Fluorescent Wiring Question

[AntmanMike]

I am reposting this here because no one has replied in DIY:

http://www.kuattech.com/diag.JPG

I am using 2 Rapid Start T12 40 watt dual bulb ballasts.

I want to have them run 4 20 watt bulbs (2 for each ballast)

Obviously, these bulbs run 20 watts less than what the ballasts are designed for.

I tested my ballast set up on a 15 watt tube, and it gave me snakes and wasnt bright at all, quite dim (medium purple).

Once I put in an old 20 watt that has given off a stable purple on any hood, it had no snakes, and seemed to run more stable.

Would INCREASING a bulbs wattage change the way it acts, and possibly make it brighter? I would assume that 40 watts of power going to a 15 watt bulb would make it super bright, not dim... since on its standard ballast (For a 15 watt) it is quite bright...

[AntmanMike]

You know, this thread has been here an hour, and the one in the DIY forums has been there over a day... yet no replies...

[hatton3]

There is a looong answer to your question. However, it's not found on this board. Go to www.reefcentral.com and do a search on "overdriving flourescents" in their forum. There was a very large discussion about overdriving bulbs - what it sounds like you want to do - on their board a couple months ago.

What they found was the best way to do this was to have your two bulb T8 ELECTRONIC ballast wired to fire just one bulb per ballast. However, I've got serious misgivings about this, as it is not UL approved and you are getting the same lumens as if you had two bulbs on the circuit. It also appears from your discription and wiring outline that these ballasts may be rapid start, but they are not electronic ballasts. I don't think you can't overdrive a bulb with a tar and coil ballast. That's probably why you were seeing what you were calling "snakes".

I'd be careful, as you don't want to burn down your house with a non-UL approved wiring situation - your homeowners or renter's insurance might not cover any damage from mis-wiring.

I just bought an IceCap ballast so I wouldn't have to worry about fires. It is expensive, but worth every penny IMHO. You can find them used fairly affordably.

[AntmanMike]

Nonononono... i am using standard wiring, but the two wires from each ballast I am combining so its easier to wire, then I am splitting at the end... same voltage throughout.

The problem is it is a Dual Bulb 40 Watt Rapid Start Tar ballast.

I was testing it on a 15watt and a 20 watt... and both came on VERY dim and snaky...

I dont think the audio wire i used to wire it is up to par.

[carpguy]

I know that when I was wiring up my lights I got dim bulbs and snakes when I accidentally wired them backwards. Switching the wires fixed the problem immediately.

Lamps over a tank of water that I've put a good bit of time and money into, smack dab in the middle of my home, are not a place where I personally would cut corners or try to economize.

[AntmanMike]

No... by combining the wires I have less wires hanging everywhere.. i do plan on changing ballasts and wires soon tohugh.... what do you mean by wires backwards? I tested this on another ballast, pure ballast... with the caps already done, and the same thing happened... I was building my ballast box for 12 hours, to make sure i did it right.

[carpguy]

When I first tried hooking up my lamps I connected the hotline from the ballast to what should have been the return on the endcap and the return to the ballast to what should have been the hot on the endcap. I wired it "backwards". This gave me a very underpowered wavery light. "Snakes" sounds like a good description of it. When I reversed everything I got the steady intense light I was looking for.

Slip gets busy sometimes but he really seems to me to be the resident expert on this sort of stuff. Given time he should show up on his own, but you might try a PM if he doesn't weigh in after a few days. It would make me very uncomfortable to leave my apartment without total confidence in the lamps. The rest of my family is in fire control and they've instilled in me what they like to think of as a healthy paranoia.

I got little plastic loops that screw into the inside of my canopy (they came with my AH Supply kit, but I've seen similar at the Home Depot). There are no hanging wires to snag on something during maintenance. Wires going to similar places are bundled together but the wiring is very standard and very secure.

[AntmanMike]

Could you please draw a simple diagram?

[hatton3]

Originally posted by AntmanMike
Nonononono... i am using standard wiring, but the two wires from each ballast I am combining so its easier to wire, then I am splitting at the end... same voltage throughout.

The problem is it is a Dual Bulb 40 Watt Rapid Start Tar ballast.

I was testing it on a 15watt and a 20 watt... and both came on VERY dim and snaky...

I dont think the audio wire i used to wire it is up to par.

Sounds like you are really frustrated with these lights...

If I'm reading your diagram right, I think I know what your problem is:
It looks like you are combining ballast paths together.

You need to have a red circuit and a blue circuit going back into one yellow (orange in your diagram) circuit.

Right now, you have a blue and a blue going into an orange circuit. And a red and a red going into an orange circuit.

Another way to put it. on your diagram, we'll number from the top bulbs 1,2,3,4. Bulbs 2 and 4 need to be on one orange circuit, bulbs 1 and 3 need to be on the other orange circuit.

You have got 1 and 2 (which come from 2 different ballasts) going into your top ballast only. 3 and 4 going into the bottom ballast only.

Make sense?
I've attached a diagram for you. Try and wire one ballast at a time. It might be easier. In the diagram, the black box at the bottom left is the ballast. The two gray boxes are your bulbs. the purple wire is just jumper wires.

[hatton3]

I looked at your post in DIY forum. You asked if you could combine all the red wires into one wire. All the blues into one blue. What do you mean by this? If you mean tie them together as a bunch of four with twist ties, yes you can do that. If you mean to splice and wire nut them all into 1 single 18 gauge wire, no you can't do that. You'll run into the same problem that I discussed above. THe reason is because you are shorting out the ballast at the splice and wire nut, right as it leaves the ballast.

If that is what you did in the diagram above, than that's another problem that you need to fix besides the orange wires. You have to keep each circuit by itself.

On a sad note, if indeed this is what you have done, when you do wire up the ballasts correctly, they might not work now because they have been shorted and possibly damaged. :(

You said that you might want to buy different ballasts in the future. I'd go with electronic ballasts because there will be only three wires for you to fool with. They are wired differently than tar ballasts. That would satisfy your need to reduce wire numbers running in your hood. You can buy electronic ballasts at home depot or lowes for about $20.

[AntmanMike]

Yes... this is what i did verbally:

Each ballast has 2 red wires, two blue wires, and 2 yellow wires. I combined the 2 red wires into one red wire... the 2 blue wires into 1 blue wire, and the 2 yellow wires into one yellow wire. I am assuming what you mean is that I was supposed to keep them seperate so they dont short? I am not familiar with AC Current, really, as I am good with computer wiring, you know, DC. With DC that wont happen (There is only a HOT and GROUND cable...)

[hatton3]

Yea, I'm afraid that you shorted each circuit out. Each colored circuit goes to a heating element in the bulb, much like the filament in an incandescent bulb. So a red circuit is a circuit of it's own. A blue circuit is a circuit of it's own. Same for the yellow. The circuits heat the element and between the elements on the two ends of each bulb, energize enough electrons to make the flourescent coating glow.

I think where the misconception was is that you thought that red to yellow completed a circuit through the bulb and that blue to yellow completed a circuit through the bulb. At least from what I understand of the way that traditional tar ballasts work, this is not the case.

So, try to run individual red and blue lines to the ends of your bulbs, and send the yellows to the end of one of the bulbs. Then jumper the yellows from the endcap to the other endcap. That will have you all ready to go. :)

[AntmanMike]

unless i have permanent ballast damage...

Looks like I need twice as much wiring lol.

[hatton3]

Let me know how things go - I know how much a struggle lights can be. I was going bald because of my lights 5 months ago. :D

[AntmanMike]

If you have any spare hood/ballasts let me know :)

I might just switch to using an AH Supply 2x55w system... though I really cant afford it.

[hatton3]

Actually, that isn't a bad idea AntMan. I'm sure that there are plenty of people here that have extra stuff lying around and would be willing to donate. Just explain your situation - you might be blessed by the outpouring of help you will receive.

If I had anything, I'd help you out. I just don't have any extra ballasts lying around. :(

[AntmanMike]

If anyone has any things to donate, these are the things I need...

1 30" Strip Light (All-Glass), with nothing in it. Just the case. Preferable the dual bulb type... because of wider base.

Ballasts. Preferably AH Supply, but no one has extras of those im sure.

CO2 system if you have a spare that you will never use. DIY Yeast is bad and it smells. Also bad for aquariums.

Aquarium Silicon :o

Waterproof Fluorescent Sockets.

Anything you have lying around. I really need stuff because I can afford maybe fish food. Most of my stuff is DIY and i can only DIY so much...

I also do not beleive I will be making money any time soon. Maybe if my design works well, I could sell it :o Or maybe breed fish. Dunno. It all depends on donations though.

I am just a 16 year old aquarist who has been doing aquariums for 5 years but has not had one up for 1. I know a lot and helped my friend set up his. I learned from the mistakes of my last tank, and am ready to NOT make them again.

[GulfCstAquarian]

Mike, you have a magnetic TAR ballast and you're trying to use it to run a bulb that it wasn't designed for. With electronic ballasts, they are generally more forgiving since they are load sensing and could run a variety of bulb sizes.

If you want something affordable, yet offers good light, go for some regular screw in Compact Fluorescent bulbs. The kind that are used to save energy in regular light bulb sockets. Most bulbs are a little too yellow and make the fish look poor and grow algae better than plants, but there are plenty of Daylight bulbs with higher color temperatures that you can use.

Here is the label from a 19 watt bulb I got at Home Depot for $7. It has a 6500K color temperature which makes the fish look great and has grown plants in my 15g tank very well.

[AntmanMike]

How do you know it is 6500K?

Also, do I have to still add them up to my desired wattage? For instance, if they are 15 watts each, and i want 90 watts, I need 6 of them?

[AntmanMike]

K i found out another problem also. If you only test with one bulb at a time it will be dim, but when i used TWO bulbs, i blinded myself with light.

[GulfCstAquarian]

These are 19w bulbs, and just three of them would light a 20 gallon well.

You're taking some serious risks with just randomly wiring your setup in various configurations. I hope you're at least wearing eye protection. If you find a combination that works, like the last one. Then you can experiment and leave it running for an hour in a safe area (outdoors, in the basement) but closely monitored the whole time. If the bulbs or the ballast get too hot to touch for more than a second, then you can't run them in that configuration.

The package for the CF bulbs says they are 6500K on the back...

[Gumby7]

There is a fillament similar to a incandecent bulb at each end of the bulb. Depending on the bulb start type this needs to be energized by a specific current for a specific duration in order for the bulb plasma to strike an arc properly. Otherwise you get the snakes as you describe them. (Most magnetic ballasts designed for two bulbs don't work right with one bulb either)

Ballasts come in three different start types: preheat, rapid-start and instant-start. There may be some backward compatiblity with some ballasts but it is always best to select the bulb AND ballast as a combination. That's what the manufacturers say. This will prolong the bulb life too.

There is also magnetic vs electronic ballast designs. Generally the electronic versions are far more energy efficient and often "drive" the bulbs closer to 100% (typically 90% vs 70% for magnetic).

I've posted before about this but in a nut shell if the bulb manufacturer's site says "2000 design lumens" you will only get 70% of that with a normal magnetic ballast.

Instant start don't heat the cathodes (at least the electronic ballasted fixtures I've seen gang both pins to one (1) wire. You can't do this with preheat or rapid start!

Follow the wiring diagram exactly. Its not worth burning down the house to get a few more lumens.

Also, I can't recommend separating the ballast from the fixture and using exposed wire nuts in a DIY wet location. This is not only unsafe it is likely in violation of the wiring code. (To test this try asking your commercial fluorescent fixture supply house what wire to use for your exposed harness. They will probably tell you armored BX cable or the like. Then tell them its a wet location!).

The bulbs also work best if near a grounded sheet metal panel (i.e. the fixture). If you separate them you may get interference on your radio etc.

T8's rock. If you are doing it yourself (and those ballasts are fried) get a 4' shop light, a replacement electronic ballast and two T8 bulbs. Change the ballast and your in business.

Gumby