substrateless tank ok?

[somefinnfishy]

I have one of my 29s I want to pull all the gravel out of.
Reason have a few fancy plecos want to feed better.I use a lot of live black worms and bottom feeder pellets-tabs they all just get lost in the substrate.If I have a glass bottom I could feed them and a few mellow bottom feeders in the same tank without so much compition.
BTW the tank is on a central tank filter system with a nice sump and three other planted 29s so not so woried about the cycle or any amonia spikes.
Good idea or bad?

[ChilDawg]

Fine idea, but paint the (outside) bottom of the tank. I am glad to see that you have given good consideration to easily cleaning the tank, but you must remember to provide a whole bunch of material to which biological filtration components may adhere.

[somefinnfishy]

Got two albino bristle nose and a royal in there (royal 3" brisstles 3")will add to bigger tanks later.
My sump has more than plenty of bio area and the other tanks are jungles of live plants+I will stuff that tank with tons of drift wood mounted to slate also have made some nice slate caves for them to hide.

[Aquaskilz]

Normally I would say bad idea. But being that you stated your sump has good biological filtration, I guess it would be OK. If you are concerned with the food getting lost in the substrate, try feeding with algae waffers. There big enough that they wont fall btween the gravel.

[BluEyes]

as long as you have good biofiltration, you're good to go. Most of the bacteria are in the filter anyways, where they get good water flow.

As for painting the bottom, I'd say that's optional. Most of the time, the bottom glass will look like a mirror anyways, because of the angle you're looking at it. Only when you're looking at it mostly straight-down will you see through the glass.

another idea to improve feeding w/o removing the gravel would be to get a piece of slate (like they anchor driftwood to) and drop the food on that - the plec will soon figure it out.
Something to try, anyways - and a heck of alot easier than removing the gravel!

[ChilDawg]

I was thinking about the feeling of security for the tank's occupants when I said to paint the bottom, and I stand by that. My fish were much, much happier when I gave them gravel in their temporary winter break tank at home...they were less jumpy, more active, and they came to see me when I fed them rather than run away from the big hand.

[somefinnfishy]

I was allso thinking of useing one of those rock looking reptile water-food dishes

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by ChilDawg
I was thinking about the feeling of security for the tank's occupants when I said to paint the bottom,

doh! didn't think of that - good point! Hey, you could just mask off the inside of the stand, and paint it in place...

The reptile food dish sounds like a very nice idea - might blend in a bit better than a slab of slate...

[somefinnfishy]

But if I dont paint the bottom the bright light on top would light the fry tank under it:confused:

[thom336]

only thing that concerns me about this painted tank base is the reflection of light from it, or would it reflect more if it wasnt painted? bottom less tanks unfortunately turn out to look more dirty than tanks with a substrate...but on a centralised system that shouldnt be a problem.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by thom336
only thing that concerns me about this painted tank base is the reflection of light from it, or would it reflect more if it wasnt painted? bottom less tanks unfortunately turn out to look more dirty than tanks with a substrate...but on a centralised system that shouldnt be a problem.

It would reflect more light painted. All the light reflected by the glass, plus the (now colored) light reflected off the paint on the bottom

Yes, they can look more dirty - you've gotta scrub algae on the bottom now!

[spikekillifish]

If you are just starting or can remove your fish and water from the tank. This might work for you. Cover your aquarium's bottom with wads of silicone along your tanks bottom and spread with a really wet paint brush. Then drop in your gravel and press it in a little. Make sure the layer of silicone is thick enough. After drying time (I added water in 24 hours) Siphon the loose garavel that did not adhere to the bottom. It looks pretty good, better than a glass bottom I think.

[spikekillifish]

PS. Don't paint the bottom unless you can let it cure for a month at least. The paint whether it is oil base or acrylic will leach chemicals and not adhere properly in water. Sometime down the road you wil have a real mess. Unless someone makes an aquarium paint I would not do it.

[125gJoe]

I don't like the way an aquarium looks without some kind of substrate. I've seen many Discus tanks that were just glass walls and water. Those fish were very skittish...... My opinion is that fish need at least some kind of a secure area. Maybe a few rocks in a bare bottom tank would help..

[somefinnfishy]

I think the Idea was to paint the under side of the tank spikekillfish:) But like the glued gravel Idea:cool:
No it wont be empty at all.I have a few huge poted(4"teracota) anubis nanas.Allso will build a large multi level slate center piece.The to enhance opon that some nice drift wood pieces with moss attached.The only thought was for the bottom feeders could have acsess to 100% of the bottom.The royal likes live blackworms and wont come up to any kinda feeder.+I would like to pair off and try to breed my albino pushbrooms.
As for fish some rams a cory or two.

[Gumby7]

So you like the look of a bare bottomed tank (which looks like a mirror when viewed from the front or side) but want to make the fish feel more secure?

Stick photos or photocopies of gravel substrate to the underside of the tank from the outside. You shouldn't be able to see it but your fish certainly will.

(The silicon idea might work but you'll see mostly silicon and may bust the tank bottom)

Gumby

[spikekillifish]

(The silicon idea might work but you'll see mostly silicon and may bust the tank bottom)

This is simply not true. The silicon will not cause the bottom of your tank to break. This method is commonly used by advanced hobbiests and is recomended for keeping small Darters (http://www.millevolte.com/nativefish24.html)and the like. If done the right way the silicon will become almost unnoticeable. You can mix in larger rocks as well.

[BluEyes]

Just curious, where did the theory that you'd burst the tank bottom come from?

[spikekillifish]

I think the Idea was to paint the under side of the tank spikekillfish But like the glued gravel Idea

OOPS! I need to read more carefully so I don't look like an idiot.:(

[Gumby7]

Originally posted by BluEyes
Just curious, where did the theory that you'd burst the tank bottom come from?

I may have completely misunderstood but here's what I thought you meant and why it was problematic.

1) Smear outside bottom of tank with silicone.
2) Attach gravel.

If you did this its possible the tank would be bearing on some of the gravel creating stress points and cracking the bottom. If your bottom is sufficently recessed then it shouldn't be a problem. It really depends on the tank and stand design, which is why I wanted to raise the point.

Also, I think this arrangement will show mostly silicone from inside the tank as you smeared the outside bottom and stuck gravel in it.

(However if you are doing this on the INSIDE of the tank I don't see any purpose what so ever.)

Gumby

[spikekillifish]

The aquarium silicone and gravel is placed on the inside of the tank with the gravel covering and sticking to the silicone. This is a proven method used by many and disclosed in books, articles, and the like. I will locate one and post it later.

[slipknottin]

Why not tile the bottom?

[spikekillifish]

Doing the inside gives you a lot of options. You can start by placing larger rocks then work your way down sprinking the finest gravel last. This way you can have a great looking tank that is great for bottom feeders and easy to siphon. This method also works well for taking on digging cichlids. Some larger cichlids however may eventually rip out some rocks and gravel.

[thom336]

i thought the idea here was a substrateless tank for plecos. so where did the silicon and tile ideas come from? bear in mind that the tank below needs to get light...

[spikekillifish]

I think he was first concerned with losing food in the substrate for his bottom dwellers. The lighting of his fry tank below came later in the thread.

[thom336]

i know, i was just saying that the tile idea wouldnt work because of the lighting situation.

[slipknottin]

If you reread the responses, he doesnt want to light the fry tank beneath.

[somefinnfishy]

No the big concern is uneaten food.Those live worms crawl down and you never see them again.Also the ability to shiphon off the waste in like 30 seconds so I can do It daily.I have a piece of slate that fits if I trim it a bit for the bottom.
DIY tip to cut soft rock turn a plywood blade backwards in a circular saw go slow and this is the one time you realy have to wear those safety gogs.Personally I use my concrete sideing blade:D

[thom336]

hold on...in the end are we in agreement that the substrateless tank would work, whichever way is decided to go about it?

[somefinnfishy]

At my work we keep 200 bare tanks and about the same with UGF setups the bare tanks have less losses than the graveled ones.I just know the plecos love the live black worms and will munch for hours if they can get them in a pile in the corner.I have the royal and now three albino brissle nose I would like to breed someday.Now the albinos are 3-4" anyone know what size they will breed at?