are hybrids a threat to the fishkeeping hobby? [Archive]

thom336

03-10-2003, 12:25 PM

ok, i thought that maybe i would try a different approach to seeing what people think on hybrids, and get the verdicts. all you have to do is place your vote, bearing in mind that there is no right or wrong answer, it is all your personal opinion. i thought it would be interesting to see how these results compare with those in a poll carried out in the UK by Practical Fishkeeping Magazine. thanks for taking part!

hmmm...not sure if 'vote' was a good word to use, but i cant think of a better one off hand...

one last point...if your answer doesnt fit any of the catagories, then select the closest one. thanks.

wetmanNY

03-10-2003, 4:37 PM

You mean, like Platies and Red Swordtails?

RTR

03-10-2003, 5:41 PM

Very poorly worded, IMHO. Statement one refers to Cichlids only. Statements 2 & 3 are not limiting. Just what are you trying to ask, the limited case of Ciclid hybridization, or all fish? And how do you define "hybrid"? does this restrict breeding between geographic color forms or morphs (as many of the Rift lake Cichlids show), or you refering to the more correct genetic mixing of defined species at the species level only?

ChilDawg

03-10-2003, 6:10 PM

Doesn't this belong in "General Chat"?

Z Man

03-10-2003, 11:26 PM

I don't think they will ever bother the hobby. I just think things should be left alone to nature.

Dragon_Lord_Tia

03-11-2003, 12:15 AM

i fell like most other people the hyrids aree good for the hobbie my chris,luke,matt and tony(my mates at work) were reviewing this and the petition at work and we had a good laugh about the progrestiveness of thom336's posts im might get in trouble for this but i have to say it *itching about how amimals feel pain and stuff like that what me to name evry hybrid that i can think of well i will

1)platies
2)oscars
3)guppys
4)corydorus
5)swordsails
6)gouramis
7)almost all of lake tanganyika cichlids lemon cichlid in perticular
8)most of lake mawai cichlids
9)angel fish
10)discus
11)paradis fish
12)the loved by all siamese fighter
13)loaches
14)weather locaches (made to grow up to 80 cm long instead of 20 odd cms
15)boeseman's rainbowfish
16)puffers
17)scats
18)mosquito fish
19)salmon
20)trout
21)bass
22)cod
23)catfish
24)most native fish which are breed to be more hardy againsed the pest fish carp etc
25)butterfly fish

see my point if you havent had 1 of these fish or seen them at a lfs and didnt look twice on your way back you need a good kicking thom336 stop come on you mush admit you like 1 of these fish

all these fish have been taken from my order form in which it tells me if the fish are ------wild----------native-------hybrids-------diseased and need to be treated

and i got most from the list under hybrids
THINK ABOUT IT WE ALL LOVE HYBRIDS

Z Man

03-11-2003, 12:36 AM

Hey Dragon, All those fish you mention are NOT hybrids! A hybrid is when you take a fish from one genus and cross it with a fish of a different genus. They fish you mention are culled and bred for color but in their own genus'. One fish you did not mention is the Angelfish. In the wild you will not find most of the color morphs available at your local store. They have been selectivly bred from mostly wild stock to bring about all the different color variations. They are still not hybrids! I believe that 'tom336' is talking about "CICHLIDS" such as the parrot cichlid and the now available flowerhorn that they are asking outrageous prices for.

Dragon_Lord_Tia

03-11-2003, 1:31 AM

i think they are hybrids(altouugh closly related platies are mixed with swordtail to make more colourful swordtails etc in which the wild they would not

Faramir

03-11-2003, 2:36 AM

Originally posted by Dragon_Lord_Tia
i fell like most other people the hyrids aree good for the hobbie my chris,luke,matt and tony(my mates at work) were reviewing this and the petition at work and we had a good laugh about the progrestiveness of thom336's posts im might get in trouble for this but i have to say it *itching about how amimals feel pain and stuff like that what me to name evry hybrid that i can think of well i will

1)platies
Yes. Usually a hybrid with a bit of variatus/helleri

2)oscars
Nope.

3)guppys
Nope.

4)corydorus
Nope.

Yes. Often a bit of maculatus/variatus in there.

[quote]6)gouramis
I suspect there are a few Colisa hybrids around, but I'm not sure. Definitely not in the other genera.

7)almost all of lake tanganyika cichlids lemon cichlid in perticular
Nope.

8)most of lake mawai cichlids
Unfortunately there are an increasing number of Aulonocara and Maylandia hybrids around. They are generally rather dull. It's a shame - it's a bit like mixing plasticene - it ends up brown.

9)angel fish
Nope. The common ones are all P. scalare. P. altum is nice, but I've never heard of it being crossed. Probably possible, but not done.

10)discus
Yes, depending on whether you believe there really are as many discus species as some authorities claim. Others say there are only 2.

11)paradis fish
Nope.

12)the loved by all siamese fighter
Nope. There are other Betta species, but the fighter is pure Betta splendens.

13)loaches
Hardly. Most of the buggers are hard to breed at all, let alone crossbreed.

14)weather locaches (made to grow up to 80 cm long instead of 20 odd cms
Only one species I know of - Misgurnis fossilis. What do you propose it has been crossed with?

15)boeseman's rainbowfish
Nope.

16)puffers
Hardly - see my comment about loaches.

17)scats
Ditto.

18)mosquito fish
News to me.

19)salmon
Do fish farms hybridise? Again, news to me.

20)trout
Ditto.

21)bass
Nope.

22)cod
And who, exactly, is breeding cod?

23)catfish
Could you be more specific?

24)most native fish which are breed to be more hardy againsed the pest fish carp etc
Nonsense. These are not hybridised.

25)butterfly fish
Impossible - there is only one species in the entire family Pantadontidae - what would it hybridise with.

see my point if you havent had 1 of these fish or seen them at a lfs and didnt look twice on your way back you need a good kicking thom336 stop come on you mush admit you like 1 of these fish

all these fish have been taken from my order form in which it tells me if the fish are ------wild----------native-------hybrids-------

Your supplier doesn't know what a hybrid is, clearly. A hybrid is an animal which is the offspring of more than one species. Note species, not genus. Most hybrids are within a genus because animals further apart than that are not generally genetically compatible.

diseased and need to be treated

and i got most from the list under hybrids
THINK ABOUT IT WE ALL LOVE HYBRIDS

goldfries

03-11-2003, 3:02 AM

gotta agree with Faramir.

don't get confused cross-breeding, line-breeding and hybridization.

ChilDawg

03-11-2003, 6:57 AM

Faramir, I have two points of contention on your list, and one clarification, but I generally agree with you.

Clarification: Misgurnus anguillicaudatus is also known as a Weather Loach in the U.S. However, crosses between the two are unknown at this point.

Contention 1: Though Astronotus is considered to be monotypic by most, there is a growing movement to split that genus into multiple species. If that happens, then our beloved Oscar will likely be a hybrid.

Contention 2: I have read that any Siamese fighter with the irridescent green is a cross between Betta splendens and B. imbellis. However, some scientists are now doubting the status of B. imbellis as a species, and there is a movement to make it a junior synonym of the ubiquitous B. splendens.

HTH,

Matthew

thom336

03-11-2003, 7:29 AM

Originally posted by Dragon_Lord_Tia
THINK ABOUT IT WE ALL LOVE HYBRIDS

looking at the results of the poll at current, your statement it appears would need to be re-thought. 4 people have claimed they feel hybrids to be a threat to the hobby, and 6 claim they dont have a particular liking for hybrids, but do not see them as a particular threat. 8 have claimed they have no problem with hybrids, and i respect that decision and do not want to confuse people by them thinking that i think otherwise. i just wanted to see what people thought. the actual poll i used is the one that was used here in Britain by practical fishkeeping magazine, and i kept it the same so that i could compare the results more acurately.

my thanks go to everyone that have put their poll vote forward so far, and to those that continue to do so.

beviking

03-11-2003, 8:00 AM

Uh, Faramir, I'm in a bit of mid-morning daze right now so you can decide if this is hybridizing ,line breeding, or cross breeding. The Brown Trout (Salmo trutta) has been bred with the Brook Trout (Salvelinus fontinalis) to create the Tiger Trout. Brook Trout and Lake Trout (Salvelinus namaycush) are crossed to produce Splake. I'm quite sure the Striped Bass (Morone saxatilis)has also been hybridized. Just a FYI.

As for the poll, in general, I could care less if fish are hybridized, line bred, cross bred, or cross dressed for that matter! For the hobby, I think it helps it b/c it offers more variety. The average hobbyist doesn't care what the parents were, as long as the fish is desireable to that person they'll buy it. Just my opinion.

thom336

03-11-2003, 8:15 AM

you know, through all the years i have kept and bred domesticated guppies, i dont think i have enjoyed it more than the ones i brought home acouple of days ago. the females are almost as colourful as the males, they are very friendly fish - constantly pecking at my finger when i put it in the water - and they all appear perfectly healthy. i was first introduced to guppies, and fishkeeping for that matter, by my grandfather. he had had a great year of breeding with his guppies, they were turning out in their hundreds. but out of about 300 fry, there were about 3 deformed. the male parent was obtained from a different source from the female parents, and afew months after the females - so they wernt from the same brood. but the fact that they produced deformed fry at 1 in 100 shows just how intensly this fish has been bred. i in turn bred the fish he gave me, with a male from another brood, and again there was a deformed fry, but thankfully just the one. about 50 fry were produced overall from that brood.

Faramir

03-11-2003, 8:21 AM

Originally posted by beviking
Uh, Faramir, I'm in a bit of mid-morning daze right now so you can decide if this is hybridizing ,line breeding, or cross breeding. The Brown Trout (Salmo trutta) has been bred with the Brook Trout (Salvelinus fontinalis) to create the Tiger Trout. Brook Trout and Lake Trout (Salvelinus namaycush) are crossed to produce Splake. I'm quite sure the Striped Bass (Morone saxatilis)has also been hybridized. Just a FYI.

That's why I didn't issue a definitive about it. My main concern was the implication that virtually all our aquarium fish were hybrids, when they are not.

What I find interesting is the idea that all these fish were marked as "Wild, native or hybrid". I'd suggest that the majority of aquarium fish are none of these.

thom336

03-11-2003, 8:27 AM

the actual definition, as far as i know, for aquarium bred fish, including those that are line and cross bred, is 'domesticated', so maybe that is one that should be added to the list.

thom336

03-11-2003, 8:29 AM

do you know what the annoying thing is? because i started this poll, it appears that i cant vote in it...lol. ah well...just in case any of you are wondering, i would probably go for the middle option.

VoodooChild

03-11-2003, 11:27 AM

Actually I believe the bosemani can be crossed with praecox, but I'm not positive.

Tiger15

03-11-2003, 6:39 PM

There should also be a distinction between selective hybridization versus random hybridization.

Without selective hybridization, there won't be so many colorful live bearers to choose from. Wild live bearers in general are rather dull in color. The same thing is true about fancy Discus. It took many years of hard work to selectively cross breed different species or varieties to come up with rainbow color discus we have today.

Random hybridization, on the other hand, produces dull, blend-in fish that lower the quality of the species. These fish should never be sold back to the trade to contaminate the pure species.

I support selective hybridization with a clear goal of creating certain desirable quality. I am strongly against circulating random hybrids in the hobby to lower the quality.

ChilDawg

03-11-2003, 6:42 PM

Intelligence is the essence of the last post by Tiger 15. I just want to know what I am getting when I get a fish so that I may work with species or known hybrids rather than some amalgam of random fish. It is not a threat to our hobby to create known hybrids, though it may be if they are seen to be cruel, Frankenstein-esque monsters.

AntmanMike

03-11-2003, 6:50 PM

Thom, the fact that you have made several threads about this matter including your opinions about "Boycotting Hybrids" makes me think that you would choose the top one...

There are many hybrids out there. Sure, they dont occur naturally, but so what. As long as it does not cause the product of the hybridization undue harm, I dont care.

The only people I can imaging having problems with it are Religious peoples, who prefer to think of all living things as pure creations of their various gods. This leads to the movements against Genetic Engineering, Cloning, and Hybridization.

Being atheist, I could care less what they do, as long as it does not cause undue harm to anything.

AntmanMike

03-11-2003, 6:53 PM

Originally posted by Tiger15
Without selective hybridization, there won't be so many colorful live bearers to choose from. Wild live bearers in general are rather dull in color. The same thing is true about fancy Discus. It took many years of hard work to selectively cross breed different species or varieties to come up with rainbow color discus we have today.

You are referring to cross breeding, or artificial selection, not hybridization, i think. Cross-Breeding (or Artificial Selection) is the act of purposely breeding certain strains of the SAME SPECIES to create different varieties, for instance, Mendels pea experiments.

Hybridization is the artificial (no species in the wild will make with another species willingly) crossing of DIFFERENT species. A horse and a donkey, for instance, produce a Mule. Like the mule, most hybrids are often Sterile.

ChilDawg

03-11-2003, 6:55 PM

Huh...only religious people have problems with hybrids, eh? Nope, don't buy it. And I won't buy them either. Seriously, I think that fishkeeping purists who are working to maintain the integrity of strains of somewhat rare fish show great divide between the religious and the nonreligious with regard to their opinion on hybrids. I also don't think that you would be able to sell hybrids to members of the ACA, AKA, or most other specialist organizations of that type. (The Betta people pay top dollar for irridescent green fish, which are Betta splendens x Betta imbellis, but that's another story.) I wish that you would talk with some of them, both religious and atheistic, and ask their opinions. You might be surprised.

ChilDawg

03-11-2003, 6:57 PM

Also, Tiger 15 is not referring solely to selcetive breeding. Many livebearers are hybrids, and the Endler's livebearer which is on the shelf today is a prime example. This fish, likely to soon be elevated to specific status, has had its gene pool significantly degraded by guppy crosses over the years, to the point where the eponymous Dr. Endler doesn't recognize them as the same anymore.

Many of the Swords, Mollies, and Platies are hybridizations of multiple Poecilia and Xiphophorus species of fish.

Tiger15

03-11-2003, 8:14 PM

If religious people cannot stand hybrid, then they should never eat because the rice, bread, tomato and many food crop today are hybrid. Religious ladies should never accept roses from their men because the common Tea Rose is a hybrid of several wild species roses.

"A horse and a donkey, for instance, produce a Mule. Like the mule, most hybrids are often Sterile."

I heard this analogy a lot but it is a totally wrong assumption. Mammal hybrid is very different from fish hybrid. Fish hybrid are typically fertile or else there won't be a threat that they can contaminate pure genes.

I do understand the difference between line breeding and hybridization. But selective hybridization also involves line breeding to fix the trait or else it won't be called selective.

goldfries

03-11-2003, 9:13 PM

LOL. this has nothing to do with religion. it's about one's view towards purist aquaria hobby or not.

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/flowerhorn.html

here's an article for your chewing, but it's about Cichlids.

i may not like LH/BP, but i'm not totally against it either.

but whatever your choice of fish is, make sure you take care of them and that is all that matters.

Rare Cichlids

03-11-2003, 10:42 PM

BTW, Wild Discus are by no means dull. Until recently I was also under this impression. I mean, why else would so much energy have been put into developing different color varieties if they were already very colorful fish. Right?

Take a look at these awsome Discus. Truthfully, when recently looking at this page, it was the only time I ever actually wanted to setup a Discus tank.

http://www.belowwater.com/fish/wild-discus/index.html

Personally I admire these fish far more than any of the other linebred and cross bred forms.

goldfries

03-12-2003, 12:22 AM

line-breeding comes when people decided they want more color variety of a particular species.

i see that as no wrong. some people prefer their discus or oscars or whatever fish to be as close to their natural color as possible. others like them in varied colors. either way, it's not wrong.

hybridization is more like playing with nature, it could or could not be harmful. i see it as not harmful, but i don't like tampering with nature. you don't a scientific name for LH or BP right? ;)

the worse act is not hybridization. the worse act is the act of injecting colors and snipping off the tails of fish when they're young so they grow up to be heart-shaped. i've seen tail-less LH, BP.....and shockingly, even Oscars.

some find it cute and interesting, but to someone who knows how this shape was acquired, it's outright cruelty.

Dragon_Lord_Tia

03-12-2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Faramir

Yes. Usually a hybrid with a bit of variatus/helleri

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

[quote[5)swordsails
Yes. Often a bit of maculatus/variatus in there.

I suspect there are a few Colisa hybrids around, but I'm not sure. Definitely not in the other genera.

Nope.

Unfortunately there are an increasing number of Aulonocara and Maylandia hybrids around. They are generally rather dull. It's a shame - it's a bit like mixing plasticene - it ends up brown.

Nope. The common ones are all P. scalare. P. altum is nice, but I've never heard of it being crossed. Probably possible, but not done.

Yes, depending on whether you believe there really are as many discus species as some authorities claim. Others say there are only 2.

Nope.

Nope. There are other Betta species, but the fighter is pure Betta splendens.

Hardly. Most of the buggers are hard to breed at all, let alone crossbreed.

Only one species I know of - Misgurnis fossilis. What do you propose it has been crossed with?

Nope.

Hardly - see my comment about loaches.

Ditto.

News to me.

Do fish farms hybridise? Again, news to me.

Ditto.

Nope.

And who, exactly, is breeding cod?

Could you be more specific?

Nonsense. These are not hybridised.

Impossible - there is only one species in the entire family Pantadontidae - what would it hybridise with.

Your supplier doesn't know what a hybrid is, clearly. A hybrid is an animal which is the offspring of more than one species. Note species, not genus. Most hybrids are within a genus because animals further apart than that are not generally genetically compatible.

[/QUOTE]

oscars have been bread with banded cichlid thtas how they got blue berry cichlids

fighter fish have been bread with emerald betta (related)but still but create a completly new fish breed

cod/native fish they are breeding native fish to make them more hardy what the hell would you know your not a member of anfp
(Australia Native Fish Protection)or aka(Austalian native fish revival) are you thats what i thourgh

oh ive had this stupid #rap is repedative and immatture

sorry if i get in trouble for this post but it annoys me when people when they come on and say stuff uneducated etc oscars arnt hybrids pitty

goldfries

03-12-2003, 1:17 AM

oscars have been bread with banded cichlid thtas how they got blue berry cichlids

fighter fish have been bread with emerald betta (related)but still but create a completly new fish breed

.........

sorry if i get in trouble for this post but it annoys me when people when they come on and say stuff uneducated etc oscars arnt hybrids pitty

erm..... see. when Oscars have been bred with Banded Cichlids to produce Blue Berry Cichlids, this means that the Blue Berry Cichlids are Hybrids. not the Oscars, after breeding they're still Astronotus Ocellatus. A Hybrid has no scientific name......

you better get your understanding right about hybrid, cos hybrid is the offspring(result/outcome) not the parent.

so if they're used to create a new fish species, they're not hybrids. the CREATED fish is the hybrid.

take for example, the BP and the LH which are good example of hybrids. they're the outcome of 2 normal non-hybrid fish.

Dragon_Lord_Tia

03-12-2003, 2:20 AM

thats my point that the blue berry cichlid is a hybrid and if you have seen a colourful male like my friend has you know what i meen im with hybrids not against they are good for the hobby excpet parrot cichlids their just something you catch out of a sewer pipe in other words a fred/mutant/ugly thing not a fish

goldfries

03-12-2003, 2:24 AM

agreed. i didn't vote against them either.

however you mentioned

sorry if i get in trouble for this post but it annoys me when people when they come on and say stuff uneducated etc oscars arnt hybrids pitty

when read, seem like it annoys you that people come and say uneducated stuff like for example "oscars aren't hybrids" and pity.

which in fact, Oscars aren't hybrids so when they say that actually they're (i won't use the word "educated") knowledgeable.

ChilDawg

03-12-2003, 6:52 AM

Blueberry Oscars are not hybrids in DLT's manner of speaking. They are albino Oscars injected with blue dye. Before you make comments about the lack of education of others, make sure that you have had a thorough education in the subject as well.

Tiger15

03-12-2003, 9:15 AM

All color varieties of Oscar are line bred fish, not hybrid. The first red Oscar was created 30 years ago in Singapore and the line bred varieties have practically replaced the wild type. I don't think Oscar can cross breed sucessfully with any other cichlid because genetically, it is remotely related to all other cichlids.

Flowerhorn is a confirmed hybrid. The rumor that BP is a hybrid between a CA Midas and SA Severum is unconfirmed and highly unlikely because the two species are remotely related. Yet, the rumor continues to circulate and accepted with no question by many including experts and ACA. BP's deformed physique and infertility suggest strongly it is an inbred mutant. Many mutants are infertile because the recessive genes that produce the deformity are fatal when paired up in breeding. These deformed fish do come up randomly in inbred fish but they were typically culled. Unfortunately, the deformed BP were commercialized leading to blanket criticism of hybrid when they are not.

ChilDawg

03-12-2003, 9:26 AM

The esteemed Dr. Axelrod has provided sufficient evidence that the Oscars of the Rio Negro and the Amazon proper can and should be considered distinct species, especially with the variability in juvenile coloration. Whether or not we choose to accept that determines whether or not the Oscar can be considered a hybrid. Blueberry Oscars, however, would just be part of the complex, as they are merely dyed albino Oscars, not anything other than that.

I will back off on that point until the official recognition of the multiplicity of Oscar species is widely acknowledged. I will not back off on the fact that Blueberry Oscars are merely dyed oscars.

aquatix02

03-12-2003, 9:45 AM

my opinion is that as long as these hybrids are not released into the wild where they cause habitat destruction, its fine. but the fact is that most beginning aquarists do not know this, there are risks that many of the waterways and ponds are now teeming with fish that don't belong there.

another point is that we do not know what damage we could be causing by hybridizing a fish and not ensuring that its sterile. if hybrids are allowed to breed, who knows what kind of unnatural grotesque mutations may occur since this hybridiation is not based on natural selection.. (a good example is the flowerhorn)

that's my 2 cents...

thom336

03-12-2003, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by AntmanMike
Thom, the fact that you have made several threads about this matter including your opinions about "Boycotting Hybrids" makes me think that you would choose the top one...

that is why i added that post about which one i would choose, because i had assumed people would be getting that impression - i do not personally like hybrid cichlids, but i will put up with them as there are those of us who do - it is ultimately a personal opinion.

and about this being a religious thing...that actually made me laugh (in a good way...not disrespectal), as my dad is actually a priest. but that isnt the reason i am slightly edging away from them. dont go quoting my use of the word 'slightly'....

i am purely, genuinely interested in peoples views, and it appears that people do have strong views on this topic, and by creating these threads i am giving people the chance to display these views. but they are views, and the way i see it is that you cant pick apart other peoples views, and argue against them pulling in evidence. you can disagree with it, but please dont go getting all 'huffy' about it...

Tiger15

03-12-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by aquatix02
my opinion is that as long as these hybrids are not released into the wild where they cause habitat destruction, if hybrids are allowed to breed, who knows what kind of unnatural grotesque mutations may occur since this hybridiation is not based on natural selection.. (a good example is the flowerhorn)

that's my 2 cents...

Any introduced exotic species can damage the natural ecology, whether or not they are hybrid.

Don't worry about the grotesque mutation introduced to the wild, they won't survive. Many red oscars were released to Florida lakes but the offspring of these red varietoes have all reverted back to the wild type.

Live bearers have been line bred and hybridized for decades but I have not heard of any genetic damage to the wild types. Any genetic impurity affects only the aquarium stock, as wild form of oscar and Midas are near impossible to find today. Don't be naive that we, aquarists, can save the purity of the wild species. Such job belong to government and institutions.

VoodooChild

03-12-2003, 12:48 PM

I would disagree with the responsibility of the government and such. Bird breeders got together and started trading to reduce the stress on wild populations from mass exports. NOW, before someone goes off and starts stating why this isn't similar (it may or may not be), government crackdowns and CITES could only curb what's coming into the country, not the demand, so people with the resources still got what they wanted, whether or not it was good for the birds. As much as a government may try to save Astronotus ocellatus in the wild and prevent it from just becoming the "Red Oscar" in pet stores, it probably is just one organism on a list of thousands that need protection. Aquarists know these animals probably better than most if not all government institutions, and we probably know how they thrive in captivity more than a research institution. Dedicated hobbyists could easily set up the means to do captive bred, wild strain oscar programs. How many people have bred oscars? How many people could just as easily take on wild oscars (or F1s) and still get the satisfaction of raising these fish? Enough to keep the wild strain alive I bet. I'd like to say though, that this is the first debate board in awhile that actually has some meaningful content in it. Have a good day folks.

Black_Phantom

03-13-2003, 4:58 AM

Love the "Religious peoples" reference. Whether it's the need to eat toast with our fried eggs or the fact that one gets their oil changed every three thousand miles, we are all "religious" about something. As far as hydridization goes inform people what it is and let the market decide. Did I mention I'm "religious" about capitalism?

thom336

03-13-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Black_Phantom
As far as hydridization goes inform people what it is and let the market decide.

that was the origional idea, and still is - but both opinions need to be put forward for the market to make the right decision for them, which unfortunately leads to alot of disagreement. as for the definition of a hybrid, which people appear to be debating a bit - a hybrid fish is that which is bred from two or more different species of fish - not a cross between differing colourations of the same species, although the purist aquarist may view these fish to be hybrids.

BluEyes

03-13-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Tiger15
Random hybridization, on the other hand, produces dull, blend-in fish that lower the quality of the species.

random hybridization could definately result in a stronger fish - more diverse genes and all. Just because it's a dull fish doesn;t mean it is of less quality, just not as fun to look at.

BluEyes

03-13-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by ChilDawg
I think that fishkeeping purists who are working to maintain the integrity of strains of somewhat rare fish show great divide between the religious and the nonreligious with regard to their opinion on hybrids.

Can't we all just get along? I mean, we can maintain the integrity of a rare fish, AND breed hybrids at the same time. It's not like your fish get out of the tanks at night and switch around, and it's pretty hard for fish to spawn with two layers of glass seperating them...

BluEyes

03-13-2003, 11:28 AM

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/flowerhorn.html

that article is not so good. i've read it, and really, their reasons are kinda weak...

1. The demand for "new" and "different" breeds of hybrids such as the flowerhorn has lead to a number of cruel practices including tattooing of fish, removal of tails or eyes and intentional damage to the spine.

-This happened even without hybrids. Neon glassfish anyone?

2. They make identification of similar cichlids difficult. The cichlids of genus Aulonocara are a good example of the potential problems associated with identification. The presence of many hybrid Aulonocara would make identification almost impossible.

-oh boo-hoo-hoo. Cry me a river, c'mon "I don't like it because it will make life harder"

3. Hybrid cichlids have the potential to be acidentally bred with "pure" species lines. This has already occured in a number of cichlids commonly kept in the hobby, for example, Vieja synspilus or Amphilophus citrinellum.

-responsible husbandry would prevent this. If you're dedicated to keeping one line, only buy breeding stock from reputable dealers who clearly keep hybrids and purebred strains seperate...

4. The cichlid keeping hobby has responsibilities to the fish it is dedicated to in ecological terms. Although not currently standard practice, pure species may, in the future, be required for re-introduction to habitats currently under threat from urban development.

-you CAN keep more than one tank...

5. Some hybrid fish exhibit particularly deformed anatomical features which lead to troubles feeding, swimming and undertaking behaviour normal to these fishes. This is of considerable moral and ethical concern.

-So, don't breed deformed ones! You cull deformed fry, cull deformed hybrids as well...

BluEyes

03-13-2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by aquatix02
my opinion is that as long as these hybrids are not released into the wild where they cause habitat destruction, its fine. but the fact is that most beginning aquarists do not know this, there are risks that many of the waterways and ponds are now teeming with fish that don't belong there.

this is a problem with 'natural' fish as well... see recent posts about the snakehead

another point is that we do not know what damage we could be causing by hybridizing a fish and not ensuring that its sterile. if hybrids are allowed to breed, who knows what kind of unnatural grotesque mutations may occur since this hybridiation is not based on natural selection.. (a good example is the flowerhorn)

uh, flowerhorn is not deformed at all - very fishy looking (in the normal fishy way)
So what if hybrids are allowed to breed? We will know what kind of offspring they create - right after they hatch and mature a bit! If their genes are that fried, they'll usually have a hard time breeding anyways.
but, don't expect your fish to get eyestalks, legs, arms, etc from hybrid breeding...

thom336

03-13-2003, 11:38 AM

a thought just struck me - can anyone name one good thing that has come out of breeding hybrids? i mean, there are so many wonderful and beautiful fish out there, with so many more turning up. there is a fish to meet everyones needs. so why play frankinstein? i believe nature has its own way of producing new fish...and that there is no need for us to interveen. that said, i do not have any outright problem with hybrids, as long as those who keep them know what it is they are keeping.

Lila

03-13-2003, 11:49 AM

Okay, I just couldn't go without saying it..

What in the world does religion have to do with fish keeping?
Yes, I like some hybrid fish, and I don't like others. I don't need to consult my faith on which fish I plan on buying.

comparing a 'religious person's opinion' on hybrid fish to cloning humans...that's plain silly!

Personally, if I like it, I'm gonna buy it. Whether it's hybrid or not.

thom336

03-13-2003, 12:07 PM

thats the sort of response i wanted from this...one that doesnt put other people down, but at the same time puts the point across very well.

thom336

03-13-2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Lila Boffins
Okay, I just couldn't go without saying it..

comparing a 'religious person's opinion' on hybrid fish to cloning humans...that's plain silly!

ok...just read that. what is the point of putting down other peoples views? i dont see it...plus as far as im aware we had already decided it had nothing to do with religion...

BluEyes

03-13-2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by thom336
a thought just struck me - can anyone name one good thing that has come out of breeding hybrids?

I don't think that's the purpose of our hobby. We don't keep fish for some higher good, we keep them because they look good in our livingroom. I suppose the closest to a higher good that you get out of keeping fish is relaxation...

What in the world does religion have to do with fish keeping?
Yes, I like some hybrid fish, and I don't like others. I don't need to consult my faith on which fish I plan on buying.

comparing a 'religious person's opinion' on hybrid fish to cloning humans...that's plain silly!

You might not realize it, but you just about answered your own question. Hybrid fish falls under the "playing god" category for many, just like cloning humans (or anything for that matter), hence why some may voice a religious objection. (thom, your posts in the last thread did come off sounding a bit religiously inspired)
Personally, I think that:
I "only god can create a ____ (fill in whatever new technology they're objecting to - flight, cloning, etc)"
and humans are capable of doing ____, then are we not gods?

Hey, is the shoe fits! :eek:

thom336

03-13-2003, 12:25 PM

hold on blueyes...try not to get offensive here...there are some people who might take offence from you saying that we have the power of gods. and the last bit of your post suggests that we have the right to use it...i think your treading a very thin line there. should we or should we not keep hybrids, in the end, is upto each of us individually.you think we should...your opinion. someone else might think we shouldnt...their opinion. i dont there are grounds for debating this kind of thing.

BluEyes

03-13-2003, 2:11 PM

Personally, I believe that if there are such things as gods, then they are simply other beings, little different from ourselves at the core, that happen to have greater technology, telepathic powers, whatever...
Anyways, that's getting completley off topic, and into a thread or two of its own (if anyone wishes to reply, please email privately - let's keep this thread on topic)

As for should we use our technology, do we have a right to? Absolutely YES. The technology itself is neither good nor evil - those qualities are human, and what goals the human using the technology has are expressed through their creation.
uh, yeah.... Basically, should we hybridize/clone/gene engineer fish? sure, but to what end? Are you going to make a super-monster-death-ray fish that will eat Hong Kong? Or are you going to make a fish that grows to maturity faster, and has greater vitamin content to help end world hunger (grown only in fish farms, of course!) . Any other technology is the same way. Your car - it could be an instrument of gruesome death, OR you could get a person quickly to the hospital and save their life. It's all whose hands technology is in.
I think the FH is a purely innocent use of technology (assuming no wild release) and should be allowed. They serem to be normal, healthy fish, able to live well, breed, etc...
The BP is questionable, because of the implications of intentionally making a fish that you know will have deformities. Is it ethical to knowingly bring a creature into existance that you know will have significant problems in life? On that point, I say no - making a creature that you know will have deformities is the same as going up to a pre-existing creature and intentionally causing a deformity.

there are more points to get into, but I have to get to class, so I'll pass along the soapbox now...

CyberDrgn

03-13-2003, 2:20 PM

I think hybrids are fine as long as you keep them in your own home. If you sell them to others then they can get mixed in with different fish and eventually you will lose several fish types. Or in other words its fine as long as you don't end up causing other people to think they are getting one fish, and are actually getting hybrids, whether its intentional or not.

ChilDawg

03-13-2003, 3:43 PM

Thanks, Cyber. That was my point, which was quoted and obviously misunderstood above.

Tiger15

03-13-2003, 7:44 PM

Originally posted by thom336
can anyone name one good thing that has come out of breeding hybrids?

A couple good things about selective hybridization are to create more and nicer varieties of fish for our enjoyment, and to reduce exploitation of native species.

The most hybridzed fish are live bearers and discus. They gave us choices of color varieties that we can't find enough in the wild. There is virtually no exportation of native live bearers today because hybridized fish have satisfied our need for superior color and quality. Hybridized discus are in far greater demand than wild discus which helps to reduce the exportation of wild discus .

African cichlid aquarists are the staunchest advocate for pure breed. Dedicated aquarists are looking for F0 and F1 fish which help support the export industry. Every exporter is hunting for the newest and rarest varieties to the extent of naming new varieties that have subtle difference from what we already have. It is the purest who help sustain the exploitation of native species.

goldfries

03-13-2003, 10:24 PM

seriously there's nothing wrong in keeping hybrid fish. [removed] why can't you have hybrid fish?

1. as long as it makes you happy.
2. as long as the fish is well taken care of.

with the 2 conditions met, what's wrong?

if someone chooses to be Dr Frankenstein, let them be. you just mind your own business.

if you believe hybridization is wrong then don't do it. you can tell others, but no forcing.

the only thing that is WRONG is cruelty acts. for example, people snip off the tail of a fish when it's young so that as it grows it looks like some heart shaped fish. i've seen BP, LH and Oscars being that kind of shaped. CRUELTY!!!

i've seen BP with LH markings........this i'm dazed. hehe. i find it's horrid yet funny and rather interesting.

enjoy your hobby ok? let's not lead to name callings. everyone has his/her opinions. we can say, it's up to the rest to believe.

ChilDawg

03-13-2003, 10:45 PM

Very few people keep hybrid dogs. Most keep crosses between breeds, but, unless the dog is crossed with something other than Canis familiaris, it will not be a hybrid.

(This now looks stupid because the original context is no longer available, but I will leave it in case the point comes up again.)

goldfries

03-13-2003, 10:55 PM

hrmrm.......ok. i'll edit my post.

TTman

03-14-2003, 6:57 AM

can I hear an AMEN? the poll speaks for itself.

Originally posted by beviking

As for the poll, in general, I could care less if fish are hybridized, line bred, cross bred, or cross dressed for that matter! For the hobby, I think it helps it b/c it offers more variety. The average hobbyist doesn't care what the parents were, as long as the fish is desireable to that person they'll buy it. Just my opinion.

thom336

03-14-2003, 1:32 PM

Originally posted by Tiger15
The most hybridzed fish are live bearers and discus. They gave us choices of color varieties that we can't find enough in the wild. There is virtually no exportation of native live bearers today because hybridized fish have satisfied our need for superior color and quality. Hybridized discus are in far greater demand than wild discus which helps to reduce the exportation of wild discus .

what exactly have these guppies and discus been hybridized with? because a hybrid is a cross between two or more fish species...and as far as im aware this has not happened with discus and guppies. what you are referring to is the domestication of these fish through selective breeding, producing a wider range of colouration and fin variations. it is not hybridization.

[QUOTE] Origionally poster by goldfries
why can't you have hybrid fish?

1. as long as it makes you happy.
2. as long as the fish is well taken care of.

with the 2 conditions met, what's wrong? [QUOTE]

i do not have a problem with those who keep hybrid fish, and personally feel that those who do have a problem with those who do keep hybrids are just ignorant of other peoples points of view....and i have a lot of respect for other peoples views on fishkeeping, and how they go about it. however, i just dont understand why we do have to create hybrids, there is so much out there already...we could be doing medical research instead of experimenting with creating new fish. i think prorities need to be set...but do not have a problem with the hybrid fish themselves, or with those who think differently.

BluEyes

03-14-2003, 1:58 PM

Originally posted by thom336
what exactly have these guppies and discus been hybridized with?

actually, he said livebearers, presumably referring more to swords and platys, since they are known to cross easily.

i just dont understand why we do have to create hybrids, there is so much out there already...we could be doing medical research instead of experimenting with creating new fish. i think prorities need to be set...

Well, yes and no. Yes, it would be great if the money went towards something for "the greater good of humanity" but really, this is money that a private fish farm is spending. If they weren't using it on hybrids, I'd bet money that they would just buy more breeding and grow out tanks - not donate it to medical research.
Yes, there is ALOT of money in the private sector, and 99% of it is spent for personal/buisness motives. But, that's the nature of the beast. By the same token, you could say to BMW, "why redesign the 3-series, it's excellent already - donate that money to medical research instead". Yes, a nice idea, but unlikely to happen.

Mr.Jingles

03-14-2003, 5:56 PM

I still dont think many understand that hybrids are mostly sterile. Key word mostly because most hybrids' gynetics ARE'NT compatible with eachother. so with this information, you could conclude that hybrids are only a threat because they arent natural and will taint the selection of fish in the hobby, and MAYBE they can reproduce. But they aren't that big a threat otherwise. I still wont buy them tho. Just not my style.

thom336

03-15-2003, 3:03 AM

whoops...my correction on the guppy front.

but it wasnt just the money i was on about when i mentioned medical research...it does take a certain amount of expertise to produce viable hybrids....and that expertise could be put to better use in medical research. but then i guess there is more money to be made in hybridizing fish....

Tiger15

03-15-2003, 7:55 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Jingles
I still dont think many understand that hybrids are mostly sterile.

You still don't get it. Fish hybrids are mostly fertile and normal looking, and this is why there is concern that they can contaminate pure breed. Look at Flowerhorn and the many Malawyan cichlid and live bearer hybrids. They all look normal and can produce fertile youngs, though they may not grow up to look like their hybrid parents. The horse and donkey hybrid analogy just doesn't apply to fish. If two fish are distanlty related, they simply won't produce fertile eggs.

Inbred mutants are often sterile and deformed. Look at Blue Dempsey, balloon Molly, fancy Goldfish and black angels. They are either sterile, have low fertility or produce high fatality fry. I am convinced that Blood Parrot is an inbred mutant, not a hybrid as popularly believed.

TTman

03-15-2003, 9:39 AM

there is MORE THEN 1 SPECIES OF DISCUS. yes the beautiful blues & reds & oranges are HYBRIDS. and guess what? the hybrids are MORE HARDY than the originals.

Originally posted by thom336

what exactly have these guppies and discus been hybridized with? because a hybrid is a cross between two or more fish species...and as far as im aware this has not happened with discus and guppies.

VoodooChild

03-15-2003, 10:40 AM

There are two and in some circles three, S. discus and S. aequifasciatus (I don't know the third). I don't know though they're actually hybrids. I'm sure it's been done, but I think most breeders keep the heckel's and such seperate, and just get the colors through inbreeding more than anything.

scott

03-15-2003, 2:39 PM

Does anyone here have a dog? I have a dog. Her name is red. I adopted her from the Hall County pound. Actually I put her there because she was eating out of the dumpster at my restaurant and I felt guilty so I went back to give her a home. She is a cross between a Dachsund and a Red Bone Coon Hound. I will assume that most of you know what a Dachsund is but for those of you
who do not live in the South Eastern US I will explain a Red Bone.

"Handsome red foxhounds were brought to America by Scottish immigrants in the late 1700s, and Red Irish Foxhounds were imported before the Civil War. By the late 18th century, some coon hunters began breeding for hotter-nosed, faster dogs that were swifter at locating and faster at treeing raccoons. They used the hot, swift Irish hounds in their breeding programs and the Redbone Coonhound evolved into a recognized, respected breed well before 1900. Males - 22 to 27 inches. Females - 21 to 26 inches" (Now thats at the shoulders which you can imagine compared to a dachsund)

This is a quote from the AKC or American Kennel Club. See, they only recognize pure bred dogs. Of which Red is not. So is she now a threat to the dog keeping hobby? Is the Flowerhorn going to be a respected breed in a hundred years? I love my Red Dog!

Tiger15

03-16-2003, 8:08 AM

All dog breed belong to the same Canine species. They are line bred to look different and so in the genetic sense, they are 99.99% pure breed and none are hybrid.

There are at least two distinct wild species of discus, Heckel and the rest. The rest include brown, green and blue discus and probably other color variants and there is subjective classification of whether they are distinct species, subspecies or vairants of a single species.

There are limited genera of live bearers but numerous domesticated hybrids among platies, mollies, swordtails and variatus. Almost none sold in LFS today are pure breed except for feeder fish.

Some one asked why do we want to create more hybrids when we already have so many wild species out there. This is the nature of the hobby. Ask the Orchid and Rose hobbyists why they are competing to produce more varieties each year when there are already thousands out there.

Majority of the purests are African cichlid fanatics. For the purests, why are wild species still being exported from African lakes in large quantity when there are already many domesticated species to pick from. Every exporter is trying to exploit the lake to find the newest variants and give new names to varieties that hardly differ from those we already have. All peacocks were one time classified as Aulonocara nyassae, but now there are a dozen new peacock names of which the fish look only slightly different.

Whether one likes hybrid or not is a personal choice. Hybrids are good to the hobby if they are developed methodically to improve the quality the same way discus and live bearers hobbyist have been doing. They are bad only if they are randomly produced and throw back to the circulation.