Flashing/No Symtoms

[Cathy G]

What do you all do when you bring a new fish home, watch him very closely and see flashing? There is no sign of ANYTHING, he looks like a clean fish. He doesn't flash all the time, but enough to cause me wonder if there is anything going on I should deal with. I am taking these steps - do you think I should do anything more?

PraziPro is in his tank water - this should cover many external parasites, flukes, etc.

He is eating mysis shrimp laced with Metronidazole and garlic.

Water is clean (0,0, 10) and I am doing frequent changes...

I know that there are many many opinions about ich and it's ability to live in a dormant stage on a fish. Is this rumour or truth? I've also heard that there is NOTHING you can do to kill off the ich while it is on the fish, is this true? If there is ich in a dormant stage inside this fishes gills, is there anything I can do now? Or do I have to wait until it erupts?

Thanks for all the advice that is so freely given!
(I hate to admit this, but this fish is a male blue ram about 1.5 inches. I bought a big one figuring he has lived longer therefore must not be horribly infected with anything).

Cathy G

[Star_Rider]

Ich while visible on the fish is in the cyst stage and is not treatable in this phase. the ich will sliff off and drop to the bottom of the tank..when it is released it will increase in numbers. eventually hatching to the free swimming stage..it is in this stage the ich is treatable..
there are a lot of treatments..including adding salt to the water..2-3 tbl spn per 5 gallons has been recommended but I see that this varies a bit. also you will want to raise the temp..this will foce the ich to speed up it's incubation cycle (heat can also kill ich 86 degrees is considered a killing temp for ich) you should keep the salt for 14 days (ich cycle) and readd if you continue water changes(recommended) eg remove 5 gallons add 5 gallons treated with salt..
I avoid table salt there are other salts with no iodine or anti caking agents..tho I have also heard that the iodine is not present in a dangerous concentration in table salt. as far as the ich being dormant on the fish..I doubt it..tho there are some fish more suseptible to ich.

you can use chelated copper(copper safe) but I would not recommend using it in anything but a quarantine tank or hospital tank..copper is dangerous to some fish and invertibrates.

[Cathy G]

Hi,
So basically what you are saying is that there is nothing I can do until I see a cyst? (If the flashing is due to ich)
Cathy

[cyberbeer65]

Read this article,it will explain the whole ich issue......

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39759

[kyle3]

i don't think it's ich if there aren't any visible signs of white specs

it sounds to me as tho you're doing a good job on a general treatment and you should continue unless you see ich develop

my guess would be that the change in water chemistry was inicially different enough from what he was used to that it caused some irritation and will subside within a week or so- continuing the treatment you are using will help to prevent any possible secondary infection from the stress of adjusting to a new home

don't worry about something until you have evidence to give you real cause

right now he's got gill irritation and you are treating it

good job. -Kyle

[Star_Rider]

If you don't see white spots, you don't know if it's ich. you're being proactive so keep it up and keep an eye on the fish.

[Cathy G]

Thanks!
Cath

[Cathy G]

Both fish are flashing now - I put in Stress Coat and am still keeping up with water changes. This morning I notice some red patches on one of their sides. I haven't seen ANY white dots, and I've been looking. So, I assume it is a scrape - I saw the fish flash against a rock yesterday.

They have finished the course of Metronidazole that I always give new fish, and they finished their PraziPro.

Other than Stress Coat and clean water, are there anyother suggestions?

Thanks all,
Cathy

A couple of weeks ago, I changed a water source and the new stuff I found out had lots of phosphate in it. Would that bother the fish?

[denali1234]

Rams flash sometimes to impress a mate. Doesn't mean anything. Careful of adding medication that may not be needed, it causes the fish a lot of stress. My male and female ram "flashed" for weeks until they got to know each other, now no more flashing. Platies flash as well for no reason.

[Rbishop]

Cayhy G...can you explain in more detail what "change water source" and "lots of phosphate" means?


Thanks.

[Cathy G]

Well I used water from where my husband works. Our city has well water and it is very hard. My husband works in Milwaukee and their water comes from Lake Michigan. It is soft water and after treating for chlorines, etc I used that water in a water change...
Lots of brown sludge later ... we bought a phosphate kit and tested the tank and Milwaukee water for phosphates, sure enough, they are off the chart high on phosphate...
So, yesterday I did another water change using RO with Kent's RO Right. This is what I used to do before trying the other water.

I studied my fish this morning for quite a while, she is breathing faster, clamping her fins a bit and flashing alot on the rocks in the tank. So I went ahead and am treating with Maracide for parasites and Maracyn (Erythromiacin sp) for potential secondary infections. Her skin/scales look 'filmy' like something is there. I chose these 2 meds because they are supposed to be ok for plants, will not hurt the bio filter and because they can be used together.

The whole tank is getting treated and I'll report any success or failures as we go along. I wanted to catch this early before their immune systems get too weak to fight anything off.

I also found a very strange stinky blob in the back of the tank. Not a fish, they are all present and accounted for. It was rather solid, a light color, the size of a marble and it was covered in algae. Weird, huh? Perhaps a huge snail grew in my tank and came in on my new anubias and I never saw it? Then it died? Don't know, there was no shell if it was a snail. (I did use Potassium P to sterilize my plants before adding them.)

Anyway, that is the scoop as of the momment. Thanks for any help you can offer!

Cathy

[rrkss]

Filmy sounds like excess slime production. Do you see any red streaks. Sounds like a unicellular parasite. Trichondella (sp?) or maybe Costia. Trichondella is probably the most effective parasite when it comes to making a fish flash. You can continue the Maracide since you started it. Finished the full treatment regime explained in the instructions. If that does not work (after the full treatment is completed), do a 50% waterchange and add activated carbon. Then you can either do a MG + Formalin treatment or salt treatment. If its Costia then you will need a MG + Formalin since Costia is known to thrive in 9 teaspoons of salt per gallon and higher.

[Cathy G]

Uh, what is MG?
Cathy

[Cathy G]

Oh duh, malachite green...
Cathy

[daveedka]

A couple of things for clarification. Ich as with most external parasites will attach to the gills more easily than the exterior of the fish. The gills are largely unprotected and an excellent source of nutrients (Via Blood) so it's usually the first and easiest point for a parasite to attack. This is not a dormant stage, and is really no differnet in any way than visible ich on the outside skin of a fish. It's just not easy to see the parasite attached to the gills. MAny fish build a good resistance to ich attacks, and depending on species many were pretty resistant to begin with. So essentially when the ich swimmers hatch and go looking for a host the fish wards them off at every point except the gills. It only takes one to continue the life cycle so ich survives at relatively low levels indefinately in a tank. Then if for some reason the fish are stressed or weakened ich can suddenly gain the uper hand and appear from "no where" into a full blown visible outbreak.

The natural flashing behavior of some cichlids can usually be sorted out. Flashing due to gill irritation is random. Flashing over territorial or breeding behavior is specific to proximity of other fish and is usually accompanied by other behavior patterns. For instance My firemouth will flare at my Oscar, if the Oscar BAcks away the firemouth will flash a couple of times to show his "percieved" dominance. If they actually fight, they will both Flash between wrestling matches. At no other time do these two fish ever exibit Flashing behavior.

Prazi will definately handle Flukes IME. I do not know if it will handle ich as claimed, Metradonizole will handle a wide array of internals, but IME will not handle ich or most external parasites. Both Prazi and Met are in my opinion excellent preventative measure because neither of them causes any stress that I can see on fish or other tank inhabitants. Since there is little to no risk to your fish, using them in the process of elimination is a good Practice In my mind.

Flashing is most often attributed to ich simply because ich is a highly common cause. Anything that irritates the gills will produce Flashing. I usually start with Water quality checks, and then move on to ICH (because it is so common) and then go on to the less common possibilities like Flukes and Velvet. Remember that velvet generally works quickly and is very fatal in heavy oputbreaks. Flukes are the opposite in that they are slow, and really are not often fatal themselves. Flukes will weaken a fish and let other things like fungus or bacteria overcome the fish. this makes flukes easier to work with but harder to identify as the problem.

The last thing I would say is that the Product Stress coat could be your entire problem. I used the stuff for years, and aside from being an effective dechlorinator it has no merit in my opinion. The slime it puts into the tank (Aloe) does nothing but irritate and pollute IMHO. Aloe will not help your fish. Aloe is a moisturizer, and most fish do not have issue with dry skin. any film on the gills will irritate a fish. Any time you use more than the basic dose needed to neutralize Chlorine, you will see some sort of negative side effect. Back off on the stress coat as much as you can, or maybe switch to something like Prime or Amquel plus and see if that eliminates your problem. Stress coat is fine in small quantities as a dechlorinator, but the rest of the claims it makes are Bunk as far as my experience goes.

HTH
Dave

[kyazh]

Im curiouse as to what you guys meant by "flashing" (noob yes yes i kno lol)

[Cathy G]

Flashing is an action - looks like a dive bomb swoop in one direction or another and the fish does this to scratch himself/herself. They like launch themselves and change direction at the very last to rub along the edge of a rock or plant.
Cathy

[Cathy G]

Hey all,

The tanks has been on the combo of Maracide - which has malachite green, and maracyn - which has erythromycin. This is the 5th day, the last dose of the maracide was added today. My fishes stopped flashing and showing any stress on day 3. I NEVER saw any ich spots! My female ram still has a red patchy area, but I am fairly confident that that is an injury from flashing way hard on a rough rock. (I happened to see this)

The temp is a 82, this is a planted tank of sorts - everything is removable, anubias etc. My water parameters are still good, though cloudy from the maracyn. Geesh, I think my fishes are getting ready to spawn in all that mess. they are eating very well.

My question, the directions don't say how long to treat. If it was ich, and I saw no spots and was looking carefully, I suppose it is possible that the parasite dropped out of the gill area, reproduced in the gravel and hit the water with the meds in only to die. However, if this was ich, I had better do a water change and continue with the treatment to make sure all is killed for good.

If however, this was something else, chilodinella or trichodina, I have no idea when to stop the medicines. What do you all think? I'm of a mind to water change, and do another 5 days...

Any advice would be appreciated!
Cathy