recipe for fishless cycle

[Julianna]

Does anyone have a recipe for a good fishless cycle. I know this has been posted umpteen times before, but humor me...:) Also, can live plants be in the tank when you cycle it??
Julie

[Richer]

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
One of the best articles for fishless cycling.

As for plants, plants + fishless cycling is not suggested. With the constant addition of ammonia, and the lighting that plants require, you will eventually end up with a tank full of algae... an unnessessary headache.

HTH
-Richer

[Julianna]

Thank you very much for the link!!! I'll be starting tomarrow.


Julie

[anonapersona]

If you plant the tank first, the cycle will be less dramatic when you do add fish. The plants eat up the excess ammonia/ammonium and the fish won't suffer as much.


The Amano site suggests planting, letting it grow for about 4 weeks, then adding the algae crew, then substituting the final fish later. Sorry I don't have the link. Vector-something....I forgot, but if you search and find it, look for the Beginner's Guide.

[Richer]

Fishless cycling and plants do not mix. The excess ammonia will be utilized by algae, and you'll end up with an ugly algae bloom.

If you want to plant the tank from the beginning, here's what you do:

1.) Plant the tank to the brim with fast growing plants. Give the tank a day or two to settle.
2.) Add your herbivores (algae eating crew). Be careful at this stage, although herbivores produce less waste compared to omnivores and carnivores, they can still produce enough waste to overload your tank at this time. Give the tank 3-4 weeks to settle with your algae crew.
3.) Start adding your main show fish. Be very careful at this stage, although your plants have probably established by now, and your biological filters have some bacterial colonies, its still not high enough to handle a full load all at once. Add a couple of fish once a week, giving your tank enough time to establish a larger bacterial colony in response to the increase in bioload. After your tank has been stocked to what you want it to be, give it a few more weeks to further settle down.
4.) You can start your aquascape at this time. Slowly remove the plants that you don't want, and replace them with other slower growing plants if you want. Be careful when removing plants, don't remove too many at once.

HTH
-Richer

[C'Man]

Richer, you stated the following:

"http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
One of the best articles for fishless cycling.

As for plants, plants + fishless cycling is not suggested. With the constant addition of ammonia, and the lighting that plants require, you will eventually end up with a tank full of algae... an unnessessary headache.

HTH
-Richer"

The article that you referenced as one of the best for fishless recycling states that adding plants to a new aquarium is the second-best method for adding beneficial bacteria to the tank for the cycling. The only thing listed as a better source is filter media from an established, healthy tank. And then you state that plants and fishless cycling are not compatible. What are we who are trying the process for the first time supposed to believe? I, for one, am confused. I have followed the advice in the article and added plants. The process is only three days along, so no effects noted yet.

[TwoTankAmin]

If you have enough plants, you also have instant biofilter. I have set up several tanks almost fully planted with some seed material as well. I then dose 4 drops of ammonia/10 gals and test the water in about 2 hours for ammonia. If the reading is 0 (which it usually is) I stock. I have fully stocked tanks in this manner and never lost a fish due to ammonia or nitrites.

I have read here and other places not to plant then try fishless. I have always ignored that rule and never had problems. But I also know no two tanks nor fishkeepers are the same. All I know is what has worked for me :-)

[RTR]

Chris did not intend to set up a dichotomy between fishless cycling and planted tanks. The entire aim of this technique was to provide novices with a painless means of cycling their filters/tanks without stress, injury, or death to fish.

For those with no existing tanks, one of the best sources of nitrification bacteria are the potted plants at the LFS. These are normally grow in hydoponic solutions with the pots in the solution and the foliage emerse. No algae problems, clean heathy plants which just happen to have ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria in their rockwool potting medium. Go back and read the original:

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/cycling.shtml

The situation for a fully planted tank is quite different, and not at all what the original intent of the article was.

[Anaxus]

What kind of potted plants are those you mentioned?
Also I have read different aproaches some say add 5ppm ammonia each day and others say to just add as much ammonia needed to keep it at 5ppm. So far my ammonia hasn't droped yet(only been 5 days) so I haven't been adding more ammonia. I did not use the method of adding 5ppm each day because I read something about too much ammonia actually inhibits bacteria growth. So which is the correct way? Add 5ppm no matter what the current level is or add only as much as needed each day to bring ammonia to 5ppm?

[canucks]

Just thought I'd put my two cents in as far as dosing goes... I'm approaching the end of a fishless cycle, and I read (among others,) the article by Chris Cow; I understood it to mean bring the ammonia level BACK UP to 5ppm every day. So if it's still at 5ppm from the day before, you don't need to dose again. It just made sense to me. Keep in mind that 5ppm ammonia is quite toxic to fish, and what you're doing by KEEPING it at that level is building enough bacteria to cope with (more than likely), more ammonia than your final actual bioload of real live fish will produce. So why would you need to add more than 5ppm, right? Also, I think the reason fishless and plants don't go together is because plants take up ammonia as a nutrient, (thereby competing with our beloved bacterias). Sorry if this has already been stated in this thread, (can't remember).

...Although...being a newbie myself, and as I'm nearing the end of a fishless cycle, I WOULD like to know when it IS OK to add plants. One reply I got on another post informed me not to add plants til AFTER the fish...this seems a little odd to me... would adding them at the same time be OK???

[RTR]

Canuks is correct, you do not blindly add more and more ammonia, you instead maintain titers at whatever level you have selected.

Do I have to be honest? I cycle the filters separately for planted tanks. You see what happens when you have too many tanks, you get spoiled. I want the plants well established before the fish go in, and I want the filters fully competent, just in case the plants are not yet metabolically fully active (I do basically rooted rosette plants, few to no stems, and they do not settle in immediately). I also tend to schools of fish in the planted tanks, so slow fish addition does not get it. I've got and have done enough planted tanks that I do not see any reason for me to plant once for break-in and replant for long-term. But that thechnique is better for people who do not yet know their plants.

[Richer]

C'Man:

RTR essentially answered your question, but I feel I need to respond anyways, since you were talking to me.

Yes, plants are mentioned as a source for adding beneficial bacteria, however he never mentioned what happens in your tank when you have ammonia and lighting. Try it and see what happens, you'll probably end up with an algae bloom of some sort... sure happened to me, and plenty other people who have tried a fishless cycle with plants. Its a good source for bacteria, but not a good way to start up a planted tank.

-Richer

[Anaxus]

Yeah I have enough common sense(well maby :p ) to not keep adding the ammonia. I firgured I didn't want 40ppm ammonia in a week in my tank, that couldn't be a good thing. Just wanted to verify that infact I was doing it right

[C'Man]

Anaxus, my situation is identical to yours, with the same questions/doubts. RTR, Canucks and Richer, thanks for the responses. It is much clearer for me now.

[C'Man]

I have put together a recipe based on the referenced articles and comments from this thread. Please let me know if I'm off base with anything here.

Fishless cycling for a new aquarium:

1. Add water to the aquarium and turn on the filtering system, without carbon.

2. Add “clear” ammonia enough to bring the level to 5ppm. How much depends on the size of the tank and the strength of the ammonia. Start with 5 drops per each ten gallons of water, measure the ammonia level after an hour and add more, if needed. When you reach 5ppm, note the amount of ammonia it took to get there. Be sure the ammonia you add has no additives, such as dyes, perfumes and detergents. If suds appear when it’s shaken, don’t use it.

3. Add “seed” bacteria to the aquarium. The best sources for these, in order of effectiveness are:

a. Filter material (floss, sponge, biowheel) from an established, disease-free aquarium.
b. Potted live plants. Leave the rockwool on till cycling is complete.
c. Gravel from an established tank.
d. Other ornaments from an established tank
e. Squeezings from a filter sponge from an established tank.
f. The cycle WILL occur without adding any specific source of bacteria, but it may take longer.

4. Test the water daily for ammonia and nitrite. If the ammonia is below 5ppm, add more to raise it to 5ppm again. When Nitrites start showing up, it means that the bacteria are growing and converting the ammonia into nitrite. Continue bringing the Ammonia level to 5ppm. When the nitrite goes to zero again, the cycling is complete (the nitrites have been converted to nitrates).

5. When cycling is complete, do a nearly complete water change to get rid of the excessive nitrates that have developed from this process. Be sure to treat the new water for chlorine and chloramines, if necessary.

6. Add the desired number of fish to maintain the biotope. You don’t need to add the fish a few at a time because you have already grown the bacteria to handle a full load of fish.

7. This whole process should take 2-3 weeks. Using fish to do the cycling would have taken 4-6 weeks, you would have caused stress to those fish, and you still would need to add fish a few at a time.

Have I summed it properly, or made some errors? Thanks for any input.

[Anaxus]

Add water to the aquarium and turn on the filtering system, without carbon
I didn't know about this. Should I remove the carbon filter from my eclipse system?

[C'Man]

Anaxus, Someone in another thread told me that. The rationale was that carbon is used primarily for removing chemicals from the water, short term. That is not what we're after here, so the carbon is not needed. I don't know that it is detrimental to the process, however. Hopefully, someone else will comment on it.

[RTR]

Re: carbon - GAC is short-lived in effectiveness, but it is a better than average biosubstrate. If you have carbon in and your biofilter has established in it, when you replace the carbon you lose the biofiter. So for practical considerations, start with no carbon. After your biofilter is established if you choose to use and replace carbon then you are disturbing the pre-existing biofilter not at all.

Cycle, Stresszyme and similar products have never been shown to contribute to the establishment of a lasting FW biofilter. I would never support any guide which suggested, even with caveats, their use. In fact I would strongly recommend that such a guide not be seriously considered due to its inclusion of products I consider snake-oil. These products will also complicate the testing required during fishless cycling as they contain such ligh levels of nitrogenous material. Item f should IMHO be removed.

Chis suggests dropping the ammonia titer in half after nitrites are detectable. This option seems seldom followed in current practice, but IMHO may well be responsible for the extended nitrite spike many hobbyists experience. It may be a personal peference item, but perhaps both options should be included in the proposed scheme?

Other than these two points, one small and one not trivial, it is quite clearly presented.

[C'Man]

RTR, Thanks for your comments. I will remove that section from my checklist.

[Anaxus]

Ok I will pull the carbon out of my system. But heres my question. I use a elcipse system and there is a pad above the carbon which is used to remove particles from the water(i.e. dirt etc) Should I remove the filter material dump out the carbon then replace the filter material back on the "box"? Or should I just completely remove it?

[RTR]

If at all possible keep your mechanical filter in place - it should not be absolutely necessary during fishless cycling, but this pad is rinsed rather than replaced, is it not?

C'Man - great! If AC does not want to publish the scheme here, we will be glad to include it in AquaSource Magazine at Tom's Place. That would be quite handy to have as a reference URL.

[Anaxus]

marineland says to replace it ever month. How long does carbon normally remain effective?

[C'Man]

I have edited out the reference to commercial bateria products from the recipe I proposed above.