH is too low and it bottomed out.

Even thought you have a high pH, you may have to add crushed coral to your tank to stablize it. This is another reason why I need those KH and GH numbers.

The ammonia you are seeing probably comes from your tap. Assuming you are using Amquel or Prime or something similar, the chloramines are unbound and revert back to chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine is removed and the ammonia is rendered into a harmless state that is not toxic to your fish but can still be used by your bacteria.

Roan

[djmodifyd]

thanks for the reply's guys
the reason i had a ph crash....is because......well...i'm an idiot and simply over feed them all the time......and then didn't do enough water changed.....so i had alot of rotting food in there.
i don't have a gh/kh test kit...and my lfs is out of them right now. i had thought about getting some crushed coral for the tank....i just put that into the HOB filter right?

yes, i use amquel, but my ammonia is upto 4 ppm (maybe a bit higher) now...

i have chichlid salt in there, and i added a couple tsp of baking soda in there to bring the gh/kh up, BUT i don't have a way to test it to get number. my PH has been holding steady for a week or so now.

just tested water:
ph: steady at 8.2
ammonia: steady at 4 ppm
nitrate: down to 5 ppm from 10 ppm yesterday
nitrite: down to .25 from .5 yesterday

[Roan Art]

thanks for the reply's guys
the reason i had a ph crash....is because......well...i'm an idiot and simply over feed them all the time......and then didn't do enough water changed.....so i had alot of rotting food in there.
Rotting food does not cause a pH crash. Overfeeding does not cause a pH crash. Not doing a water change can *contribute* to a pH crash, depending on how long it was before the water was changed and how low the KH is.

KH is your carbonite and determines how stable your tank is. KH is consumed by natural processes in your tank and will deplete. If the KH hits 0, there is nothing to consume and the bacteria cannot reproduce. If they cannot reproduce they will start to die off. If they die off, well, the cycle starts over.

Currently my tap is 7.4 and my KH runs 1-2. Any dKH of 3 or under needs to be stablized. My pH is not low at all, but the KH is at a dangerously low level. All my tanks are buffered to some degree to prevent crash and add stability.


i don't have a gh/kh test kit...and my lfs is out of them right now. i had thought about getting some crushed coral for the tank....i just put that into the HOB filter right?Yes, but please get the kit or you may crash again. Seriously. How long was it between water changes?


yes, i use amquel, but my ammonia is upto 4 ppm (maybe a bit higher) now...

i have chichlid salt in there, and i added a couple tsp of baking soda in there to bring the gh/kh up, BUT i don't have a way to test it to get number. my PH has been holding steady for a week or so now.The ammonia was there the minute you added water to your tank. That's why you started cycling with no fish or anything ;)

Baking soda will help in the short term. Don't use it for long term. It's not stable. Remember: it's the KH, not the GH that you need to be concerned with. If it crashes when you have a full bioload your tank will start to recycle and you could lose your fish. Especially if you are not home or don't notice if it happens.


just tested water:
ph: steady at 8.2
ammonia: steady at 4 ppm
nitrate: down to 5 ppm from 10 ppm yesterday
nitrite: down to .25 from .5 yesterdayLooking good. Keep up the water changes and don't overdo the baking soda. You really really need to get a KH test kit. Can you order one online?

Roan

[djmodifyd]

Rotting food does not cause a pH crash. Overfeeding does not cause a pH crash. Not doing a water change can *contribute* to a pH crash, depending on how long it was before the water was changed and how low the KH is.

KH is your carbonite and determines how stable your tank is. KH is consumed by natural processes in your tank and will deplete. If the KH hits 0, there is nothing to consume and the bacteria cannot reproduce. If they cannot reproduce they will start to die off. If they die off, well, the cycle starts over.

Currently my tap is 7.4 and my KH runs 1-2. Any dKH of 3 or under needs to be stablized. My pH is not low at all, but the KH is at a dangerously low level. All my tanks are buffered to some degree to prevent crash and add stability.

Yes, but please get the kit or you may crash again. Seriously. How long was it between water changes?

The ammonia was there the minute you added water to your tank. That's why you started cycling with no fish or anything ;)

Baking soda will help in the short term. Don't use it for long term. It's not stable. Remember: it's the KH, not the GH that you need to be concerned with. If it crashes when you have a full bioload your tank will start to recycle and you could lose your fish. Especially if you are not home or don't notice if it happens.

Looking good. Keep up the water changes and don't overdo the baking soda. You really really need to get a KH test kit. Can you order one online?

Roan


thank you so much for your replys
i'll stop by my lfs to see if they have a KH test kit, if not, i'll get one online.


oh, and when my ph crashed....it was probably a month and a half inbetween waterchanges.......and when my gravel vac hit the gravel.....the water turned black :duh:


so, should i do a waterchange today? or just leave it?
thanks!

[Roan Art]

thank you so much for your replys
i'll stop by my lfs to see if they have a KH test kit, if not, i'll get one online.Please, not life threatening anymore now that I know how long it was before you did a water change, BUT if you intend to keep African cichlids, you should really have a KH and GH test kit. They have special needs, as I'm sure you know.


oh, and when my ph crashed....it was probably a month and a half inbetween waterchanges.......and when my gravel vac hit the gravel.....the water turned black :duh:ROFL! No wonder you crashed :) It's very likely then that your KH is 4 or 5 and safe, which is what I thought it might be considering how high your pH is. However, it is still a good idea for a cichlid keeper to have those test kits.


so, should i do a waterchange today? or just leave it?
thanks!WIth ammonia at 4ppm, you NEED to do a water change. Several, in fact. That ammonia must get down to no higher than .5, .25 is better, or you risk your fish. Start doing water changes of 50-60% at 12 hour intervals until you get it under control.

Does the entire tank according to the Amquel bottle's recommendations for 4ppm ammonia. Then add 1 tsp of salt per gallon of water, mixed with a gallon of tank water. You are heading for a huge nitrite spike with ammonia that high and you might as well prepare for it ahead of time.

The Amquel will detoxify the ammonia and the salt will help with the nitrites.

Roan

[RockabillyChick]

roan, he's got no fish in his tank, he's doing a fishless cycle now with the ammonia that's just occouring in his tank

4ppm is the perfect level for a fishless cycle, but you will need to remove some if it goes higher.

[djmodifyd]

ok, i'll do a small water change today
you guys ROCK!
thanks

[Roan Art]

roan, he's got no fish in his tank, he's doing a fishless cycle now with the ammonia that's just occouring in his tank

4ppm is the perfect level for a fishless cycle, but you will need to remove some if it goes higher.You're right about the fishless cycle and not having to do major water changes. I got side-tracked by something else and my brain farted ;)

However, he needs to do water changes to maintain his KH level. He doesn't have a kit, so he has no clue what he's working with and neither do we.

Ergo, djmodifyd, yah, do some small changes and monitor the ammonia to 4ppm.

Sorry about that. Had to do a post about a fish I lost and it really railroaded my brain.

Roan

[djmodifyd]

ok, i got a kh/gh test from my lfs

its the AP GF&KH Test

here are the results:

From Tank:
kh: 10 dKH (10 drops to turn it from blue to yellow...)
Gh: 16 dkh (16 drops to turn it from orange to green...)

From Tap:
kh: 9 dkh (9 drops.....)
gh: 12 dkh (12 drops...)

this good or bad?
water change....yay or nay?

thanks!

[Roan Art]

You're golden.


Tap:
kh: 9 dkh (9 drops.....)
gh: 12 dkh (12 drops...)

Good cichlid water. Don't use baking soda, you certainly don't need it at all. If anything to bring it up to cichlid level, add coral. I'd check in the cichlid forum as I believe there is a cichlid water "recipe" that people use.

Worry about water changes if the KH gets to 4.

Thanks for getting it so fast. I was worried your cycle would stall again and we don't want that.

Roan

[djmodifyd]

You're golden.



Good cichlid water. Don't use baking soda, you certainly don't need it at all. If anything to bring it up to cichlid level, add coral. I'd check in the cichlid forum as I believe there is a cichlid water "recipe" that people use.

Worry about water changes if the KH gets to 4.

Thanks for getting it so fast. I was worried your cycle would stall again and we don't want that.

Roan

no problem......i like gettin things done fast....i hate waiting...but i will for fishy's sake.


so....just leave it and let the ammonia work itself out right? unless it starts getting over 4 ppm?

[Roan Art]

no problem......i like gettin things done fast....i hate waiting...but i will for fishy's sake.


so....just leave it and let the ammonia work itself out right? unless it starts getting over 4 ppm?Yep, so long as there's no fish in there. Check the sticky on Fishless Cycling and go over what Rockabillychick was telling you on how to manage that part. I've never done a fishless cycle so I want to make sure you get the right info. I've always used Bio Spira to cycle with.

Good luck!

Roan

[djmodifyd]

Yep, so long as there's no fish in there. Check the sticky on Fishless Cycling and go over what Rockabillychick was telling you on how to manage that part. I've never done a fishless cycle so I want to make sure you get the right info. I've always used Bio Spira to cycle with.

Good luck!

Roan

ok..will do
thank ya mam!
maybe i'll go see if i can get that Bio Spira stuff at my LFS......

[RockabillyChick]

just make sure that if you use biospira, that you follow the directions. biospira + fishless cycle = badbad.

you need to add the biospira, wait 24 hours, add your FULL STOCK of fish, wait another 24 hours and test the water to make sure its working. there will probably be a small cycle still, but it should be very small. don't do any water changes for at least 48 hours after adding the biospira. have to give the bacteria time to grab onto something so you don't just pour them down the drain with the water.