Hey JSchmidt...

[val]

Originally posted by JSchmidt

I respectfully disagree with Val's advice. One of the advantages of fishless cycling is the growth of a bacterial colony sufficient to support a full bioload. If you do that, then allow much of the biofilter to die off from lack of food (because you're not fully stocking the tank), you'll risk exposing the tank inhabitants to mini-cycles everytime you add more fish. In that case, you'll not only see changes in fish behavior due to the addition of new tankmates, but also due to the presence of ammonia/nitrite in the water.

If there are health concerns (fish that need to be quarantined first), you might not want to add all the fish at once. But if that's not the case, I think you're much better off adding everyone at once.

Jim

I had a couple of thoughts/questions about your response to advice I gave in the newbie forum, if you've got the time.

I guess I don't understand something. It seems to me that when a tank gets cycled, there is some finite amount of bacteria that is going to grow, in the filters, on the rocks, etc. Now,if you are fishless cycling, at some point you are going to stop and you've got your colony ready. But, it is not like this bacterial colony has any idea of the bioload you're going to put in the tank. The same amount of bacteria will be in the tank after three weeks whether you plan to put 10 fish, or 20 or 50. So, if I develop a bacterial colony that could have supported 50 fish, but only put in 10, I'm going to kill most of my bacterial colony? And then, every time I add fish I create a new cycle and risk stressing them?

Is there something different about fishless cycling than fishy cycling. I've never done the former, only the latter. Now, in my most recent tank, a 55g, I started with an established filter, added 11 cardinals (I lost two the first day) and 3 lemon tetras. Two weeks later, I added 8 emperors and two weeks later I added 10 more cardinals and 2 clown pl*cos. Two weeks ago I added 11 more cardinals. it's a 2.5 hour round trip (not counting time spent in the store) to get cardinals, so over the next two months I'll add another 30 cardinals and a pair of dwarf rams. Now, how long are these spikes going to last, if I have them. I've had lots of confusion reading pH and hardness, as you may remember, but I've never had a nitrite or ammonia test come back with anything detectable and nitrates are usually pretty constant around 5ppm. This is the pattern I've used with the 7 or 8 setups to my credit. I guess I've never seen any problem doing it this way. So, why would fishless cycling be different.

It still seems to me that it is best for a newbie to concentrate on a couple of fish and get to know them, rather than go from bacteria in a tank for a month to 25 fish overnight.

I'd appreciate your feedback, though, if I am still off-base.

Thanks,

Val

[NJ Devils Fan]

If you don't have any source of ammonia in an established tank, then yes, your bioload will deminish until there is no more bacteria left. If you are going a fishless cycle and are able to add 5 ppm of ammonia everyday and have a test read 0 the next day, then you can add a heck of a lot more fish the first few days then you could say if you were fishy cycling with 10 danios.

About adding everyone at once, that isn't good because if you are cycling with 5 fish, then finish and add 30 more fish to the tank, then your bacteria will have to grow to support the bioload. there will be ammonia in the water until the bacteria has established itself which can take some time.



"The same amount of bacteria will be in the tank after three weeks whether you plan to put 10 fish, or 20 or 50"

No, this is not true. If I add 10 fish to a tank, the bacteria will grow so it can handle those 10 fish. If I add 10 more fish, then more bacteria will grow so it can handel all of the waste of the 20 fish. The fish will produce ammonia faster then the bacteria can establish, so there will be ammonia in the water and the fish will be stressed. That is why it is said to add fish slowly, so you do not stress the fish when your bacteria colonies are growing to support the bigger bioload.

[val]

Hey Brodeur fan...

Actually, this is a question about a response Jim made to me when I suggested doing the same thing over in the newbie forum. I always add my fish slowly, but the point Jim made was to go ahead and add the fish all at once.

Thanks for reading...

Val

[JSchmidt]

Hi Val,

I think you've mostly got it, but I see a couple of things a bit differently...

When I cycle fishlessly, I create a colony of bacteria that can handle ammonia far in excess of any bioload I'd throw in the tank. I will only stock a tank to a certain level, and I generally have an idea of what mix of fish I'll keep in a tank. So I cycle the tank to handle those fish I plan to keep in the tank.

If I were to only stock the tank initially with half the fish I eventually planned to add, you are right that some (much) of the biofilter I grew would die. (How quickly this happens I don't know for sure, but I would guess that it would require at least a couple of weeks for a significant reduction in bacteria.) So if I only added half the fish intended, waited a month, then added the rest of the fish, I would likely see an ammonia/nitrite spike (the dreaded mini-cycle). If I was forced to stock my tank in stages (due to fish availability, illness, etc.) I would add the later fish in gradually as you advise. Even doing that, it's not uncommon to see some slight bump in ammonia/nitrite.

You seem to be advocating slowly building up the fish load so you can get to know the fish. I don't see a huge advantage in that (I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I just don't see it as being particularly helpful), but I do see the possible exposure of fish to ammonia and nitrite as a bad thing.

This also ignores the advantage of adding fish all at once to reduce territory squabbles, something that most cichlid owners are all too aware of. (Granted, this last point is less of a concern with more peaceful fish like tetras, danios, etc.)

I'd rather stock the tank fully and observe how everyone is doing together and not have to worry at all about exposing fish to ammonia and nitrite. I think I can learn about my fish and their behavior just as well when I add them in as part of a group of 15 as when they're part of a group of 7.

The fish you talk about adding -- cardinals, rams, etc. -- generally put a fairly low load on your biofilter, so you method is fine for your practice. If you were adding a quartet of mbuna to a 55, however, you likely would see a minicycle as the biofilter fell behind the fishes' waste production.

Does that make sense?

Jim

[val]

You made an interesting point, which I've never had to deal with. In my tropical tanks, as well as the ones I've set up for friends, I typically go with smaller fish, so the need to handle four mbuna has never been a problem I've had to remedy. I keep GF, but they're not territorial and I haven't added one to my tank in four years. I've always added slowly, over a couple month period, and I've never experienced any mini-cycles with they fish I keep.

But I'll chalk up your experience if I ever have a desire to keep something else....

Val