So I just tested the water for the first time...

[InvaderJim]

Here are the results:

pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nirates - 160
High Range pH - ~ 8.3
Temperature - 83F

The Nitrates are extremely high!! Any reasons why, and how can I go about fixing this?

[liv2padl]

the best way to lower your nitrate level is water changes. that said though, a drastic reduction in nitrates 'can' cause significant stress in fish .. deal with this by doing MANY, small changes (perhaps 20 percent) every other day until you've gotten the NO3 level down to about 10 ppm or so. check your tap water for nitrates as well, to determine whether or not some of your problem may be inherant.

[mduros]

Here are the results:

pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nirates - 160
High Range pH - ~ 8.3
Temperature - 83F

The Nitrates are extremely high!! Any reasons why, and how can I go about fixing this?Yikes! Nitrates are high! Critical in fact! I'd do more than a 50% water change NOW! Sounds like your tank may be a little overstocked, eh? How many fish do you have? Also, live plants help keep nitrates in check, too. I'm not the most knowledgeable, but at least do the WC until you hear back from others.
Take care,
Mary.

[InvaderJim]

I tested the tap water, and purified water and neither show any nirates.


The tank only has 8 fish in it. My pleco died this morning I believe it was due to the extremely high nirates. There are also no live plants in the tank.

[YuccaPatrol]

Definitely get on this right away.

If it was my tank, I would do a 75% water change immediately, with a thorough gravel vacuuming. Then I would do a 50% change every day until nitrate was back on track.

I personally freak when nitrates are 20 or above, but that is just me and I do a LOT of water changes.

[InvaderJim]

Alright I will do a 50% right now and see what it does to the levels. I just vaccumed the entire tank yesterday. Do you suggest I do it again while the water level is down? Will the water change affect any of the other chemistry in the tank?

[mduros]

Alright I will do a 50% right now and see what it does to the levels. I just vaccumed the entire tank yesterday. Do you suggest I do it again while the water level is down? Will the water change affect any of the other chemistry in the tank?I just read your other post. Is this a new set up? You changed the gravel, which is good, it looked like your old gravel had some glass based gravel in it. Pretty, but I don't think the safest thing for your fish. Are you using drops to remove chloramine/chloride? Did you use any chemicals to jump start the bacteria production? If your tank is a new set up it takes awhile to cycle, and water parameters are best controlled by frequent partial water changes. The water changes will not effect the formation of the beneficial bacteria.
Mary.

[InvaderJim]

The tank has been setup for a while. It wasn't taken very good care of so I'm not sure how the water tested before I changed some of it and vaccumed the bottom out. I haven't changed the gravel yet. I had wanted to change it to sand, but I haven't done so yet because others set to wait a little bit. Should I go ahead and change it with something else?

I don't have any drops that I've been using, and I haven't used any chemicals to jump start the bacteria cycle either.

I'm in the process of changing the water now.

[InvaderJim]

50% water change and the nitrates are still dangerously high? Any other suggestions?

[mishi8]

I tested the tap water, and purified water and neither show any nirates.


The tank only has 8 fish in it. My pleco died this morning I believe it was due to the extremely high nirates. There are also no live plants in the tank.

Did your pleco die before or after your water change? How often had you been changing the water?

[mduros]

I don't have any drops that I've been using, and I haven't used any chemicals to jump start the bacteria cycle either. Get some drops that remove chloramine/chloride from your water before putting it in the tank. They are inexpensive and necessary.

And on the gravel, I would change it out since you want to and go ahead and start a cycle, especially since your nitrates are so screwed up. But get some drops asap, and do another water change afterwards.

[InvaderJim]

Did your pleco die before or after your water change? How often had you been changing the water?

The pleco died before the water change. I changed a little bit of water the day before but not a lot. The water was pretty much never changed before I got it.


Get some drops that remove chloramine/chloride from your water before putting it in the tank. They are inexpensive and necessary.

And on the gravel, I would change it out since you want to and go ahead and start a cycle, especially since your nitrates are so screwed up. But get some drops asap, and do another water change afterwards.

I will take a trip to the LFS again and get some drops and new gravel. Any suggestions as to what kind I should look for? Something like I already have or less rocky?

So just take everything out of the tank, change out the gravel, then let it cycle? What about the fish?

[Roan Art]

DO NOT CHANGE OUT THE WATER IN LARGE QUANTITIES OR VACUUM THE GRAVEL IN AN OTS TANK!

If you suddenly change out large quantities of water in an OTS tank or vacuum the gravel and stir up more crud, you can send the fish into osmotic shock and kill them.

Changes to the water chemistry MUST be done slowly or you risk *all* the fish.

Please read RTRs articles on OTS and treating OTS:

http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/small/ots.html

http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/otswater.html

I'm sorry to yell, but this is important and we don't want to kill the fish :(

Roan

[InvaderJim]

Oops...well the fish seem to be doing alright right now.

Would it be easier just to take the tank completley apart and clean everything? Or should I slowly just clean the water? I've already done a 50% water change so I can't go back.

How can I tell if my fish have gone into shock?

[Drekkyk]

Continue with every other day 25% water changes, starting in 3 days. (To allow the fish to adjust to the shock of the initial 50% water change) When Nitrates reach acceptable levels, do 30-50 % water changes weekly. Once the nitrates are in order, vaccuum the 25 % of the gravel during your weekly water changes. Also pull out 25% of the decor and clean. Once you have done the whole tank, decor cleaning can resume at 3 month intervals.


*note- This is my opinion based on what I have read on the boards. It is not something I have actual experience with. Take a board veteran's advice over my humble opinion! (hmm..so why did I post? I guess I just like to talk)

[Roan Art]

Oops...well the fish seem to be doing alright right now.You're very lucky. A lot of people who do a massive change like that on an OTS tank lose most of their fish.


Would it be easier just to take the tank completley apart and clean everything?No. Read the articles I linked. It's not just your tank that has OTS -- Old Tank Syndrom -- but your fish have it as well. They've been swimming in water that has the consistancy of setting jello, for the most part. If you dump them in "clean" water the shock can kill them. Fish adapt to changing water conditions by means of osmoregulation -- the ability to change their bodies in accord with the change in water. When a tank gets loaded with pollution like this, they lose their ability to change, to adapt. If you throw them in fresh water, they go into shock and die because they can't change their bodies to account for the difference between the water they were in and the new water.

FWIW the differences between the new and old water is usually first seen in the pH, which is usually lower in an OTS tank because it's so far from the source water. That's where the "pH Shock" myth comes from.


Or should I slowly just clean the water? I've already done a 50% water change so I can't go back.
Just continue on what you are doing, but slow down on the changes.

Do 25% every day for the next two days, then step up to 50%.

Did you already vacuum the gravel? If yes, was that before or after the pleco died? I'm guessing before, because that would account for his sudden death.

Don't touch the gravel for now, just get the water changed out. Slowly.

Roan

[liv2padl]

exactly ... as i said above
the best way to lower your nitrate level is water changes. that said though, a drastic reduction in nitrates 'can' cause significant stress in fish .. deal with this by doing MANY, small changes (perhaps 20 percent) every other day until you've gotten the NO3 level down to about 10 ppm or so.

[Roan Art]

How can I tell if my fish have gone into shock?
IME most die immediately. Boom. Gone.

I don't know about what the other symptoms may be because I've usually caught someone before they've done a massive water change. Those I didn't catch had their fish die very shortly after the water change -- about an hour.

This is a question for RTR. I hope he sees this and can tell us what they symptoms of osmotic shock are.

In the meantime, I'll go and research and see what I can find out on my own.

Kay?

Roan

[Roan Art]

exactly ... as i said above
Nod, yep, you did.

Roan

[InvaderJim]

Sorry about that, Everyone was telling me something slightly different...So it's my fault. It's been an hour or more since the water change and the fish seem fine, so I believe I got lucky.

I'll do the 25% for the next 2 days like you said, and see how it goes.

Yes I vaccumed the gravel before, so you are indeed right about the pleco. :(

Thanks for all the help so far!

[UncaBret]

There are also no live plants in the tank.
Plants would definitly help, IMO.

[IceH2O]

The best advice is take your time. My Nitrates were thru the roof. It took me 9 days of daily water changes to get it to 20 ppm doing 25% for the 1st 3 or 4 days and then 33% for the other 5 or 6.

My tank was also overstocked but since I've seperated everyone into 2 bigger tanks and am in the process of making the 75 gallon a heavily planted tank. The 55 will take longer since its not My tank as much as my wifes tank.

[mduros]

Sorry about that, Everyone was telling me something slightly different...So it's my fault. It's been an hour or more since the water change and the fish seem fine, so I believe I got lucky.

I'll do the 25% for the next 2 days like you said, and see how it goes.

Yes I vaccumed the gravel before, so you are indeed right about the pleco. :(

Thanks for all the help so far!Hey Invader. Nope. Not your fault at all! There's many of us at different levels of experience on this board, and we all mean well though, not all of us know what we are talking about all the time... ME!!! :D You will learn who the more seasoned people are, and they are not shy about stopping BIG mistakes. Sorry I almost steered you down the wrong path. My mistake! Thanks, guys!
Take care,
Mary.

P.S. However, in the future sometime once your tank is stable, I would change out that gravel if it contains glass chips. I once tried it as a teenager and it cut my hands sometimes, so I can imagine what it can do to the fish.

[Roan Art]

Sorry about that, Everyone was telling me something slightly different...So it's my fault. It's been an hour or more since the water change and the fish seem fine, so I believe I got lucky.Not your fault. It's no one's fault except whomever was looking after the tank before you. It's not fair to put you in this type of position at all. To put it bluntly, it really sucks to have to clean up someone else's mess.

Everyone has your best interests at heart and the advice given was good for everything but this particular situation. OTS isn't something you can attack aggressively, and it's about the only thing that can't be fixed with massive water changes.

Believe me, I feel like an donkey's behind for that "yelling" post but I had to get your attention :o


I'll do the 25% for the next 2 days like you said, and see how it goes.Good. Once you get the nitrates down to 20ppm, follow Drekkyk's advice in an earlier post and start gradually vacuuming the gravel. His post is at the end of the first page and it's correct.

Once you get all that done and the nitrates under control, wait about a week to make sure things are kosher and then change the gravel out if you want :) You and the fish should be fine by then.

Mary's advice in the previous post about the glass is a very good point. That stuff is sharp.


Yes I vaccumed the gravel before, so you are indeed right about the pleco. :(Wish I wasn't :(
Bottom feeders are usually the first to be affected in an OTS tank.

Roan

[Roan Art]

Almost forgot --

I did some research on osmotic shock and unfortunately -- or fortunately, depending on how you look at it -- the symptoms are not unlike ammonia or nitrite poisoning: gasping at the surface, excessive gill movement, red or purple gills.

Once a fish goes into osmotic shock, there is nothing you can do and they usually die within an hour.

Now, this is what I've read on five or six different web sites. If someone can confirm and/or add to the above that would be great.

Roan

[InvaderJim]

Not your fault. It's no one's fault except whomever was looking after the tank before you. It's not fair to put you in this type of position at all. To put it bluntly, it really sucks to have to clean up someone else's mess.

Everyone has your best interests at heart and the advice given was good for everything but this particular situation. OTS isn't something you can attack aggressively, and it's about the only thing that can't be fixed with massive water changes.

Believe me, I feel like an donkey's behind for that "yelling" post but I had to get your attention :o

Roan

Don't worry about the yelling. :) It's no problem...you probably saved me from a future disaster. So your tactic was successful. I will defiantly follow what I've been told and be sure to update you on how the tanks doing.


Almost forgot --

I did some research on osmotic shock and unfortunately -- or fortunately, depending on how you look at it -- the symptoms are not unlike ammonia or nitrite poisoning: gasping at the surface, excessive gill movement, red or purple gills.

Once a fish goes into osmotic shock, there is nothing you can do and they usually die within an hour.

Now, this is what I've read on five or six different web sites. If someone can confirm and/or add to the above that would be great.

Roan

Well in that case my fish are fine. It's been a couple hours since the change and they are zipping around the tank and what not like normal, and ate earlier so I think I'm safe there.

[InvaderJim]

I was wondering if my nitrates have let up any? I can't tell exactly where its at.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JimmayJimmay/water.jpg

[Roan Art]

I'd say you're around 80, but it's hard to tell. My rule with those charts is that if it's high enough that the colors all look the same, then it's too high :)

Roan

[InvaderJim]

I'd say you're around 80, but it's hard to tell. My rule with those charts is that if it's high enough that the colors all look the same, then it's too high :)

Roan

haha good point.

[IceH2O]

It would be easier to tell if you'd put the tube in front of the white section of the card. Don't put it against it but maybe an inch or 2 away when you take the pic.

I usually ask my wife and 2 daughters what color they think it is plus mine and whatever gets the most votes is what it is.

[InvaderJim]

I waited a few days after that 50% water change to change the water in the tank. I just did a 25% water change.

pH - 7.6
High Range pH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nirates - 40
Temperature - ~ 83F

[Roan Art]

Don't be afraid to do 50% water changes. I do them twice a week on my rainbowfish tanks.

The more fresh water for the fish, the better.

40ppm! Yay! Couple more and you should be golden :dance:

Roan

[InvaderJim]

I'll do a 50 in a few days or so. Im glad its finally going down! :dance:

Are those pH levels ok? They seem a little on the high side.

[IceH2O]

Take a sample of your tapwater and let it sit for 24 hrs, then check the PH. That will show you what it should read in the tank.

You don't need to waste the time or chemicals on the Low PH test if you're reading on the High PH test.

[Roan Art]

Are those pH levels ok? They seem a little on the high side.What's the pH out of your tap? Put some in a cup and let it sit overnight, then test it.

I wouldn't worry about 8.2 unless you are going to breed discus.

Roan

[InvaderJim]

I'm down to 10ppm after my 30% water change!!!

The water in my tank seems to be on the warm side. Like 84+ I think.