Chloride a Problem?????

daveedka

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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Columbus, ohio
Lewt me start by saying this is theory, with little to nothing proven or even fully investigated yet.


For some Time I have been fighting plant growth issues, and to a large extent those issues have been species specific. In other words, Many plants do fine, other plants just won't grow.

I have explored the defeciancy side of the equation repeatedly for quite a while, and have posted here about water hardness, Mineral levels and so on. For more information on what has been previously discussed read/ browse these posts.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65367
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47328

Recently Reiverix Is on the same water source and has experienced a lot of the same issues.
We both Dose CaCl in large quantities as calcium defeciency seems to be one of the majo issues we have. Recently Reiverix sent me a PM with the idea that maybe it isn't something we need more of, but someething we have too much of causing our problems.

I don't still have the PM, but essentially Reiverix has found some information on public waterways that indicates Chloride has a negative effect on many plants. The study was on Lake mendota in Wisconsin, The chloride levels in that lake have elevated over the years via the use of road salt. Despite the fact that Chloride content of Lake mendota is far far below the normal concern level scientisits believe that the chloride is causing problems with some of the native plants, and that continued increases in chloride will eventually cause a lot of problem. hoepfully Reiverix will link the article for anyone to read.

Either way, Reiverix and I both decided to start dosing calcium via a source other than CaCl to see what if any effect it might have on our plants. Last week I did my water changes and used Barrs GH booster to replace calcium. The results were unbelievable. My plants literrally exploded in growth. I have larger leaves than I have ever had on several plants, and had more verticle growth than I have ever seen. The problem plants appear to be recovering, but it will take several weeks to know for sure.

The GH booster used leaves a lot of variables as I cannot find any good information on mix ratios or dosing reccomendations. I know it contains Pottassium (Which I was already dosing large quantity) Calcium, magnesium, iron (already dosing as well) and manganese.

Iron , pottassium, manganese, and magnesium I have already dosed via compounds that do not include chloride. only the calcium was adding chloride to my tanks. So theoretically the only real thing I changed was chloride additions.

Now for the questions/ discussion

Since we were dosing large quantities of CaCl, is it possible the Cl was too high for the plants?

Is there any good information that anyone knows of on this subject?

Is there any information out there that refutes this idea as complete bunk?

Has anyone else seen this issue arise with chloride and plants?

As this is completely theory at this point, I am really interested in anyones thoughts and science so feel free to discuss openly any ideas you may have.
In the mean time, I'll try to fiugure out some basic dosing guidelines for GH booster. Reiverix is using Equalibrium which is the same ingredients as GH booster. I have also ordered some CaNO3 since I can use it to sway the ratios if needed while dosing my NO3.

Dave
 
Just throwing something in here, but what source of calcium is used for dosing in Marine tanks? I assume that seachem or someone else makes a calcium suppliment? Would it be a useful addition?

As for chlorides, well not that I really thought about it until now but, I had always used a salt tonic in my betta tanks when I first started keeping fish but not in my main community tanks. My betta tank plants were always much sadder looking than my other tank. It may have also been due to less nutrients as well, I'm not sure. But it is an interesting thought.
 
I'm following this one closely, I am :)

Does John use part calcium carbonate as you do, Dave? If he doesn't, and chloride is a factor, then his plants would show more "retarded" growth than yours do, no?

FWIW I can't believe how red my aromatica are getting. CO2 is VERY low, yet they are reddening up very nicely with the Ca I'm putting in. I'm using half and half chloride and carbonate and I use Tom's booster.

Roan
 
John has used both CaCl and CacO3. Our water is low everything so it takes a certain amount of CaCo3 to bring Kh up but this still leaves us needing more Ca and that is where the CaCl has come into play.

John has a slight advantage over me in the dosing department. He is home everyday, I'm gone most weeks. This allows him to daily dose N and p if needed and he also spreads his trace dosing out. Mine all has to go in in one shot and last all week. I have always attributed a part of my struggles to this fact, but recently we have seen some of the same problems with the same plants. Additionally I have never ever been able to get Vals to grow well, while John has had some success.

TKOS, I am pretty sure the common source is Calcium Sulphate (CaSo4) John tried to source it on-line and found it to be expensive, so he opted towards the equalibrium. I already had a bag of GH booster that I bought to experiment with so I went that route.
I have been on the e-mail with Gregg Watson today and found that he does have CaSo4 it just wasn't listed on his site. He is sending me a bag of that as well, and I'll figure out what I like the best.

Barrs GH Booster and Equalibrium both are heavy in K, I don't mind this, but it makes dosing a little harder to track. I like to add one thing in a specified quantity rather than adding a product that has a lot of things in pre-arranged amounts. If on the other hand I find out that a specified quantity of GH booster will serve my entire dosing need on all nutrients it contains then I will probably end up liking it.


dave
 
This is the link about the chloride.

Hold the salt

The article is about halfway down the page (but the whole thing is quite a good read), titled 'Hold the Salt'. They do not target calcium chloride, sodium chloride or any other salty substance, but just chloride in general.

TKOS said:
Just throwing something in here, but what source of calcium is used for dosing in Marine tanks? I assume that seachem or someone else makes a calcium suppliment? Would it be a useful addition?
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The calcium dosed in marine tanks is kalkwasser - Ca(OH)2. I use it in my own reef via a drip at night. I'd be wary about using it in FW unless I heard positive from someone who uses it. I couldn't find anything on google about people using it in FW, but I didn't search too hard.

daveedka said:
John tried to source it on-line and found it to be expensive, so he opted towards the equalibrium. I already had a bag of GH booster that I bought to experiment with so I went that route.
I have been on the e-mail with Gregg Watson today and found that he does have CaSo4 it just wasn't listed on his site. He is sending me a bag of that as well, and I'll figure out what I like the best.
Click to expand...
I think the CaSO4 I looked up was some kind of ultra pure product, probably overkill for our needs. I might talk to Greg and source some along with GH Booster. I also prefer dosing everything separate just for the feeling of being in control, plus it works out a bit cheaper in the long run.

I'll finish up by saying that on my last water change (Friday) I added two tbsp of Equilibrium with no additional Ca, Mg or K. I can say with certainty that my rotala macaranda has taken off nicely and my stellata is finally showing some color.
 
reiverix said:
The calcium dosed in marine tanks is kalkwasser - Ca(OH)2. I use it in my own reef via a drip at night. I'd be wary about using it in FW unless I heard positive from someone who uses it. I couldn't find anything on google about people using it in FW, but I didn't search too hard.
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What about adding crushed coral directly to CO2 reactors? My husband is setting up a calcium reactor for his reef and after I read what you guys were thinking about the chloride, I couldn't help but wonder about that.

I'll finish up by saying that on my last water change (Friday) I added two tbsp of Equilibrium with no additional Ca, Mg or K. I can say with certainty that my rotala macaranda has taken off nicely and my stellata is finally showing some color.
Click to expand...
But how do you get that darn stuff to DISSOLVE? Every time I use it, I get lumps! It reminds me of mixing flour + water to make gravy -- reminds me, I'm going to try THAT method today. In the meantime, what's the secret?

Roan
 
John,
I do know of some folks who have Used Kalk.. in Freshwater without issue. I thought it was CaCo3, I never knew it was something else.

If you arder from Gregg, Let me know. I forgot a couple of things I needed to order from him. As far as That goes, He is sending me some extra items (Like a bag of CaSo4) I will gladly split quantities until we decide waht we want to use. I believe I already owe you some money Since I said I go splits on the stuff you ordered last week.

I'm on my way to Missouri Today, but will be home Friday. I'll have all of the stuff by then and we can get together and swap out chemicals Just like the kids in the neighborhood :D

If last week was any indication, I'll probably have a 5 gallon bucket of plants to sell or give away By Friday. I was trying really hard to Not mess with anything for at least two weeks, but ended up needing to trim my Temple and pennywort this weekend. Both threatened to overtake the tank if I didn't do some pruning.

The big indicator will be my ammannia, which never grows more than two inches before the tips die off and new side shoots start. and of course that crinium you gave me a year ago which has never died and at the same time it has never reached more than 6" in height.

Dave
 
Roan Art said:
But how do you get that darn stuff to DISSOLVE? Every time I use it, I get lumps! It reminds me of mixing flour + water to make gravy -- reminds me, I'm going to try THAT method today. In the meantime, what's the secret?
Click to expand...
I just scooped it into the mixing barrel. It's a 35g bucket but I do have an 800gph pump in there. It's quite the whirlpool :) The water turned slightly milky for about an hour though.

Dave, the one thing I noticed about ammania is that it does better in my grow out tank where I can give it a lot of space and time to establish itself. At around eight inches high I move it to the main tank and if it takes off, it produces the most beautiful plant. It seems to do better if I trim it before it gets to around three inches from the water line.
 
Believe it or not, I have never worked with soft/low TDS water. If I wanted to breed very soft-water fish, it was blended DI or RO with tap, and never long-term. My current rap (last 29 years) is moderately hard and alkaline, a delight to work with and very low in native chlorides.

Tom Barr has worked with very soft source waters - are you a member at his site? I'd try to get him imvolved, he is adept with ion conflicts.
 
RTR said:
Tom Barr has worked with very soft source waters - are you a member at his site? I'd try to get him imvolved, he is adept with ion conflicts.
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Thank You!

I'm suprised no one mentioned Tom before now.

I Second the motion to get Tom Barr Involved.

You may want to post this issue over on APC boards as well!

:cool2:
 
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