cherry red massive die off :(:( HELP!

[gagaliya]

I have about 40 cherry red in my 10 gallon q tank, they were all doing well!

The plan is to move them to my new 50 gallon fully planted after it's stable. So i waited about 3 weeks after setting up the 50 gallon just to be safe. Then moved my cherry reds in, and just a few hours later to my horror, the cherry reds are dying by the dozens. The floors were littered with shrimp corpses!!! what is wrong!! please help!!!

I checked the following before moving my shrimp:

1) temperature in both tanks are identical
2) new tank has no ammonia/nitrite(fully planted and all), and nitrate at 10ppm
3) there are no other livestock in the tank, otherthan some tiny snails that hitched a ride when i got my plants
4) ph is stable at 7.2
5) water is treated

I dose (per instructed amount) the tank was seachem plantcare products - Flourish(trace elements), Flourish nitrogen(nitrate), potassium, and Phosphorus. And my substrate is eco-complete. They should all be safe for livestock. A lot of people use them and keep cherry reds.

So what's going on? why are my shrimps all dead. Man this tank has been 1 disaster after another... i should just kept my biorb and saved a lot of headach and money. Big is NOT ALWAYS better....

[gagaliya]

the dying process:

the shrimp will lie on the substrate unable to move, but you can see its tiny legs moving fast just that it cant flip itself over to normal balance. And eventually it dies.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :( :( :( :(

edit: also noticed there are about 5 dead around a plant anchor. I bought it from bigals suppose to be aquarium safe. Could that be why?

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19343;category_id=1577;pcid 1=3349;pcid2=

[Pufferpoison]

you say this tank is one disaster after another. From experience, bigger tanks are easier to keep/maintain then smaller tanks.

I'm wondering what other "problems" you've had with this tank? could it be some kind of residual is in the tank (soap, windex, etc...)

[Pufferpoison]

DId you wash them off before adding to tank?

my plants always have those and no deaths. I'm still thinking something toxic to inverts/fish is in the water.

[tai95]

You could have to much copper in your tank. I know flourish trace has 0.00001% copper. Flourite has 17 mg/kg of copper in it so I'd assume Eco-complete has some copper in it also. You could also have some copper in your water. The copper level in your qt tank was not enough to harm them, but with the extra copper from the other sources it may have been to much.

[Pufferpoison]

Good point, don't really know about your dosing / substrate but your LFS should have a copper test kit.

I use a copper test kit for my reef tank and have never detected any amounts as of yet.

[gagaliya]

i am running to the lfs now to see if they have a copper test kit. I only dose half suggested amount of flourish trace. So really dont think the copper in it would kill the shrimp. but maybe from eco complete? dont know:( not that it matters i fished out about 30 dead shrimps (and realized 4 of those are preg too!! ARGGGG).

I know everyone kept saying big tank is easier, but to me they are so much harder to setup. Maybe after it's balanced, maintainence will becoming easier. But right now it's not the case at all.

[Pufferpoison]

this probably isn't the case, but i've read on some fish selling websites that when you get their fish in the mail, even if they look dead and don't move, you must acclimate them anyway, something about osmotic or ph shock? i'll try to find that out.

My point is just make sure their actually dead, and not shocked.

[Gambusia]

copper will kill shrimps

[gagaliya]

copper will kill shrimps
yeah....

hey roan, any reason why you deleted the post about the removing the anchor? although mine is made from penn plex not Lee. I removed it just to be safe.

[reiverix]

If there is detectable copper in your tank it can't be from your substrate or dosing otherwise the shrimp in my own tank would have been dead long ago.

Of course we are all assuming copper here, which makes sense as it is known to be harmful to inverts. Is there maybe anything else that has came into contact with your tank? Soap or some kind or aerosol such as air freshener?

[gagaliya]

down to 2 shrimps now, just saw two more die right in front of me, it would flip over and lie on its back until the legs stop kicking. I already did a 50% water change, what is going on?!:(


no soap etc, am very careful when i work in my tank, always wash my hand thorougly and use those long rubber sleeve gloves i got from big als. Most times my hand never goes in the tank.

The only reason i can think of now is pesticide on the plants? but they have all been in my tank for more than 3 weeks, and before putting it in i rinsed it in a bucket of water?

arg what's going on! this blows.. another 100 bucks down, not to mention all the time and q tank setup i wasted just for those shrimps, only to have them all die in the new tank.. :mad:

gaga
ps forgot it's sunday, petshop closed. will have to go tomorrow after work to get the copper test kit.

[gagaliya]

If there is detectable copper in your tank it can't be from your substrate or dosing otherwise the shrimp in my own tank would have been dead long ago.

Of course we are all assuming copper here, which makes sense as it is known to be harmful to inverts. Is there maybe anything else that has came into contact with your tank? Soap or some kind or aerosol such as air freshener?

i am not too sure it's copper either, because all the tiny snails are doing just fine. If it's copper, wouldnt they die too?

[reiverix]

Can you move the remaining two back to the 10g or did you dismantle it? I would think about doing serveral large back to back water changes, like 75% each change.

I'm trying to rack my small brain here. As far as I know aquarium plants don't get treated with pesticide, at least I hope not or it will cause me to panic. Plus I'm also positive that snails are copper sensitive so it might be worth looking for another culprit. So there must be something in your new tank that's not in your 10g, causing the die offs. Whatever it is, it is fast acting and deadly. For the life of me I can only think of something the tank has come in contact with. Bleach or some other household product. Maybe something outside like people spraying for weeds.

I wish I could be of more help. Cherries are usually quite the little tough guy. My own experience at shrimp killing was when I first set up my planted tank and had so much algae I decided to bleach my driftwood. I had a 5g bucket ready with a 10 : 1 solution of bleach to water ready. When I removed the wood from my tank, 6 amano shrimp jumped from holes in the wood right into the bucket. I got them out as quick as I could but they all died, not straight away but kind of like how you are describing your own misfortune. So take it from me, it sucks, but it doesn't mean you will be unsuccessful with shrimp.

[Roan Art]

yeah....

hey roan, any reason why you deleted the post about the removing the anchor? although mine is made from penn plex not Lee. I removed it just to be safe.
Because yours were Penn Plex and they have "non toxic" on the packaging. Those are the new "safe" ones :)

Roan

[tai95]

If there is detectable copper in your tank it can't be from your substrate or dosing otherwise the shrimp in my own tank would have been dead long ago.

Of course we are all assuming copper here, which makes sense as it is known to be harmful to inverts. Is there maybe anything else that has came into contact with your tank? Soap or some kind or aerosol such as air freshener?

Yes it can be from the substrate and dosing. Flourish does contain copper and I'm pretty sure eco-complete does as well. The difference between your tank and the original posters tank is the tap water. If his tap water has some copper to begin with the little bit from dosing and the substrate could make it lethal. That's why they could have been fine in the QT tank and not in the new tank. I'm not sure why the snails haven't been affected if it is copper. Maybe they can tolerate copper better than the shrimp.

[VTwinFanatic]

I honestly dont think that eco-complete and flourish has enough to kill shrimp or inverts. I have a 30 w/ eco and dose w/ flourish trace and have ghost shrimp in there that have been living for several months. I also have a cherry shrimp breeding tank 5.5 that is planted and i dose it also w/ flourish trace and havent experienced and die offs. I seriously dont think that flourish and eco-complete are the culprite...unless the tap water has "high" amounts of copper

[tai95]

I honestly dont think that eco-complete and flourish has enough to kill shrimp or inverts. I have a 30 w/ eco and dose w/ flourish trace and have ghost shrimp in there that have been living for several months. I also have a cherry shrimp breeding tank 5.5 that is planted and i dose it also w/ flourish trace and havent experienced and die offs. I seriously dont think that flourish and eco-complete are the culprite...unless the tap water has "high" amounts of copper

I don't think they do either, but with everything that was posted those seem to be the only variables between the two tanks. Like I said it could be just enough to make the levels lethal. I may be completely wrong, but having that large of a die off so soon isn't normal. He also said something about plant weights that were in the tank, Maybe they are the culprit.

[daveedka]

On the subject of copper, what other decor do you have? Is it new, used, from a known source? I think it Was RTR that posted once about adding some lava rock that contained copper and see snails deaths until he figured out the source. Either way I'd look at decor as much or more than the other items mentioned.

Dave

[wesleydnunder]

I was wondering that after John's comment. Possibly driftwood leaching.

Mark

[gagaliya]

other than plants, the only decors in my tank are the 4 pieces of petrified wood (from ebay seller who specializes in aquarium decor woods). Here's the ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7754195017&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

I researched into those before purchase too, they are probably the safest rock/wood to put in a tank. They are also boiled fully submerged for half hr, brushed, and soaked for 1+week before placed in my new tank.

I took a large pint of the tank water (before started doing water changes). Will test those tomorrow for copper. From what everyone is suggesting, here are the possible causes:

1) excessive copper - from eco complete / flourish mixed with tap water
2) decor giving off lethal "stuff"
3) plant anchor (really dont think this is the cause, read a couple detailed artcles all pointing to the fact that you need extreme ph level(<4 >9) for lead/zinc to start affecting shrimp/fish)
4) normal water param issues - with such sudden massive death, very unlikely.
5) pesticide on plants - the hairgrass / anubias i did get from singapore plant farms and the seller confirmed the hairgrass was grown submersed. So it is likely they used some type of lethal chemical on it and 3 week in the tank wasnt enough to remove them.

i am hopeful it is high copper, so at least i know how to fix it. Otherwise i am at a loss on what to do, adding any livestock at this point just doesnt sound like a good idea :(

[Pufferpoison]

anything new going on here?

[Hannys_Papa]

My guess would be osmotic shock ?
Some of the Eco complete is known to mess heavily with kH, gH (which is why i decided not to spend money on it). So there could've been a big difference between both tanks. And this is what it seems everyone always talks about on this board - its not the pH difference that creates problems but a difference in gH.

If you didnt acclimate the shrimp maybe thats why they died.

[minnesotagal866]

FWIW, I have eco-complete in both my shrimp tanks and haven't had a problem.

Jackie

[BillyBones]

i know 30 ways to cook a shrimp, but not one to save um, sorry

[rrkss]

Maybe you forgot to dechlorinate? Though most New Jersey Water is chlorinated, Bergen and Hudson counties are chlorminated. Chloramines are indefinately stable in the water and could cause the shrimp death.

[EcoPit]

Copper and chlorine are good suggestions, but wouldn't they affect the snails too? What kind of snails are they? If they are just as sensitive to copper and chlorine as the shrimp then you can rule them out.

[Roan Art]

FWIW, I have eco-complete in both my shrimp tanks and haven't had a problem.

Jackie
Jackie,

He's not referring to having Eco-Complete in the tank. He's referring to the transfer of animals from a non-Eco Complete tank to an Eco Complete tank. If there is a large difference in TDS et al, it could cause osmotic shock and death.

Roan

[minnesotagal866]

Jackie,

He's not referring to having Eco-Complete in the tank. He's referring to the transfer of animals from a non-Eco Complete tank to an Eco Complete tank. If there is a large difference in TDS et al, it could cause osmotic shock and death.

Roan


It just seems odd to me--I bought my cherry shrimp from a fish store (non-eco-complete tank) and put them in my eco-complete tank with no problems. Like I said, my info was FWIW and that is probably not very much!!!

It would be great to find out what exactly caused these mysterious deaths--so as to avoid them! I occasionally transfer fish from tank to tank and have never thought about the difference in water due to eco-complete. I've also never had a problem (knock on wood).

jackie

[reiverix]

I remember there was a bad batch of Eco that caused huge spikes in KH and GH. CaribSea (I think that is the maker) acknowledged the problem and replaced faulty bags. That was a while back though, about a year or so. Eco shouldn't alter water chemistry, or at least that is the claim.

Skimming through the thread, I can't see a reference to GH or KH posted. Maybe worth a check, at least to rule something out, or in.

[Roan Art]

John & Jackie,

Oh, I agree! I'd like to know the GH and KH difference between the tanks, too.

FWIW I had 20 cherry shrimp die on me when I started fish keeping, almost the same way his did. They were 8$ each :sad:

Roan

[daveedka]

Copper and chlorine are good suggestions, but wouldn't they affect the snails too? What kind of snails are they? If they are just as sensitive to copper and chlorine as the shrimp then you can rule them out.

I was thinking along these lines as well, But snails can tolerate ammonia, nitrite and chlorine at detectable levels. I have kept snails alive in water with 2 ppm chlorine more than once. I do not know what shrimp will tolreate but I imagine it is far less than snails on the above listed pollutants.

dave

[Peatmoss]

Shrimp need a fully cycled the tank (and I would say beyond fully cycled, like the tank has been up and running with fish making deposits to balance the tank ecology before putting in shrimp). They are also real sensitive to water additives like water dechlorinators. I only use water from established fish tanks for the shrimp to avoid any complications. However, I do have one tank that seems to support shrimp for maybe a month and then suddenly all the shrimp disappear (I never see any dead bodies, but there is a cloud of algae I purposes put in there for the shrimp to eat and I figure they go under there and die, same algae I put in the other shrimp tanks with no problem)--no predators, nothing new in there. The shrimp in all the other tanks are thriving and, as far as I can tell, nothing is different about the death tank except it doesn't seem to be able to support shrimp life including scuds.

[gagaliya]

just to followup on this, i tested copper the day after. It was at 0. I used the AP's liquid copper test kit. And the water was completely clear (no color). So really not sure what's going on still...

cherry red shrimps are extremely hardy, when i started my fishkeeping hobby 7 months ago, i had 6 cherry red shrimp in a biorb that went through hell (high ammonia/nitrite etc). And not a single one died, then they were moved to my 2 gallon unfiltered tupperware box along with 20+ new cherry reds i got from beviking here, again no death. They were moved several more times to a 10 gallon then back to tupperware etc (trying to juggle all the fish) with no deaths AT ALL.

After i sold all my fish, i put them in my 10 gallon tank for 3+ week and not a single death.

Finally moved them all to my 50 gallon tank. And within 24 hours ALL have died. Right now there is 1 single shrimp still alive.

No copper, no ammonia, no nitrite, no chroline/me, 10 ppm nitrate. All dead...

:pc: :pc: :pc: :pc:

[hironobu]

It happened to me as well. Moved my shrimps from my 90G planted tank to my 20G planted tank, even took the water and plants from the 90G to the 20G. But somehow all the shrimps began to die off one by one, only one left now and I still don't know the cause, this blows. :wall:

[Hooked Newbie]

Hironobu- How'd you acclimate them? You may want to create a new thread if you want help finding the cause since this one is fairly old.

Welcome to AC! :)

[gagaliya]

wow thread bought back from the grave! Just remembering all the frustration of setting up this planted tank back then.

Anyway i never got into the shirmp thing again after the mysterious cherry red disaster. To this day i dont have any shrimp in the tank, only snails and fish.

[OhNo123]

Hmm.. Mysterious deaths..It can't be in the Eco-Complete. I have a bag of it. On the bag there is NO copper listed in the minerals. It can't be the substrate. I have shrimp living on Eco-Complete right now! They LOVE the microorganisms and can stay on one piece of gravel for about a minute :)