getting annoyed of ammonia!

[djmodifyd]

Ok, as some of you know, im in the process of cycleing my tank

Its been a little over 2 weeks, and these numbers havn't moved!

ph. 8
ammonia 4
nitrate: 0 (this was at 30, now at 0)
nitrite: 0 (was at .5.....)
kh: 12
gh: 9

i have done 2 water changes on it in this 2 weeks...which i should have, or should not have done...but i did anyway, lol

the nitrate/ite has gone to 0, which is good. but the ammnia has not BUDGED from 4! not up, not down, no where.

my tap water tests 0 for ammonia.

WHAT do i do!?
just wait longer.

i am not adding ammonia to my tank, and it is a fishless cycle.

:rant2:

thanks
alex

[Pufferpoison]

then how are getting Ammonia? did u use bio-spira or what method are you using? becuase u have to keep feeding the bacteria or else it starves to death and no move biofilter????

Also if it is a fishless cycle, really no reason to do water changes at all, since nothing is being harmed from the damage that the ammonia and nitrites do to the fishies :)

[Roan Art]

then how are getting Ammonia? did u use bio-spira or what method are you using? becuase u have to keep feeding the bacteria or else it starves to death and no move biofilter????

Also if it is a fishless cycle, really no reason to do water changes at all, since nothing is being harmed from the damage that the ammonia and nitrites do to the fishies :)Actually, you do need to do water changes during a fishless cycle if your KH drops to 3 or lower.

His is fine and he's monitoring it, but water changes are important if you don't have a large buffer to work with.

djmodifyd,

When was the last time you added any ammonia and how much did you add?

You may want to consider getting a new test kit. IMO yours has to be out to lunch. There is no way there can be ammonia in your tank unless there is a source for it. No fish, no plants, no ammonia in the tap water, no ammonia dosing, no way :)

Roan

[Omega]

There's no need to do water changes during a fishless cycle. In some cases it can even be counter-productive. If the KH drops too low, add baking soda... it's easy.

[hurricanejedi]

Do high nitrates (like 160+ppm) not deter the bacteria from growing? I would think if its toxic for fish it might be toxic for the bacteria..? Thats why I've been doing water changes.

[djmodifyd]

thanks for the reply guys.....
i havn't added any ammonia to the tank....i don't know where it is coming from

it went from 0 to 4, and is stuck there. my seachem ammonia alert card is on "toxic" and if i bring the water to a lfs they test the same....4 ppm

[mishi8]

I'm confused. How are you doing a fishless cycle without adding ammonia? Were you planning on adding a source of ammonia? Are any components of your set up used (for example, used gravel that might still have food/mulm in it)? What kind of conditioner did you use?

[hurricanejedi]

The ammonia is getting in there somehow... Are you reusing a setup? Maybe somethign died in the substrate? For the time being keeping it at 4 is good for the cycle but in the long run you need to know where the ammonia is coming from. That is pretty confusing.

[djmodifyd]

i was going to add ammonia, until it jumped up on its own

It was reused, but it never had an ammonia problem before.

i did a 75% water change and really dug into the gravel. everytime i gravel vac now, nothing comes out of the gravel. i can't find dirt anywhere.

could my lace rock be doing something with it? they have a bit of white fuzz growing on them.

and i'm using amquel water conditioner

[mishi8]

So it could be the used set up...something in there is giving you ammonia. You could try breaking it down and giving it a thorough cleaning and start from fresh.

As well, Amquel may be a problem during fishless cycling. It is possible that, since it "neutralizes" ammonia, that it is not making the ammonia properly available for the biofilter. Additionally, I believe the ammonia alert card does not determine between ammonia and ammonium and will give you a false reading.

According to the Fishless cycling articles I've seen, it's best to use a simple conditioner. You can switch to a product like Amquel or Prime for properly treating chloramines when the fishless cycle process is done and you're ready to add fish...otherwise, it's unecessary to "neutralize" ammonia since it's not affecting any fish.

[Star_Rider]

Mishi 8 alluded to what i was thinking.
if your source water is a municipal supply do they use chloramine??
if so you could get an ammonia reading when the chlorine is neutralized.
could be a false reading.
I'm curious what the effects of amquel are while doing a fishless cycle..how does it affect the bacteria if amquel does indeed neutralize the ammonia..what effect that would have on the bacteria colony you are trying to create.

I would try taking some of your water from your source an ddo a control..just add the amquel to it not in the aquarium and then test.

things that make you go Hmmmmmm

I did a little research and it appears that amquel my hinder or hide the fact your bacteria colony has reached it's potential.
they say that amquel will not harm your bacterial colony but that it won't reach it's potential. I would take that as..don't add amquel if your trying to cycle your tank.

it sounds like a great product but..maybe not when you are trying to establish a cycle...I would still try the control tho

[mishi8]

Yes, if the water is treated with chloramine, then there will be a source of ammonia once the bond is broken (chloramine = chlorine + ammonia). However, I find it surprising that the amount of resulting ammonia would be that high. When I treat my tap water, the ammonia ends up reading between .25 and 1 depending on the time of year, but never as high as 4.

Here is a link to a copy of Chris Cow's Fishless Cycling article (http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=702). It does mention not to use a ammonia sequestering product such as Amquel. :)

[djmodifyd]

ok, well maybe i will do a water change.....and use my basic water conditioner for just chlorine.......
see waht happens

thanks guys!

[rrkss]

Do you know your phosphates? Most tap water has some phosphates but if it does not, you will need to add some to the water either by buying a phosphoric acid based pH lowering product or feeding the tank with a pinch or two of fish food. The bacteria need phosphates to produce ATP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate). Without this crucial compound, you won't see any nitrifying bacteria growth.

[TKOS]

Check with your wate dept and ask if they have chlorine or chloramine in the water. If it is chloramine then Amquel will break the bond and convert the ammonia into less harmful ammonium. Some test kits show ammonium as ammonia. That should ffect bacterial growth, but if there was no starter colony then it can sometimes take awhile for a decent bacterial bed to develope from nothing. Adding some bacteria from some one elses tank (an old filter catridge or some rocks or even a plant) can help get things sped up.

[rrkss]

If you don't feel like calling your water company you can just test the water with a salacylate test (2 different chemicals mixed to generate a result) such as aqua pharm ammonia test. If it reads ammonia, you have chloramines if it does not read ammonia you proabably have chlorine only. A taste test can also be quite accurate as chlorinated water tastes much more acrid than chloramated water.

[Omega]

I used Amquel ammonia neutrilizer and it caused a false positive in my ammonia tester. It took me a while to figure out why I had so much ammonia in my tank. That could be it.

[djmodifyd]

wel...i did a water change today....and my rocks let off ALOT of stuff when i hit them
so i shook them around and got the crap off of them. Then i sucked up all that crap with the gravel vac.

we will see what happens to the ammonia now i guess

[Grayum]

whats the bio media you are using in your filter? Maybe you should think about investing in something very good too hold the bacteria in your filter, something like sera siporax would do it. mine cycled in a week

[Roan Art]

whats the bio media you are using in your filter? Maybe you should think about investing in something very good too hold the bacteria in your filter, something like sera siporax would do it. mine cycled in a week
Seems that is only available in the UK.

It also appears to be designed for mechanical filteration, not biological. Not saying that it won't work for biological, bacteria will colonize on it, but it works better as a mechanical and not something I'd rely on for biological. Eheim Ehfimech is pretty much the same thing.

Eheim Ehfisubstrat and Ehfilav types would be better for biofilteration.

Roan

[Roan Art]

Just a note: standard test tube kits will pick up the ammonia in chloramine whether you use a dechlorinator or not. So if he's using, say the AP test kit, to test the tap water and it has chloramines, it will read as ammonia.

Which test kit are you using, djmodifyd?

Roan

[Roan Art]

There's no need to do water changes during a fishless cycle. In some cases it can even be counter-productive. If the KH drops too low, add baking soda... it's easy.
Disagree.

IME baking soda does not work if you have a pH crash. I went through a whole box. KH would go from 5 to 0 in a matter of hours. The only thing that fixed it was a water change AND baking soda to buffer it up to 5.

Again, IME

Roan

[Omega]

That's strange. I've had completely opposite experiences.

[Roan Art]

That's strange. I've had completely opposite experiences.
Should read this thread and the points made in regards to water changes during fishy and fishless cycling:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62168

Roan

[djmodifyd]

i use AP test tube kits

when i test my water......it hardley test for ammonia though.

i can do a 50 percent water change and do a water test right afterwards (i know will give me incorrect readings....but i wanted to see what would happen)

right after the water chagne, my ammonia is still 4

WTF?

[mishi8]

i use AP test tube kits

when i test my water......it hardley test for ammonia though.

i can do a 50 percent water change and do a water test right afterwards (i know will give me incorrect readings....but i wanted to see what would happen)

right after the water chagne, my ammonia is still 4

WTF?

How does your treated tap water test (before it goes into the tank)?

[djmodifyd]

treated tap water:

0 ppm


grrrrrrrrrrrrr

[mishi8]

treated tap water:

0 ppm


grrrrrrrrrrrrr

How frustrating! There's got to be something in your tank producing that ammonia.

[Roan Art]

Well, I'm stumped.

Send a PM to RTR and/or happychem. Ask them for help. Point them here.

If anyone can figure out what's going on, those two can.

Roan

[djmodifyd]

well.....i MAY have figured it out
i did a water change to day...and yesterday.

BOTH days a lot of crap came off the gravel (stuff that came off the rocks). i thought i had cleaned them well enough before i put them in there. but obviously not.

after today. test right after water change: 4 ppm

4 hours later: 2 ppm

i'll test again tomorrow and the next day to see where it is at.

thanks again for your help guys

[Roan Art]

What did you use to clean the rocks with? Bleach? Or a product that contains ammonia? If so, did you soak them in dechlorinator after you were finished or did you just rinse them in water?

Roan

[TDWagner]

Might be a good idea to remove those lace rocks with the "crap" growing on them. If you remove them and do a big water change, then test for ammonia after an hour or so, that should at least tell you whether or not they are the culprit. You can always put the rock back in if it's not what's causing the problems.

[djmodifyd]

all i did was rinse them off with water....

[Omega]

Should read this thread and the points made in regards to water changes during fishy and fishless cycling:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62168
That thread and those articles only showed that adding baking soda to water raised the TDS, which can be a bad thing depending on the species you're keeping and source water you're using. It says nothing to show baking soda does a bad job of raising KH, when the truth of the matter is that nothing quite comes close. Even the buffering agents used in reef-keeping is pretty much baking soda.

Why does your source water have such a good buffering capacity to begin with? There must be something dissolved in it to make it that way. Whatever that is, it certainly contributes to the TDS.

I'd think that somebody who's finished cycling would do a massive water change before adding fish anyway... if not for the TDS, but for the nitrates.