overstocking?

[caseyrh]

you guys are always so cautious about overstocking and what kind of fish you can put in a tank. i have three quick points. first if you go to fish stores those tanks are way overstocked by your standards yet they are all alive and healthy. furthermore i go to one fish store where the guy wont sell me an eight inch oscar cause i only have a 55 gallon tank. yet the oscar is living in a 20 gallon tank at the store. then i ask about buying a jaguar cichlid he tells me they get way to big and will kill everything in the tank. and then as an example he takes me to the back and shows me a little pond setup he has that cant hold more than 250 gallons with like 15 fish all at least 15' swimming around with a huge jaguar just swimming peacfully and bumping into other fish. second point is everyone keeps talking about how many fish you can fit in a tank but has anyone ever put a fullgrown oscar by itself in a 30 gallon tank and taken care of it properly and had it die because the tank was to small? third is a guy i know from college had a 55 gallon tank. with a pleco, an oscar, three african cichlids, one red pacu, and some other kind of fish. left for the summer no one fed the fish once in a 2 month span the tank was only halfway full and only one fish died it was a small one that i dont know what kind it is. my point is maybe you guys go a little overboard with the ramifications of not changing the water every week, overstocking, exact things to feed. maybe these fish are a little hardier than you guys think they are. im in the market to buy a 200 or 250 gallon tank too hold my baby pike, peacock bass, and wolf cichlids once they reach about five inches. plus a pleco and i was thinking about getting a jaguar. once i move them to the 200 or 250 gallon tank. i will convert the 55 gallon into a breeder tank for large feeders and maintain my 20 gallon tank as a guppy breeding feeder tank. i asked someone about this and they told me i would need a 2000 gallon tank for the peacock alone. i mean give me a break.

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

You sound upset about this, but wouldn't you want to do whats absolute best for your fish? I mean, obviously NO ONE can replicate nature here and give each fish as much space as they would have in the wild, but we can at least try.

There ARE tanks that are too small for certian fish, that is indisputeable. So therefore the challenge is trying to determine a "minimum tank size" for a given species. This is where it gets tricky, because everyone has different experiences keeping fish and different views on how much space a fish needs. But some things need to be taken into account:

1. The tank is physically large enough to allow the fish to turn around, and swim for more than 10 seconds (for example) before it has to turn around again.

2. The tank (and filter) is large enough to hold the bioload of the fish (ie- the waste it produces), keeping the tank cycled and 'clean'.

To comment on some of your points:

first if you go to fish stores those tanks are way overstocked by your standards yet they are all alive and healthy
- Most fish stores have large central filtration systems with huge filters, capeable of handling large overstocked tanks. Rarely do hobbyests that do not have fishrooms have this kind of filtration. Also, the fish are not supposed to be there for very long, thus they can be overstocked in tanks temporarily.

furthermore i go to one fish store where the guy wont sell me an eight inch oscar cause i only have a 55 gallon tank. yet the oscar is living in a 20 gallon tank at the store
- The oscar is there temporarily (hopefully) whereas he would have to live his life in a small 55 gallon tank. I'd much rather see him in a 20 gallon for a couple weeks as opposed to a 55 gallon for his whole life.

second point is everyone keeps talking about how many fish you can fit in a tank but has anyone ever put a fullgrown oscar by itself in a 30 gallon tank and taken care of it properly and had it die because the tank was to small?
- Yep, it happens all the time. Mostly people think the oscar died of old age, or HITH or some other diease that it got because the tank was too small. Oscars should live well up to 10 years. I think if you kept a full grown oscar in a 30 gallon (aside from the fact that it would BARELY have enough space to move) you'd probebly need to do water changes daily to keep the nitrates down to a decent level.

third is a guy i know from college had a 55 gallon tank. with a pleco, an oscar, three african cichlids, one red pacu, and some other kind of fish. left for the summer no one fed the fish once in a 2 month span the tank was only halfway full and only one fish died it was a small one that i dont know what kind it is
- yes, fish can live for a while without food (we've left fish for a week with no problems), but they can obviously go longer. Female mouthbrooders dont eat for a month when they hold babies. And yes, fish can live without a tank cleaning for a month or two. But these fish will be in terrible condition, likely will be riddled with diseases, be skinny, 'unhappy', and likely stunted from a buildup of growth hormones happening from the lack of water changes. I dont believe your friend will be able to house that many fish in that tank for very much longer. (not to mention the extreme uncompatibility).

maybe these fish are a little hardier than you guys think they are
-Sure fish are hardy. But that doesn't mean we should exploit them and treat them like crap.

i mean give me a break
- Are you just unhappy that the LFS guy wouldn't sell you all these large fish to stuff into your 55 gallon?

;)
-Diana

[sumthin fishy]

This has been brought up on numerous occasions, and usually the analogy of another animal is thrown in, lets use a dog.

You bring home a cute little puppy, and look it fits quite well into the 1 foot by 1 foot by 1 foot metal cage. theres some extra room too! why not get a kitten to keep it company?! Well, puppy food is less expensive than kitty food, I bet they can both do fine with that. Shoot, I gotta go out of town for a week!! Oh well they can live in thier own excrement for a few days, right?

A few months pass and the dog and cat are fighting a little, but no problem, theres not really enough room for them to do any major damage.

A year later, they are now too big to move at all in thier little cage, but they didnt grow as big as they should. WOW they almost still look like a little puppy and kitten!!

Three years later, the dog dies. Well three years is kind of a long time right? RIGHT?!

[caseyrh]

i didnt want the guy to sell me the jaguar cichlid once i saw how big it was. my point was that he was doing fine... not attacking anything and in a very small area. that why i said give me a break. as far as being abe to swim for ten seconds in one direction without having to turn. that means that a guppy who could swim at 6mph woud need a 10 foot long tank or about 1500 gallons. that just doesnt make any sense. those are the kind of comments that i am talking about. they just make no sense. almost every fish could swim from one end of the tank to the other in much less than ten seconds. as far as me stuffing all these fish in a 55 gallon tank that is not the plan nor did i lead you to believe it was. currently i have 10 inches of fish in a 55 gallon tank even you guys would say that is understocked. all i wanted to do was add a baby jag and a baby dovii and switch them to a 250 gallon tank when they all reached about 5 inches. i dont think that is irresponsible or tortureous. i am breeding my own fish for them, and making sure the feeders are healthy. i woud be willing to take the jag out of the mix. 250 gallons! not 55 or 35 or even 125. that is a huge tank.
oh and the puppy/cat analogy was absurd. dont even want to respond to that nonsense.
and as far as my buddys tank goes that was 6 months ago and everything is stil perfectly healthy.

[Slappy*McFish]

I once thought I knew everything about aquariums...until i listened to the advice of more experienced aquarists. That's when I found out how little I actually knew and my aquarium related problems slowly began to taper off.

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

That swim for 10 seconds without turning around thing was an example, its not an actual rule... at least I've never heard of it. It was meant to show you that a fish needs a tank large enough so that it doesn't have to just constantly turn around when it swims.

And the 1" of fish per gallon rule is crap, you can throw that out the window too.

;)
-Diana

[caseyrh]

im clearly not going by the one inch per gallon rule.

[sumthin fishy]

The analogy I gave is hardly nonsense, unless you consider the life of a fish less valuable than a mamailian pet. There is a member here who had a pacu that was 35 years old. I will guarentee if you tried to keep one in a little 30 gallon it would not live that long. (nor would an oscar live 12-15). You can keep fish how you want, but the purpose of this site is to give information how how to provide the best possible care for our fish. While fish may be able to withstand harsh conditions, does not mean we need to subject them to said conditions.

[caseyrh]

but is putting two 24' fish in a 250 gallon fish tank really the same thing as putting a cat and a dog in a 1 foot by 1 foot steel cage and not feeding or cleaning them for 2 months? come on that a huge stretch. i was looking on monsterfishkeepers.com and a guy said he has two 24' peacocks in a 210 gallon tank and that they are very healthy and happy. so lets not paint me as some sort of animal cruelest. im just trying to get a few fish and take of them.

[caseyrh]

furthermore i was not going to put a pacu or a ocsar in a 30 gallon tank. and on top of that you make a guaruntee, from which information source does this guarantee come from? have you done this or had a friend who did this and they died? or are you just getting your info from the people who post on this forum whom also have never tried this or knew someone who has. if i did what i was planning on doing putting a peacock, a pike, a dovii, a jaguar, and a plesco together i would be looking at 80-100 inches of fish in a 250 gallon fish tank. do i am also clearly not going by the one inch per gallon rule either. all of the con points you guys bring up seem rather mute because they have little to know relevance on what i am actually planning on doing. i would just like someone to step forward and tell me it wont work who is speaking from actuall experience and tell me what happened when he tried this. because i recently spoke to a marine biologist from UC san diego(which probably has the best biology department in the country) tell me it would and easily. does someone here have better credentials than that? because if so i would like to talk to them. my problem is everyone immiediatly criticizes what i am doing without actually stating opinions formed by themselves. i think sometimes you guys play follow the leader. and for some reason unbeknownest to me the leader said not to do this. so instead of telling me a fish shouldnt be able to swim across the tank in 10 seconds. or the one inch rule is junk please give me insight on personal experiences with these fish. they are all cichlids and this is a cichlid forum.

[caseyrh]

also just for sh*ts and giggles what size tank did the guy with the 35 year old pacu live in and with what were the tank mates? it would be funny if it wasnt larger than a 250 gallon tank because pacu's grow to be roughly the same size as the largest fish i am talking about.

[sumthin fishy]

Well as was said, keep your fish how you want. My analogy referred to your friend with the 55 gallon, and I would definatly call that animal abuse. How wide will that 250 be? And will you have it before the fish is stunted and having internal organ problems? Id like to know how long the monterfishkeepers fish live in the long run.

Here, and I have a pic of one in my field and stream thats about 32 inches ;)http://www.peacockbassassociation.com/html/gallery_peacock_bass.html

[caseyrh]

wow that guy is a monster. i could see how that guy would have a tough time in a 250. but i have read that they dont get over 24 inches in captivity.

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

I dont really understand you to be honest, you keep saying you have "this many inches of fish" in your tank and then you say your not going by the 1" of fish per gallon rule? :confused:

I didn't read your other post, so I have no idea what your talking about with your 240 gallon tank or whatever, and what fish you want to put in. I have NO experience with those fish so I didn't comment on them. So why are you blasting me? Someone with experience obviously told you thier opinion. And this is all going by personal opinion, so dont get so huffy. You seem very angry with the fact that someone told you something you didn't want to hear. Thats what life is, my friend, so get used to it.

Just because someone has a marine biologist degree doesn't make them an expert on all fish by ANY means.

The further I go in this hobby the smaller tanks seem to get. When I first started out I thought a 55 gallon was huge. Now its tiny, and a 250 gallon isnt even that big to me, especially considering the size of some fish.

Not everyone knows everything, and you dont HAVE to listen to them, but just keep in mind that fish need to be treated with respect like ANY other animal, including humans.

Also, any fish will grow LARGER in captivity than in the wild, as long as the tank size is large enough for it ;)


-Diana

[Star_Rider]

Caseyrh, I think you may have answered your own question
"wow that guy is a monster. i could see how that guy would have a tough time in a 250. but i have read that they dont get over 24 inches in captivity. "
do you wonder why they don't get much larger than 24" in captivity?
I am pretty sure that in part..the reason is , in captivity we cannot duplicate the environement..try as we might we fall short of mother nature.

Let me see if I can word this correctly..but when we control the environment our impact can have a dramatic effect on the subject in question..in his case cichlids.
it is obvious what those ramification can have (case in point the peacock bass).
I think as enthusiasts of aqauriums we try to do the best we can. by giving the fish more room, thus more water we can minimise the impact we have.

the 1" rule is a 'rule of thumb' that only takes in to account 1 dimension of a three dimenssional animal..that's why I dopn't base my stockin on this rule..it would be best if we did it based on cu ft measurments or cu inch measurements.
by no means am I saying that overstocking can't be accomplished..it can as long as proper steps are taken to assure that the impact of overstocking is minimised.
read-more frequent water changes.

I believe that the guy in the fish store bases his opinion on the folks he has to deal with..keep in mind most people aren't going to do more than throw water in a tank..slap on some filtration and throw in a fish..they might even change the water now and then.

read..most people. :thud:


:hi:

ed

[mduros]

also just for sh*ts and giggles what size tank did the guy with the 35 year old pacu live in and with what were the tank mates? it would be funny if it wasnt larger than a 250 gallon tank because pacu's grow to be roughly the same size as the largest fish i am talking about.Here is a thread by one of the members who recently suffered a big loss with her fish. She had a 28 year old pacu and the size of tank is in the signature line. http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70287 (http://)
Take care,
Mary.

[caseyrh]

first of all i dont think i said anything about the one inch rule before you brought it up. second when i say 80 inches of fish in a 250 gallon tank. i am showing that i am not using the one inch rule. otherwise it would be 250 inches in a 250 gallon tank. clear? you were also the one who came up with the absurd 10 second rule. and the guy with the marine biology degree owns a fish store. so i gotta believe he knows what he is talking about. as far as the grows larger in captivity. this website says that peacocks rarely grow larger than24' in captivity. yet they grow 36' in the wild.

[caseyrh]

i cant get the link to work, why dont you just tell me how big the tank is.

[Star_Rider]

would that be 24" and 36 "

because 24'(read foot) would be a real monster.. ;)

my personal opinion is put in as many fish as you like..just make the effort to maintain good water :dive:

[mduros]

i cant get the link to work, why dont you just tell me how big the tank is.It's over 3400 gallons. However, it sounded like a serious question since you wanted to know the tankmates of the fish as well as the tank size. Reading her posts would be the best source for that. If you really care do a search for pacu and you come up with a thread about a big loss or something like that. And since your friend with the marine biology degree has a fish store, there's your source to buy from, order the fish from him since the other place won't sell you what you want. We're all just trying to help here. I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Jolly Mon]

I don't mean to interupt, but does all this mean it is wrong of me to keep a school of 12 inch Balas sharks in a 10 gallon tank. My vet says it should be okay...

Seriously Dude, you asked for the opinion of these people, don't get upset when it differs from your own. If you want to go your own way, do it.

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

Okay I'm done here, but just to clarify, maybe you should go back and re-read some things before making untruthful statements. It was not me who brought up the one inch of fish per gallon rule (god only knows why this continues to be a problem here, aren't we all intellegent people?).

First:
currently i have 10 inches of fish in a 55 gallon tank even you guys would say that is understocked

Second:
And the 1" of fish per gallon rule is crap, you can throw that out the window too.

*blink blink*


you were also the one who came up with the absurd 10 second rule

:duh: :duh:

Your ignorance right there makes me laugh and also makes me realize why I should never have bothered with you in the first place, and why I should not bother any more. :laugh:

-Diana

[Slappy*McFish]

Plain and simple: crowded/over-stocked conditions result in water quality issues and territory issues for all the inhabitants within a particular setup. A tank's stocking limit is totally dependent on how much waste the particular fishes produce and how much space they require to live their lives comfortably. Some fishes' temperments influence the 'space requirement,' as well. It's not rocket science. A little common sense goes a long way....and people wonder why their fish are not healthy or die off, fight constantly due to compatability issues or lack of room, or their water is cloudy and/or smelly all the time, and have chronic algae problems, etc :huh:

[caseyrh]

diana: i really dont see where i am being ignorant. i never said i was going by the one inch rule. give me a quote that sais i was. show me where i said i was going to have 55 inches of fish in a 55 gallon tank or 250 inches of fish in a 250 gallon tank. because that would be going by the 1 inch rule. if i say 10 inches of fish in a 55 gallon tank. am i using the 1 inch rule? the one inch rule is 1 inch per gallon. correct? well than clearly i have never used it. come on lets not call me ignorant. and can everybody please stop with the ridiculous analogies. i cant even remember the last one something about having pacu's in a 10 gallon tank. none of this is what i am doing so the analogies are worthless.

[caseyrh]

slappy: why dont you then give me something that makes sense that i can apply to my tank. example: you could hold x amount this size of fish in x amount of gallons. give me a ballpark number so i know.

[Slappy*McFish]

Well, considering the thousands of species of fish available in this hobby and the different sizes of tanks available...that question would be impossible to answer without knowing which species one wants to keep and in what size tank they plan on buying.

[managuense]

dang you sound just like i did when i was younger and beginning with fish, ragin' agaist everyone and ****. I know you think everyone is so f#$%$%^^$%^^%%%$$#$$%$%%$% h&&^^%%$%^%$%^% STUPID! and it realy pisses you off ,but what they say is true. Some of this stuff like you should only have one fish in a 1 million gallon tank is crap and it makes you wonder why the hell do i want to do this hobbie. buy whatever you want and then when it gets to big pass it on. No one on this site will ever step down from what they say. these people probably dont even follow the things they say to you, they are telling you "textbook" for you to learn. its likewhen im at work(im 18 i work at mcdonalds) and i have to train a new person, i have to do everything the"properway" so they know how to do it the properway so they dont get *****ed at my the manager. If i told that person that its okay to scrap the meet off the grill and dont bother with the spatula your supposed to scrape it up with also, that persons ganna be in trouble and it'll be like my fault, so i just tell them the Textbook way and let them find out what works for them later. No one is ganna tell you it is okay to put an oscer in a 55gal (or what evr only an example) cause if we told you that, then its our fault because your fish is pissed of in a tank that isnt even as wide as he is long, or your fishes death. Every one has expirience and you dont so if you dont like they info then dont listen
No one is against you-
you'e against everyone. now just forget about arguing with this whole fish tank thing and take to thought what everyone has said. Cause if everyone started to agree with youre thought then youd know they're only doin it to shut you up. and you know what in a crowded tank you cant breed ****, and breeding my fish is now a way i make some money on the side. o and theyre is No real rule on that even,if there was we'd tell u,ud argue and wed be in the same place as now
now take all this and think before you lash out at me. not against anyone im just tryin to clarify cause im a kid that has also been through all this. if your not a kid then im sorry but you sound like one :huh:
love kyle :dance2: :clap:

[monkey_toes]

:troll: :rant: :troll: :rant: :troll: :rant: :troll:

[caseyrh]

managuenese: first of all im not a kid and you are. but even if i were i would still know that some of these arguements are ridiculous. maybe i came off like i wanted to argue with you guys but i really just wanted to let you all know that some of the stocking opinions here are just a little to extreme. i understand that you cant throw a ton of fish in a small tank. but thats not what i want to do. i just want to throw a few big fish in a big tank. i dont want to buy a 250 gallon tank so i can put 4 six inch fish in it. isthat such a crazy idea. here is what i did: i looked at THIS website under species profile. and looked at the minimum gallon requirements for the fish i want. than i decided to buy four of them and put them in a tank that satisfied all requirements. However when i ask about doing this people acuse me of being some sort of cruel animal owner and that pisses me off. its easy for people too accuse me of being a jerk but most likely they dont have the fish i want and really cant tell me if whether or not they have flourished or failed in the enviroments i have suggested. somebody on monster fish keepers told me they have two peacock bass's in a 210 gallon tank and that they are very healthy. why dont you guys go over there and tell him how cruel he is, i guaruntee he would argue with you and have more experience than you guys.
is this website wrong with their species profiles? do you guys profess too know more than the creators of this website?
another thing is i was walking through the halls in my school and realized there was a 24 inch pacu in a 35 gallon tank. and when i began to think about it, he has been there for at least 6 years. now is that cruel? maybe. but the fish is probably 15 years old living in a 35 gallon tank for the majority of his life. now when i consistently here that a fish of that size cannot live unless they are in a 400 gallon tank or something. i just know that it is not true. thats all. some of the stuff posted here is simply not true. and when someone tries to do what i want to do you accuse me of being ignorant or selfish or abusive. that is what bugs me. no more analogies too torture of other animals or completely different circumstances just be realistic and understand that everything everyone says on here is not fact. i mean wild convicts are used to living in the wild in lakes that are hundreds of miles in circumference maybe. but you guys have no problem putting them in a ten gallon tank. put them in a five gallon tank however and its torture. those are the concepts that even someone with know experience could cast aside. the truth is keeping any fish in an aquarium is probably torture. and feeding piscivirous fish pellets is also torture. breeding guppies to feed other fish is definately torture. and breeding any fish too sell to an aquarium just to make a buch where they will be taken care of in uncertain scenarios is also TORTURE. but lets be realistic we all enjoy keeping fish and make fish sacrifice so that we can recieve the pleasure of viewing them. so when i ask about doing something dont knock me for it just answer the question if you have personal experience with exactly what i am asking. after all that is the point of a forum. being a college basketball coach i know a lot about basketball, which is a sport, that doesnt mean that i know a lot about soccer nor would i profess too. so if you keep a tank full of plecos and nothing else dont tell me about peacock bass.

[monkey_toes]

I repeat:

:troll: :rant: :troll: :rant: :troll: :rant: :troll:

[managuense]

another thing is i was walking through the halls in my school and realized there was a 24 inch pacu in a 35 gallon tank so you are a kid or at least 20? you know what i dont care the spec profiles are correct but there are circumstance and point were things change. i think the profile tells how big a fish can be alone, and note it says Minimum tank size. any ways, im out :hi:
managuenese: first of all im not a kid and you are. but even if i were i would still know that some of these arguements are ridiculous. maybe i came off like i wanted to argue with you guys but i really just wanted to let you all know that some of the stocking opinions here are just a little to extreme. i understand that you cant throw a ton of fish in a small tank. but thats not what i want to do. i just want to throw a few big fish in a big tank. i dont want to buy a 250 gallon tank so i can put 4 six inch fish in it. isthat such a crazy idea. here is what i did: i looked at THIS website under species profile. and looked at the minimum gallon requirements for the fish i want. than i decided to buy four of them and put them in a tank that satisfied all requirements. However when i ask about doing this people acuse me of being some sort of cruel animal owner and that pisses me off. its easy for people too accuse me of being a jerk but most likely they dont have the fish i want and really cant tell me if whether or not they have flourished or failed in the enviroments i have suggested. somebody on monster fish keepers told me they have two peacock bass's in a 210 gallon tank and that they are very healthy. why dont you guys go over there and tell him how cruel he is, i guaruntee he would argue with you and have more experience than you guys.
is this website wrong with their species profiles? do you guys profess too know more than the creators of this website?
another thing is i was walking through the halls in my school and realized there was a 24 inch pacu in a 35 gallon tank. and when i began to think about it, he has been there for at least 6 years. now is that cruel? maybe. but the fish is probably 15 years old living in a 35 gallon tank for the majority of his life. now when i consistently here that a fish of that size cannot live unless they are in a 400 gallon tank or something. i just know that it is not true. thats all. some of the stuff posted here is simply not true. and when someone tries to do what i want to do you accuse me of being ignorant or selfish or abusive. that is what bugs me. no more analogies too torture of other animals or completely different circumstances just be realistic and understand that everything everyone says on here is not fact. i mean wild convicts are used to living in the wild in lakes that are hundreds of miles in circumference maybe. but you guys have no problem putting them in a ten gallon tank. put them in a five gallon tank however and its torture. those are the concepts that even someone with know experience could cast aside. the truth is keeping any fish in an aquarium is probably torture. and feeding piscivirous fish pellets is also torture. breeding guppies to feed other fish is definately torture. and breeding any fish too sell to an aquarium just to make a buch where they will be taken care of in uncertain scenarios is also TORTURE. but lets be realistic we all enjoy keeping fish and make fish sacrifice so that we can recieve the pleasure of viewing them. so when i ask about doing something dont knock me for it just answer the question if you have personal experience with exactly what i am asking. after all that is the point of a forum. being a college basketball coach i know a lot about basketball, which is a sport, that doesnt mean that i know a lot about soccer nor would i profess too. so if you keep a tank full of plecos and nothing else dont tell me about peacock bass.

[onepawnup]

managuenese: another thing is i was walking through the halls in my school and realized there was a 24 inch pacu in a 35 gallon tank. and when i began to think about it, he has been there for at least 6 years. now is that cruel? maybe. but the fish is probably 15 years old living in a 35 .

Im a newbie fishkeeper myself but i ask you 2 questions
1 could you live in a 10x10 room for 15 years with proper food
answer is yes
2 would you want to 2
oh yeah they even have a name for it
PRISON

good luck with whatever you decide to do but please think of your fish
good day
onepawn

[caseyrh]

manga: well i work at a college. i guess that makes me 18 or 20? i dont really get the reasoning. The species profile says that is the size tank they should be in to live a healthy and long life. also it doesnt say anything about them being alone in that tank size so that is just your assumption. and to the other guy witht the prison comment, do you own fish? if you do your'e keeping them in prison just like the rest of us regardless of tank size. also im a human not a fish. again more ridicuous analogies.

[Larissa]

You know Casey, you're right. Most members of AC do understock their tanks. If you don't agree with that and continue to argue, then Aquaria Central is probably not the place for you. I'm sure that there are lots of fish forums on the web that don't care how many fish you put in your tanks. Have a good day. :)

[Harry Tolen]

And on that note, I think everything has been said.