Questions about my new 40gallon

[Anaxus]

I just set up a 40 gallon tank with a eclipse 3 filter system, and will start a fishless cycle soon.
I have a few questions.
1) I don't have access to any fully cycled aquariums to use to help with my cycle, will bacteria still form?
2) I didn't add any florite to the botton of the tank, will this keep me from using live plants later if I want to start switching out the plastics for live?
3) I have come up with this list of fish for my tank. Does it looks ok? What would you suggest me changing.
(1) bristlenose pleco
(1) golden chinese algae eater
(3) Octinicus
(6) Neon Tetras
(1) Giant Danio
(2) rummynose tetras
(2) Corydoras catfish
(1) Red Tail Shark
(3) Clown loaches
To me it seems like I choose to many bottom dwellers, what do you think? Also is this too many fish?

Thanks in advance for your help

[Faramir]

Originally posted by Anaxus
I just set up a 40 gallon tank with a eclipse 3 filter system, and will start a fishless cycle soon.
I have a few questions.
1) I don't have access to any fully cycled aquariums to use to help with my cycle, will bacteria still form?

Yes, but more slowly.


2) I didn't add any florite to the botton of the tank, will this keep me from using live plants later if I want to start switching out the plastics for live?

No. We don't even have fluorite in this country and we can grow plants. My cabomba is growing like a weed in an inch of ordinary gravel. However, if I tried Crypts or Aponogetons, I imagine I'd run into difficulties.


3) I have come up with this list of fish for my tank. Does it looks ok? What would you suggest me changing.
(1) bristlenose pleco
(1) golden chinese algae eater
(3) Octinicus
(6) Neon Tetras
(1) Giant Danio
(2) rummynose tetras
(2) Corydoras catfish
(1) Red Tail Shark
(3) Clown loaches
To me it seems like I choose to many bottom dwellers, what do you think? Also is this too many fish?


Well, if were my tank I'd drop the chinese algae eater and the Red tailed shark - both may become too aggressive IME.

Up the number of Corys.

Danios are shoaling fish. Make it a small group.

I'd lose either the neons or the rummynose and have a decent sized group of one or the other.

By Octinicus, do you mean Ottos?

[NJ Devils Fan]

Yea, the rummynoses and cories like to be in schools. The Shark will eat the neons because they are so small.

[ChilDawg]

More Clowns would not be a bad idea, either. They get really big, though, so they could add a lot of stress on your filtration.

Otocinclus are pretty delicate and need algae or supplemental feeding from their first introduction to your tank. They also don't mind being kept in bigger schools and do a very credible job of taking out the algae in your tank. Your bristlenose may out-compete them and cause their demise.

You definitely need some more of the shoaling fish, and Corydoras are included in that category. Your Cories should ideally be kept in groups of 6+. The same would go for the Ottos, Giant Danios, Neons, and Rummy-Noses. I think that too many Giant Danios would be detrimental to water quality, so I would have to say that a school of Neons and one of Rummies would be your best bet.

I think that you have too many bottom-dwellers, so, actually, getting rid of the Clowns and the RTBS may help to alleviate that problem. Also, the CAE should go...he will get to be 10" and will attack and kill some of the lovely fish from your tank due to gradually increasing cantankerousness.

Best of luck!!!

[Anaxus]

Thanks for the advice
Here is what I came up with
1-bristlenose pleco
7- neons
6- cories
6- other type of tetras(either rummynose or lemon)

Or should I remove one shoal of them and add more to the remaining two?

[ChilDawg]

That one is up to you. The shoals you have in your plans now would be sufficient for tetra happiness, so it becomes a matter of aesthetics and if you like behavioral contrasts or just want one big school of similar tetras with similar behaviors. Those are questions which only you can answer, and that is part of the fun of fishkeeping! :)

[JSchmidt]

First of all, good for you for cycling fishlessly. Given the fish you're interested in, that's a particularly good choice. The ammonia oxidizing bacteria are everywhere; you couldn't keep them out of your tank if you wanted! Since you'll be starting without any starter colony, you might try two things. First, leave the covers off your tank, to facilitate bacteria finding their way to your tank. Second, crank the heat up (during fishless cycling only) to 84 degrees or so. Those may help hasten things a bit...

As for your most recent list of fish, I think you could safely double the number of neon tetras while keeping constant the others. That wouldn't be a heavily stocked tank.

Good luck and have fun!

Jim

[Anaxus]

Thanks for the info. I'll try leaving the lid open in the tank. I just noticed I only had a 100 watt heater so I went and picked up a 200 watt and set it to 85 degrees.
The only thing I am worried about is my tank is a 40 gallon Tall. It's about the same width and length as a 30 gallon. Would this also effect the number of fish?
Also I am thinking of maby instead of lemon or rummynose tetras and using zebra danios instead. I still have weeks untill I finish the cycle to make my decission

[ChilDawg]

If the footprint is the same as a 30 gallon, then it must be stocked as if you were stocking a 30 gallon. Good catch.

[Anaxus]

Oh I see. Taking Jscmidts recomendation of doubling the neons for 40 galllon, would:
1-bristlenose pleco
6- neons
6- cories
6- Zebra danios
still be considered overstocked for my tank?

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by Anaxus
Oh I see. Taking Jscmidts recomendation of doubling the neons for 40 galllon, would:
1-bristlenose pleco
6- neons
6- cories
6- Zebra danios
still be considered overstocked for my tank?

I think you could change the above list to include 12 neons and you'd be OK. Personally, I think neons look much, much better in larger groups. Even with a dozen neons, you still have a resonable bioload.

Jim

[Anaxus]

JSchimdt is that still taking into account that I have to stock like I had a 30 gallon?

[JSchmidt]

Yeah, I don't think six additional neons will add that much to your bioload. Neons aren't particularly messy fish, they don't eat that much...

I'm not sure I fully agree with the assumption that you have to stock like a 30, anyway. The footprint is important, but part of your consideration is the volume of water in which wastes, etc. will be diluted. With the fish you have, that's as important a consideration, I think, as footprint. The footprint is more important with territorial fish (e.g., many cichlids) but is less of a concern with schooling/shoaling fish. Even a 30 has plenty of swimming room for the fish we're discussing, and that bioload is perfectly fine for a 40g tank.

HTH,
Jim

[ChilDawg]

I thought that level of dissolved gases was directly proportional to footprint, and that was why stocking levels had to be adjusted to take that into account. But, since these are smaller fish, I think that your numbers would be okay, even if you threw in the extra half-dozen neons.

[JSchmidt]

I think level of dissolved gases is probably dependent on other variables, too, like the amount of surface disruption and the extent to which there is current in the tank. Also, the presence of biowheel or trickle filter would also have a role. Footprint is part of the equation, but only one part.

Bottom line, on which we both agree, is that the stocking level would be well within the limits of a reasonably stocked tank.

Jim

[val]

if you haven't been welcomed yet, let me formally welcome you to Aquaria Central, home of the greatest number of neons on the net:)

I do say neons, because I would echo JSchmidt's advice that you double the amount of neons you have in the tank. They are a striking fish, but they are quite small and six will look lost in your tank. But after we have encouraged you to add more, let me also say that you should add them slowly. I've never fishless cycled, so I speak from ignorance here, which is supposed to allow you to add a full bioload all at once, but when you're starting out with new fish, you need to be able to see how your fish react on a normal, everyday basis, so then you'll be able to see when your fish are acting out of character. If you get 6 cories all at once, you'll have trouble (OK, I have trouble, but I have to assume I am not alone) differentiating between them. I'd get three to start with and say all your danios. Observe your tank, have fun. Then after a couple of weeks, add the tetras and then add your cories.

I have a 55g tank with 35 cardinals and 8 emperors. Obviously I cannot keep the cardinals separate anymore, but I recognize my emperors and can differentiate between them.

Note, I am aware that this advice is not necessarily applicable if you have territiorial fish, say some of the gouramis and cichlids. In that case, you'd be better off adding all of one species at a time so that everyone gets a chance to find their space.

BTW, I think the choice of danios will be more interesting than your original choice of other tetras, but that's just me...

Val

[JSchmidt]

I respectfully disagree with Val's advice. One of the advantages of fishless cycling is the growth of a bacterial colony sufficient to support a full bioload. If you do that, then allow much of the biofilter to die off from lack of food (because you're not fully stocking the tank), you'll risk exposing the tank inhabitants to mini-cycles everytime you add more fish. In that case, you'll not only see changes in fish behavior due to the addition of new tankmates, but also due to the presence of ammonia/nitrite in the water.

If there are health concerns (fish that need to be quarantined first), you might not want to add all the fish at once. But if that's not the case, I think you're much better off adding everyone at once.

Jim

[Anaxus]

I will probably add all the fish at once except maby the bristlnose (going to wait till some algae is formed, but might end up adding it since some should have formed during the cycle) Do LFS ever try and stop you from adding a full bioload at once?

[JSchmidt]

Very few LFSs will ever do anything to discourage a purchase. Some more conscientious places my try to limit your initial stocking, but if you let them know about your fishless cycle most won't have a problem.

Re: your bristlenose pleco, you can feed him algae wafer if there isn't enough algae growing in the tank. I've almost always found that plecos don't get enough if they're forced to graze.

Jim

[superstein61]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Very few LFSs will ever do anything to discourage a purchase. Some more conscientious places my try to limit your initial stocking, but if you let them know about your fishless cycle most won't have a problem.

Jim


Hey Jim - well actually the main LFS I frequent would try and discourage your purchase if you were buying too many fish at once or stocking a new tank too heavily. But I agree - thats the exception rather than the rule.

The one thing you may want to be prepared for though is the strange looks you may get when you mention a fishless cycle. Even if your store is knowledgeable, it seems few have heard of this method (based on my observations dealing with 4 different places)