W/G for 90G

Many people feel, myself included, that 2-2 1/2 watts per gallon is the cut off point. It starts to get real iffy after that, algae wise.
You can grow many, many plants at that wattage. They will do much better with CO2 than without regardless of the lighting.
Len
 
So you think I can get away with 2.5 W/G without using any CO2? I hope so, because that’s what it works out for me if I get the light set up that I want from AH Supple. It’ll be 220W for the 90g =2.4w/g.

I wasn’t too sure if I had to up the watts since it’s a deeper tank.

I really don’t want to use CO2, since this is going to my first time caring for Discuses. I hear Discuses are sensitive to PH changes. And I’ve read that with the CO2 you can alter your PH quite drastically if not carefully monitored.

I’m still trying to decide if the 2.4w/g will be strong enough to get a good variety of plants without having them sufficate from the lack of CO2 in the tank.

If CO2 is necessary, I’m going to have to look more into the pressurized or maybe the simpler Carbo plus. I don’t really have the patience to shut off and on a valve for CO2, so I’m leaning more toward the more expensive Carbo Plus.

It sounds like you have some discus…Are they as sensitive and has high maintenance as everyone says?
 
I have a 90 gallon with a 4x65 watt PC fixture. Shortly after I set it up I got a pretty good outbreak of GW that required me to buy a UV sterilizer. Blackouts and diatom filtration wouldn't get rid of it. I have since added pressurized CO2 to get the algae under control. My plants appreciate it and the algae hasn't been a problem. Now I need to spend the money to get some a good nitrate test kit and get my nutrients under control- which is probably even more important than the lighting.

I haven't kept them, but I hear that discus are picky. Once you get your CO2 adjusted properly it is really quite stable. You will be able to confindently predict the daytime and nighttime ph/co2 levels. I would be more concerned about the $150-200 setup cost to go pressurized than the ph fluxuations. It can be done, and when done well you could have a big, beautiful tank of healthy plants and happy fish.
 
Basic notion:
Healthy plants= healthy fish.

If you want to keep plants it is a good idea to know how to grow them well.
220w will= algae without CO2 in your proposal.

Ask yourself why you want that much light to the point where you almost have to have CO2?

Is it for the plants so they will grow better?

If so might I suggest less light. Try 160w max( like 4x 40 w T-12's or 4x T-8's with electronic ballast). That will cost you less. Get a reflector.

Plan on a deep substrate if plan to keep rooted plants in a non CO2 tank.

Discus might be sensitive to pH change simply because many people keep them in water without hardly any buffer at all. Even a small amount of acid causes the pH to drop very easily.
If you keep a KH of 3 or so, that's enough to buffer the pH and also enough to use CO2 without issue. You simply raise your KH to 3 with baking soda or blend with RO if you feel you need to do this for the fish. They do fine at a KH 5-6 also. They also grow and bred at 80-82F as well.

There is a best range which has no plants/gravel/88F/very very soft water and over feeding them in large bare bottom tanks. If you want that, do it. But if you want a nice tank with the fish and plants, cater to the plants, temp around 82F. The fish will be quite happy if you take care of the plant's needs.

FWIW, Fish in the wild go through temp drops of 10F and also pH changes of well over 1 unit diurnally after large thunderstorms which do occur in the natural habitat. These are big old cichlids, not wimpy fish. They are not particulary difficult to keep but are large, like softer water, 80-82F or higher.
Beyond that, you are getting into another realm that is more focused on show fish, max breeding/brood production etc. But nice fish are produced and bred in the above conditions and in planted tanks with CO2.

So you can figure out what you want to do from there. Furry algae Discus tanks seem to be quite common. Only folks that work on the plant end of it have nice looking planted Discus tanks that I have seen. They also get nice healthy fish. My fish always had great health and color and I had them for about 2 years and sold them off as full grown large adults almost 7 inches.
Never fed them a single worm, pampered them, or worried about weekly 50% tap water changes.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
My apologies for the late response; I still don’t get emails notifying when someone has replied to the post.

$150-200 for the CO2 system…Ouch!!! This project is getting more expensive by the post :D Well, I already got rid of my SA Cichlids in my 90G. I already have it set in my head that I’m going for a planted tank setup for the 90G.

My 30g is working out pretty well. :cool: Only Algae that is a pain is the green spot algae that’s on the Glass. But I hear there’s really no way of preventing that fully. All the fish in there look very healthy and a lot happier. So I totally understand Tom’s Notation of Healthy plants = Healthy fish. That’s the big reason why I want the planted tank for the discuses.

I have 2 reasons for not wanting to use CO2 1) Money, Money, Moneyyyyy. 2) PH Fluctuation. Since you guys are saying that the PH doesn’t fluctuate that much, I can kind of deal with putting the CO2 for that purpose. But 150-200, I’m not too sure about. I have to look at some of the posts over here to see all the elements in a Pressurized CO2 setup, and see if there are any shortcuts I can take to save some money w/o having to take away from effectiveness. I hear that people use a powerhead instead of a reactor. Hopefully this is an effective method, because I have a spare powerhead just sitting around. I can cut costs with that.

160W sounds like a really good and much cheaper plan. But that’s about 1.8 W/G. Do you think that’s enough lighting for Moderate Light plants? Or am I going to have to going to be stuck with using only low light plants? (Big Question, Answer would be much appreciated ;)

Also, for a healthy moderate to heavily planted tank with 1.8 W/G do you think CO2 will be a limiting factor down the road? If the answer is YES that CO2 is the limiting factor, I’m probably just gonna go for the 220W with the added CO2. I would much rather spend the extra time/money than having a dead looking tank.

Thanks in advance for your replies.
 
1.8 will give you the ability to grow many types of plants. The only limits, IMO, are the red varieties of certain plants, and some plants the require really high lights.
Adding CO2 is never a limiting factor for plants. It enhances their growth even in low light tanks.
You can get a complete set up: 5# tube,regulator and CO2 hose for $99. All you need after that is a needle valve, which you can pick up from Clippard for about $10. A solenoid and bubble counter are optional, IMO. Frankly, after some of the stories I've heard about solenoids, I wouldn't have one. It isn't necessary to turn your CO2 of at night anyway.
Hope this has helped....
Len
 
Len,

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant by what I typed is, “By not putting CO2will it be the limiting factor”. This is because I’m trying not to use CO2, originally. But, if were not to use it, I do not want it to be a limiting factor in having healthy plants. What my goal is for the plants is to have nice healthy plants that “stay alive”. They don’t have to grow crazy or anything. I just want to attempt to have a successful non CO2 tank. Key word is Successful. Going back to the notation “Healthy Plants = Healthy fish.”

So you think I can actually use Moderate Light Plants in a tank that has 1.8 w/g? I always thought that anything below 2w/g is considered a “Low Light”.

If I do decide to go with CO2, where can I find that kit you mention for 99$? Is Clippard Store or a Brand?

If I did have CO2, I’m not sure if I would use the solenoid. I’d probably just have an air pump go on for a few hours in the middle of the night.
 
I'm running around 1.5-1.8wpg on my 55g plant tank with DIY CO2 and a deep substrate. My plants are very healthy and are doing fine at this light level with minimal algae. See my tank specs below for the plant species I am keeping at this light level.
 
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I think Plantbrain's recommendation for going down to 1.8 wpg was for if you wanted to avoid using CO2. CO2 would be the limiting factor and the additional light would go to waste, or (less good) to the algae.

One of the great advantages of using pressurized over DIY or Carbo-Plus is that for a small additional investment you can split off to multiple tanks, and while I'm not sure how many tanks you have it sounds like multiple is the case. Its that upfront versus long-term costs thing again.

I have 2.4 wpg on my 30 and have been frustrated by both algae and DIY CO2. I'm shopping around for a pressurized system now. It'll be set up to feed a second tank and in the future hopefully a few more. I haven't seen how I can bring it in for much less than $200 complete (about $150 for the tank and regulator, less if you go with a 5 lb tank but still about $120 in these parts).

Clippard is a valve manufacturer that seems to be a favorite of the wet set.

DIY, with its irregular output, may give you unstable fluctuations and I think thats where CO2 gets a reputation for instability. With pressurized there is a regular drop at night but the the system seems stable enough from everthing I've read. The air pump should help to dampen this if its a concern.
 
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