Salt Mythbusters, I Need Help!

[Larissa]

I was on a betta club board today and a breeder asked if he should add salt to betta water. I said no and another betta breeder said that he adds it for ich prevention and electrolytes. Apparently he uses distilled water for his bettas (not sure why). Anyhow, he argued with me and now I want some links to paste to state my argument. I've got RTR's salt article from the puffer forum and one from the skeptical aquarist that once again, RTR contributed to. They are great articles but I'm looking for something that says that using salt long-term can make ich salt- resistant. I believe that Daveedka has said something along those lines. Anyway, if that is true, I need help with some sources, pretty please.

[Walker_]

Cant add anything technical to the argument about salt, but Iv been seriously thinking about picking up a UV sterilizer… may be an option…

[Roan Art]

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=408223&postcount=6

Dave did say that there are salt-resistant forms and cited a case in Florida, however I do not believe he related that to long term use of salt. Just that there were salt-resistant types.

Someone, either RTR or Dave I think, said that they thought/read that adding salt long-term could make ich salt-resistant, but it was just in passing and no direct reference that I can find/remember.

PM Daveedka and ask him about it. RTR probably knows of some incidents, if there are any and it's not just a theory, that have happened.

Roan

[RTR]

RTR is a bit dubious about salt resistance in Ich, but I have not researched the question so will not take a position. This is not a situation where what we call resistance is conventionally developed - from rapidly growing cultures with sub-lethal levels of antibiotics/antimetabolites. That is the basis of my skepticism, but not having seen the reports, I lack the info to analysize it.

I do use lower dose salt than is commonly suggested here, but I suspect that my water conditions are a bit more controlled and know than for many novices on these boards, and that could have an effect on dosage requirements.

I also do not get a lot of new fish. Someone wise once said that you can tell experienced fishkeepers - every time that you visit their home you see the same fish. I set my tanks projecting a ten year setup, because that is how long I expect the fish to last, or the maximum I expect my interest in that setup to last. That does limit my exposure to new strains of old diseases, or simply to disease at all. Couple that with a central system and neurotic QT and I miss a lot of the excitment many newcomers are subjected to... :dance2:

EDIT: I cannot comprehend someone using DI or RO or RODI without adding real electrolytes to the water prior to its use for fish. But I am easily shocked even after all these years. Sodium chloride is, I suppose, better than nothing. But not much better.

[daveedka]

I like RTR am not totally convinced of how or even if salt resistance builds. I Know of enough people who get ich in tanks with chronic low level salt use, but what other vatriables are in play and what strains of ich they are dealing with I do not know. It does seem that when people have ich, and they were already using salt then they will have a tough time getting rid of the ich. Whether the ich has built a resistance, or it was a naturally resistive strain to begin with is the question that isn't answered.
There really are only a handful of cases that I know of that ich survived any real level of salt at all. But since those cases do exist I tend to reccomend dosage at the higher end of the studied ich threshhold. Additionally, given ich's ability to hide from fishkeepers, I tend to like being very sure of it's death. So many of the subtle symptoms are shared with other ailments and parasites that I like to know ich is not a consideration then if I see flashing or other signs I can move on to less common causes.

As far as your actual issue/ argument at hand, RTR's salt article would line out most if not all reasons to avoid salt. If your friend is using distilled water and wants to add electrolytes back in, RO right or something similar would be my reccomendation. Or go with a homemade mineral mix to provide the needed electrolytes. The idea that salt use is ich prevention flies in the face of reason. Ich has to be introduced via new fish. So especially with a beatta tank, it makes no sense at all to maintain a preventative med on a regular basis. It's kind of like putting ice melter on you sidewalks every night in summer. It will prevent ice from building up, but there wasn't any concern of ice in the first place because the temperature is above freezing.

As far as I know the beatta's natural environment is on the lower end of sodium content in freshwater. To provide that as the only available electrolyte also flies in the face of reason.

dave

[Larissa]

Thanks for the help everyone. This guy is way more experienced than I am. He breeds show quality bettas and it was never my intention to argue with him. One of the other breeders on the board wanted opinions on adding NaCl to his betta water, if it was neccessary, or not, and why. This other guy cited ich prevention and adding electrolytes as a reason to add salt. Still not sure as to why this guy is jarring several hundred bettas in salty R/O water, or why he couldn't treat ich on a case by case basis. I mean, I'm assuming that his bettas are all seperate from one another and not running on some central filtering system.

[Roan Art]

Ask him if he QTs any new breeding stock. If he says he does, then ask him how any of his stock would even contract ich if all the new stuff is QT'd.

He'll either stumble because he doesn't understand the ich life cycle and thinks it's "always present in the tank" -- your chance to educate him -- or you'll find out that he doesn't QT new stock at all, which doesn't do much for his credibility as a breeder -- another chance to educate him.

Either way, his excuse for using salt to prevent ich is crap unless he's a careless breeder and doesn't QT.

Roan

[mooman]

EDIT: I cannot comprehend someone using DI or RO or RODI without adding real electrolytes to the water prior to its use for fish. But I am easily shocked even after all these years. Sodium chloride is, I suppose, better than nothing. But not much better.

easily shocked........adding electrolytes to the water......ha you kill me RTR! Anybody else geeky enough to find that funny?

[Rowangel]

Hum, this is an interesting thread for me to read. I had a betta that survived just over three years in my care (had to euthanize because he developed mysterious nodules that, while not affecting him health wise, eventually made it difficult for him to swim) and I always used a bit of salt in his tank. Back when I first got him, the best betta information I found was at bettatalk.com. She's an experienced breeder and this is what she has to say on the subject;

"Salt. Yes, bettas are not marine fish, but they do love a bit of salt in their water and it also prevents parasites and fungus. Add 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt, or rock salt per 5 gal of water (not table salt!!!! They are bettas, not pretzels!!). Now a day, I actually put 1 teaspoon per 10 gal. What that means is that you can play around a bit with your salt amount, and I have found that anything between 1 teaspoon per 10 gal to 1 tablespoon per 5 gal works."

However, it makes sense to me that a fish (once QTed) should not develop either parasites or fungus with proper water maintenance. Interesting discussion.

[Roan Art]

"Salt. Yes, bettas are not marine fish, but they do love a bit of salt in their water. . ."

I read that once-upon-a-time at her web site a few months ago and it was the last time I went there.

I did email her back then and I asked if she could tell me what the difference in GH was between her salted water and a betta's natural environment's water. I also said I wanted to know how marine salt could be equated with aquarium salt because I didn't understand her correlation between the two.

She never did answer my email. Maybe it bounced?

Roan

[Roan Art]

easily shocked........adding electrolytes to the water......ha you kill me RTR! Anybody else geeky enough to find that funny?
Only in a sad "sometimes I wish I wasn't weird" way :D

Roan

[kveeti]

It's kind of like putting ice melter on you sidewalks every night in summer. It will prevent ice from building up, but there wasn't any concern of ice in the first place because the temperature is above freezing.


I love analogies. Thank you.

[Tom.E]

<They are great articles but I'm looking for something that says that using salt long-term can make ich salt- resistant. ….Anyway, if that is true, I need help with some sources, pretty please>

Well…why just ICH?

ICH is a big osmotic wimp in the universe of aquatic parasitic protozoans. How about some gremlins where salt won’t work.

Here’s just a small list of some FW ectoparasitic protozoans that have been scraped from captured estuarine fish.

Ichthyobodo necator
Capriniana piscium
Chilodonella piscicola
Chilodonella cucullus
Trichodina cubanensis
Trichodina domerguei
Trichodina kupermani
Trichodinella epizootica

Many more for sure but it’s been awhile since I did any cross-checking. Needless to say, it’s hard to kill FW parasitic protozoans with salt if they survive into brackish environments. Many protozoans can change their ionic concentrations and composition to a degree to maintain osmotic pressure. The osmotic boundaries are very species specific.

You also have Wetman’s Skeptical Aquarist site that mentions the ‘Sporozoan” class of parasitic protozoans. This is a very large group of protozoans that selectively target the tissue and organs of fish. For example, Hoffman’s Parasitology book lists over 150 FW species of Myxobolus alone that were found in everything from gill structures and skin tissue to gall bladders and brains of FW fish. And as inner tissue parasites, salt isn’t a good therapy since fish basically osmoregulate for the protists by maintaining their own plasma ionic composition.

So when it comes to deciding to salt a tank or not, why just worry about ICH?

And did I mention ICH is just a big osmotic whimp? And who’s the wiseguy that put all those “ i ”s in Ichthyophthirius multifilis?


Tom

[DaisyTattoo]

So, Is it okay to treat ich with table salt? Or should you ONLY use aquarium salt?

[Roan Art]

Yer a hoot, Tom ;)

That's some wicked information in your post. Wish WetmanNY was still around :( I've read his old posts and he's so "off the beaten path" of normal stringent thought that he can really make you take a look "outside of the tank".

Which reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask -- do brackish fish get FW ich or SW ich, or both?

Roan

[phises]

sea salt, rock salt

[RTR]

I don't know BW fish in general, but BW puffers are terribly sensitive to FW Ich and it is common among new stiock housed in FW at the LFS and likely at the distributor/wholesaler. But it responds quite nicely to salt/heat and since you are moving them up at least to 1.002 specific gravity ASAP, it is just part of QT, but in this case using marine mix rather than just salt. Turn the heat up a tad and you are home free.

I have not had SW White Spot since I kept SW long ago. I guess the BW puffers abuse in FW in distribution wipes that out, and they never got re-exposed in my tanks.

I do get shocked regularly on these forums. Not so much by novices, it would be unfair to expect them to be chemists and physiologists from the get-go. But I am shocked at folks with experience, and hobby/commercial scale breeders, who still have little concept of what water is and how fish function in it. I have been accused of living in an ivory tower, and that may be valid, but I have too much curiosity and need to know not to do some investigation on the basics of one of my main hobbies. I am sorry, but DI + NaCl has to be one of the more bizarre water formulations I have come across.

[Roan Art]

So, Is it okay to treat ich with table salt? Or should you ONLY use aquarium salt?
Table salt is fine.

Roan

[Roan Art]

I don't know BW fish in general, but BW puffers are terribly sensitive to FW Ich and it is common among new stiock housed in FW at the LFS and likely at the distributor/wholesaler. But it responds quite nicely to salt/heat and since you are moving them up at least to 1.002 specific gravity ASAP, it is just part of QT, but in this case using marine mix rather than just salt. Turn the heat up a tad and you are home free.Bit of a bonus there.


I do get shocked regularly on these forums. Not so much by novices, it would be unfair to expect them to be chemists and physiologists from the get-go. But I am shocked at folks with experience, and hobby/commercial scale breeders, who still have little concept of what water is and how fish function in it. I have been accused of living in an ivory tower, and that may be valid, but I have too much curiosity and need to know not to do some investigation on the basics of one of my main hobbies.
The day I stop wanting to know why is the day I get out of the hobby.


I am sorry, but DI + NaCl has to be one of the more bizarre water formulations I have come across.Maybe we should ship him some dill weed and he can sell canned Betta Pickles :joke:

Roan

[Larissa]

<

Well…why just ICH?

ICH is a big osmotic wimp in the universe of aquatic parasitic protozoans. How about some gremlins where salt won’t work.

Tom

Good question, Tom. The reason is because this betta keeper I was talking about uses salt in his water to prevent ich and to replace electrolytes in his R/O water. He was also really snobby and said that me not adding salt to "pet" betta's water was fine, but that he had "show" bettas. :rolleyes: I'm not quite sure why he thinks that his bettas deserve better treatment than mine. Anyhow, my next question to the breeders is will be about using distilled water. Thanks everyone, this stuff is great. I love to be educated.