Betta BS

[Abilor]

Set a betta newbie straight... I've read throughout these forums that Bettas are happier in a 10G tank, with a suitable heater, and adequate filtration. I didn't really give it another thought until I went into the local Petsmart, when I suddenly became aware of just how much cruelty goes on in that place since I started really digging into these forums and paying attention to my tank.

While I was there, a woman came in with her daughter, and explained to the girl working that she was surprised her betta in a 2.5G had died, since she had "used spring water and a filter." No heater, small tank. The girl explained that the fish was probably stressed, needed more chemicals added to its water, etc, and that the water should only be changed once a month, at most. No mention of heaters at all. None of this made ANY sense to me, so I couldn't resist chiming in. "Do you know your ammonia levels?", I asked, and she said no. I explained ammonia test kits. I also mentioned that from what I have read, bettas will prefer a 10G, which is not overkill, contrary to popular belief. At that point, the emplyee chimed in, "I really wouldn't recommend a 10G tank", she said, giving me a dirty look, "since bettas swim slowly with their fins, and they need to reach the surface to breathe." This is the same girl who mauled my neon tetras on the counter when they jumped out of her net (they later died), and didn't know the difference between java fern and java moss.

I gave up quickly, not wanting to cause a scene, but I was fuming in my car. This seemed like ego-based cruelty to me, but then today while I was examining some betta products in the mall, a tag mentioned that bettas can breathe gas close to the water surface.

Set me straight: was I right to be totally pissed off with the Petsmart employee?

Either way, as an educated fishkeeper, does the futility of mass-market fish care get you down/make you mad?

Am I taking this too seriously?

[Larissa]

Bettas can breathe at the surface. If the tank is adequately oxygenated then they shouldn't need to because they can use their gills like other fish. I believe that betta fry must have access to the surface when forming their labyrinth organ but that's not what we are talking about here...
At any rate, my betta swims all over my 55g with no problem. He's not too terribly fast, but his muscles are not atrophied like those of a betta housed in a tiny cup.

[Marinemom]

I would say that you are right and the employee is wrong. The only thing that she apparently said that was right was that the betta can breath at the waters surface. The betta is in the gourmai family and the way I understand this is that this species of fish has what we would call a lung which enables them breathe at the waters surface. That being said, it only makes sense that we would want to give the best conditions for our finned friends. The betta may not NEED a 10 gallon setup, but why not? He will have more room to move around and swim. He will show his colors better, be much happier, and of course healthier. Oh, and by the way, I have floating plants in the tank with my betta and he loves them and that is where he chooses to sleep.

Be happy!

Marinemom

[flyfly]

for the most part you are correct. More room is always good for a fish. As far as the betta goes, it is a labrynth fish therefore it needs some open surface to draw gas from. I have mine in a 55g community and I seem him do it frequently. As for bettas being so slow they cant hit the surface in time in larger tanks, well, thats insane. Bettas arent even as slow as you think. I saw mine get into a fight with my female gold ram and it swam in for a strike so fast I barely saw it. :devil:

[flyfly]

Either way, as an educated fishkeeper, does the futility of mass-market fish care get you down/make you mad?

Am I taking this too seriously?

Theres not much you can do about it. I have found the easiest and most fullfilling way of dealing with this is to find a knowledgable store and go there a lot. I still go to big chains... I just dont get involved with them :D

[PurePerfection]

I'm not an advact for giving betta's 10 gallon tanks. I've kept betta's all my life and I feel at least one gallon is needed. However I did keep betta's in in bigger tanks they never used them. When I kept my crowntail in my 5.5 gallon he would consently flare at his reflection which is bad for the fish. He's not in a 1/2 gallon bowfront and I hange the water daily. He seams happy, he blows a bubble nest every day. All in all it's about water qaulity. Betta's come from shallow, tight, oxegen starved waters, so it's not like they come from a great invoroment. In the end keeping temp as stable as you can and giving good clean water is more important that 1 gallon or 50 gallon for it to swim. Again though I only go by my experince. I've had a dozen betta's in everything from a pickle jar to a 20gallon tank and noticed no difference in how long they lived or there activity. Again this is just what I've experinced.

[DaisyTattoo]

I have also had several betta's. Some kept in 1 gallon tanks, some in 10g tanks and 1 in a 55g tank and I can tell you from personal experience that the ones in the larger tanks are happier and heatlhier and live longer lives. When the bettas are in the 1g tanks, they just sit around doing nothing, give them the room to swim and they will. But you have to give them time to adjust to the size of a larger tank. My betta in my 55g is probably the happiest most active betta I have ever had and he has NO PROBLEM getting to the top of the tank for air. I am against keeping bettas in very small bowls because it does cause their muscles to lose tone and therefore makes it harder for them to swim if ever given the chance. Bettas naturally come from SE Asia and live in rice paddies. The paddies do mostly dry up just before the monsoon season, however, the bettas are only meant to live in small quarters for a very short period of time. Here is a link to a site that has pics of the rice paddies. Tell me if that looks like 1/2g of water to you
http://www.bettadreams.com/ricepaddies.html
Just because the CAN survive in it doesnt mean they should have to. Camels are made to withstand sand storms, but should they have to spend their entire life in one? No, I dont think so. So before you go saying that bettas live in tiny little puddles in their natural habitat, maybe you should do more research. I dont know about you, but I want my bettas to have the best live possible, not just to survive for 2 years. Oh and BTW, a betta cannot flare itself to death. My betta in my 55g likes to flare at his reflection, and he usually does it every day, but he gets bored and gives it up. Its not like they are going to starve bc they are too busy flaring at themselves. Sorry to rant, but I am SO SICK of people mistreating their bettas. Pure, its great that you do regular water changes, and that does help with keeping them happy, but 1/2 of water is much too small. No fish should have to live in that and they shouldnt even make tanks, bowls whatever, that small IMO.

[PurePerfection]

I have also had several betta's. Some kept in 1 gallon tanks, some in 10g tanks and 1 in a 55g tank and I can tell you from personal experience that the ones in the larger tanks are happier and heatlhier and live longer lives. When the bettas are in the 1g tanks, they just sit around doing nothing, give them the room to swim and they will. But you have to give them time to adjust to the size of a larger tank. My betta in my 55g is probably the happiest most active betta I have ever had and he has NO PROBLEM getting to the top of the tank for air. I am against keeping bettas in very small bowls because it does cause their muscles to lose tone and therefore makes it harder for them to swim if ever given the chance. Bettas naturally come from SE Asia and live in rice paddies. The paddies do mostly dry up just before the monsoon season, however, the bettas are only meant to live in small quarters for a very short period of time. Here is a link to a site that has pics of the rice paddies. Tell me if that looks like 1/2g of water to you
http://www.bettadreams.com/ricepaddies.html
Just because the CAN survive in it doesnt mean they should have to. Camels are made to withstand sand storms, but should they have to spend their entire life in one? No, I dont think so. So before you go saying that bettas live in tiny little puddles in their natural habitat, maybe you should do more research. I dont know about you, but I want my bettas to have the best live possible, not just to survive for 2 years. Oh and BTW, a betta cannot flare itself to death. My betta in my 55g likes to flare at his reflection, and he usually does it every day, but he gets bored and gives it up. Its not like they are going to starve bc they are too busy flaring at themselves. Sorry to rant, but I am SO SICK of people mistreating their bettas. Pure, its great that you do regular water changes, and that does help with keeping them happy, but 1/2 of water is much too small. No fish should have to live in that and they shouldnt even make tanks, bowls whatever, that small IMO.Misstreating? Get over yourself. I had one live in a fish bowl for 6 years. How long have your lived? Yeah get off my back beacuse your not going to change my opinions or experince. You want to talk about misstreating, your 55 gallon is so overstocked it's not even funny. 55 is okay for a pair of angles, sharks should be one to a tank and that's just two problems. Oh and BTW betta's flaring IS bad for them, it stresses them out. Hate to tell you. Next time you want to rant on me, don't!

[DaisyTattoo]

Misstreating? Get over yourself. I had one live in a fish bowl for 6 years. How long have your lived? Yeah get off my back beacuse your not going to change my opinions or experince. You want to talk about misstreating, your 55 gallon is so overstocked it's not even funny. 55 is okay for a pair of angles, sharks should be one to a tank and that's just two problems
I'm not trying to change your mind, just letting others know that you are incorrect. As far as my tank goes, I am well aware that I should only have one pair of angels, I am waiting for them to pair up. As far as the sharks go, I am aware of that as well, they are juvies and one is going to a new home in a couple of weeks. Obviously you are fishing for a reason to lash back b/c I have proven you wrong. But thats okay...no skin off my back.

[mduros]

IMO any mass marketing of a living sentient being is wrong. I take it VERY seriously. However, not alot of people feel the same or agree. I have a dear friend who takes better care of her guinea pigs than alot of people do of their cats or dogs. But she has these hanging bowls in her house with scented candles beneath them, and one bowl she keeps a betta in, the other she keeps two neon tetras in. These are living, feeling creatures, not decorations. They have social and environmental needs, and this is a cruel practice, but lots of people do it out of ignorance. Her former bettas died after a few months and this is her second try at it. And I'm sure that the people at PetSmart told her that it's just fine and that these fish don't need alot of room, heck they sell their bettas in cups. It's all very sad.

My two bettas don't have 10 gallon tanks, but they have 5 gallon, filtered, heated, planted tanks and seem happy and healthy. They used to be in my community tanks but I had compatibility issues with other fish and they got their fins all nipped off, so I had to move them out.

I'm proud of you for speaking up. I don't do it anymore, but when I did I felt like I was talking to brick walls.
Take care,
Mary.

[PurePerfection]

I'm not trying to change your mind, just letting others know that you are incorrect. As far as my tank goes, I am well aware that I should only have one pair of angels, I am waiting for them to pair up. As far as the sharks go, I am aware of that as well, they are juvies and one is going to a new home in a couple of weeks. Obviously you are fishing for a reason to lash back b/c I have proven you wrong. But thats okay...no skin off my back.Explain how you've proven me wrong? Please do. Because you believe that giving a fish 55 gallon for no reason is better than 1 gallon for it? Because you believe they only live two years in a bowl. Well your the one whos wrong and angles and sharks grow very fast so unless they're in your tank for only a couple of months you've already stunted them.

[DaisyTattoo]

Please, If you think an angel or a rainbow shark will become stunted in a 55g you are seriously mistaken. I would like to see proof of your point. I have proven you wrong on the fact that bettas live in as you put it "shallow, tight, oxygen starved waters" I even provided you a link to pics of their natrual habitat. Did you even bother to look? Probably not. Anyway, I do have a reason that 55g is better than 1g, first of all filtration makes a huge difference, also bettas need a temp 78-80 which is very hard to provide in a tank that is not large enough for a heater. Bigger tanks have more stable water conditions. I do regular water changes on my tank and I also test my water. Do you even do that? Thanks Mduros, I normally dont say much about it, but this time it just really got to me, not sure why. I guess it's b/c it is in the newbie section, and I dont want new people to think that keeping bettas in tiny tanks with no filtration or heat is okay. And yes, it is like talking to a brick wall.

[PurePerfection]

Please, If you think an angel or a rainbow shark will become stunted in a 55g you are seriously mistaken. I would like to see proof of your point. I have proven you wrong on the fact that bettas live in as you put it "shallow, tight, oxygen starved waters" I even provided you a link to pics of their natrual habitat. Did you even bother to look? Probably not. Anyway, I do have a reason that 55g is better than 1g, first of all filtration makes a huge difference, also bettas need a temp 78-80 which is very hard to provide in a tank that is not large enough for a heater. Bigger tanks have more stable water conditions. I do regular water changes on my tank and I also test my water. Do you even do that? Thanks Mduros, I normally dont say much about it, but this time it just really got to me, not sure why. I guess it's b/c it is in the newbie section, and I dont want new people to think that keeping bettas in tiny tanks with no filtration or heat is okay. And yes, it is like talking to a brick wall.Yeah when you put that many you stunt them God you are so stupid you can't even set up a 55 gallon tank properly and you try and tell others about giving betta's 55 galon. Yeah how deep are the rice pads? about 10-12inches at the very most. The are also dry almost 6 months out of the year or didn't you know that

[DaisyTattoo]

Wow, ya know you were starting to tick me off until I looked at all your posts and found that on almost every one you have started an argument. So I'm not gonna let you get to me. I have studied all of the fish I have in my tank and I know what temps the should be at, how large they are going to get and what needs they have. You are the ONLY person on this site or any others that has said my tank is overstocked and so far you are one of the biggest :troll: I have seen yet. You make it look like you arent a :troll: but when going through your posts I find that you are. You arent looking for actual advice from people who really know what they are talking about, you are just looking for people to agree with you , and from what Ive seen that hasnt been happening and you dont deal with that well at all. I am done with you, and I hope others around here see you for what you really are. A :troll:

[Marinemom]

I think that all this nonsense needs to stop and we need to get back to the issue at hand. Someone is asking for advice and all he is getting is a lot of fighting about who knows what and who is overstocked or not. Give us all a break and knock it off! Enough said.

Marinemom

[TKOS]

You will never be able to tell a minimum wage employee with little to no training that they are wrong. Why? Because they don't care to know any better. Sad but true. But at least you gave the person buying the fish a chance to think that there are different ideas out there. Whether or not this person looks into things further is a whole different story.

I have done the same thing at fish stores in the past.

With proper water conditions a bettas rarey if ever needs to breathe at the surface. Mine rarely does and he lives ina 5 gallon planted/ filtered/ heated tank with weekly 50% water changes. But that doesn't stop him from rushing to the surface when he sees me open the lid at feeding time.

[wesleydnunder]

Abilor, I think you did the right thing. The response from the store employee was, unfortunately, typical. Few of the folks in the lfs or chain store do any research on their jobs. Not all, mind you. I know some very knowledgable and ethical store owners.

For some, they're just repeating information given them by a sales rep from the pet supply wholesaler. I maintain the sales and display tanks at a pet shop and the pet supply sales rep hates me. I've talked the owner into dropping many of the chemicals from her stock that are, IMO, useless.

The minimum size tank for a betta is hotly debated, as you see. Fish need room to swim. I've kept bettas in everything from a glass bowl, before I knew better, to a 125gal. None ever had a problem getting to the top. The minimum size I would keep one in is 10 gallon because I like live plants and I like keeping other fish with a betta, in stead of by themselves. I like the behaviors bettas display with other tank-mates. You can almost see their little brains working as they watch another fish swim by.

Mark

[Roan Art]

The minimum size tank for a betta is hotly debated, as you see. Fish need room to swim. I've kept bettas in everything from a glass bowl, before I knew better, to a 125gal. None ever had a problem getting to the top. The minimum size I would keep one in is 10 gallon because I like live plants and I like keeping other fish with a betta, in stead of by themselves. I like the behaviors bettas display with other tank-mates. You can almost see their little brains working as they watch another fish swim by.

Nod, Mark. IME bettas are very intelligent and very curious fish. Our Markers spends his entire day patrolling the 36g, following the cories around, and building huge bubble nests.

Roan

[TKOS]

My guy used to live in the 10 gallon with some white clouds but the temp difference and his slowness in eating wasn't good. The white clouds would steal his food before he could get it. Just a crazy pacifist I guess, though he always tried to flare at my blind cory (that was sad to watch).

[Rbishop]

Abilor...do not follow PurePerfection's advice (?).

Marinemom...play hall monitor some other place.

And just for the record, most bettas do not come from rice patties. You should see the 300 foot long breeding tanks in Indonesia, and for that matter, similar ones in Florida.

Oh yeah, almost forgot my 60's manners...

Be Happy!

(Geeesch)

[rosita]

Abilor...do not follow PurePerfevtion's advice (?).

Marinemom...play hall monitor some other place.

And just for the record, most bettas do not come from rice patties. You should see the 300 foot long breeding tanks in Indonesia, and for that matter, similar ones in Florida.

Oh yeah, almost forgot my 60's manners...

Be Happy!

(Geeesch)

Thanks, Bob. I think there's enough arguing and baiting out in the everyday world, and bringing into our "fishhaven" which is a place for learning/sharing/teaching in a responsible manner is just not appropriate. Just my two horse apples' worth. Happy trails, all!!!

[Marinemom]

Rbishop-Aren't you a cheerful spirit! I, being a Mom, will play hall mointor if I need to. After all,you are acting like children. For everyone else; I just meant that this being a forum for newbies, the last thing that is needed is THIS! People come here for information and advice and it seems that this thread has hostility. The person that started this thread certainly did not post so ther could be namecalling and insults. People come here for information and advice and they deserve that much respect at least. We; as responsible fishkeepers have an obligation to help those who have a genuiene interest in the information and advice that we can share with each other. Oh and by the way I can say be happy as much as I want to. Soooo

BE HAPPY!


Marinemom

[dorkfish]

YES! you and everyone else has the right to be pissed at everyone who promotes the mistreating of fish. If you have to, make a scene, what do you thinks more important, not making a scene or setting a mistreater(s) straight and preventing a bunch of fish from living horible lives and dieing prematurely?

[Marinemom]

I'm done with this thread. There's no point. You people just do not get it.

Marinemom

[DaisyTattoo]

I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my actions yesterday in this thread. Yes, I could have handled it differently I'm just not very good at getting my point across. I shouldnt let people who are just trying to start fights get to me and I will try not to let it happen again. I'm sorry if I have offended anyone as that was not my goal.