Where did my nitrites go? (and other questions)

[canucks]

Hello. I have discovered a wall of confusion in the last couple days. Maybe I will start by giving the info that I have recorded since the beginning of my cycle:

NH3 | NO2 | NO3 | pH
----------------------
18/02/03- 4.9 | - | - | 7.6

19/02/03- ~1.5 | 0.8 | - | -

20/02/03- ~1.5 |~1.6 | - | 7.4

21/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 7.4

22/02/03- out of town

23/02/03- 1.4 | 1.6 | - | 7.4

24/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 7.0

25/02/03- 2.8 | 1.6 | - | 6.0

26/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.0

27/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.0

28/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.0
*started adding only 1/2 amount of regular ammo dose
01/03/03- 3.0 | 1.8 | - | 6.0

02/03/03- 2.4 | 1.6 |off chart| 6.0

03/03/03- 2.0 | 1.6 | - | -6.0

*performed big water change and cleaned gravel, (too well, in my ignorance). Started dosing to 5ppm again. I was concerned about muck and algae growth. And now I regret it...

04/03/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.8

05/03/03- 1.2 | 0.5 | 20 | -6.0

06/03/03-
} out of town, landlady dosed to 5ppm 07/03/03-

08/03/03- 4.9 | 0.3 | - | 7.2

09/03/03- 2.4 | 0.1 | 20 | -6.0

10/03/03-+2.4 |-0.1 | - | -6.0

11/03/03- 2.4 | 0.1 | - | -6.0

12/03/03-+2.4 | 0.1 | - | -6.0
*no dose
13/03/03-+1.2 | 0.1 | 20 | -6.0

I hope this is comprehensive enough, (and neccessary!!). I guess my nitrites dropped becuase I basically cleaned all my nitrosomas bacteria out of the tank on the 3rd? ( I'm SUCH a DORK!! arrrrrrgggh...). So last night I reseeded the tank wih some gravel and the filter from my feeder goldfish tank (for the turtles) which had a nitrite count of +1.6, and I am currently running the filter from my new aquarium in the feeders tank. This should work, right? Soooo, my confusion lies in these questions:

1. Shouldn't the ammonia level drop first and then the nitrites? (after peaking, of course).
2. Is it normal for my pH to be so low? Tap water is 6.8.
3. Won't I lose all (or most) of my bacteria when I remove the containers of gravel and the old filter media at the end of the cycle? Like, how do you get the bacteria to colonize on the new media??
4. This doesn't have much to do with the other questions, but when should I add plants? Is the same day that I add the fish OK? Is it fine to just rinse them in chlorinated tap water, and give them a good check for snails? My lfs is a really great and reliable bunch of folks,
I've been dealing with them for ~7 years.

Thanks for humoring me. I know some of these questions are probably not really that big of a deal to all you experts out there, but I really didn't realize how involved fishkeeping is! I am enjoying it so far (even though I don't have any fish yet!!!) and it's mostly due to all the wonderful info posted on this site by such knowledgeable people. Thanks a bunch!!

Go Canucks!!!

[JSchmidt]

Let's see if we can figure some of this out... this is an interesting puzzle.

First of all, your water change and gravel cleaning shouldn't have done much damage to the biofilter (nitrosomas apparently aren't that important in FW tanks as we once believed, but that's a quibble...). The oxidizing bacteria attach firmly to surfaces and won't be dislodged by gravel vacuuming.

A couple possible things that may have happened: if you had a LOT of algae, it may have been scavenging ammonia and confusing your testing results a bit. Also, if you cleaned the tank walls well, you might have dislodged some of the beneficial bacteria.

That's not what I think is primarily responsible for the drop off of nitrite production, though. I suspect your pH has dropped sufficiently that the beneficial bacteria are slowing down or stopping their consumption of ammonia. I'm assuming your test only goes as low as pH of 6.0. If so, your pH could be considerably lower, and there's lots of evidence that lower pH values (e.g., 5) result in impairment/death of the beneficial bacteria.

Why the drop in pH from 7.6 to sub-6.0? You don't give us figures for carbonate hardness (KH), but I'd wager to guess that you have very low KH in your water. KH serves to buffer water, taking up acids in the water and thus maintaining the stability of the water's pH. A byproduct of the oxidization of ammonia/nitrite is acid (bioacidification); this acid is absorbed by the carbonates and bicarbonates in the water until they're saturated. At that point, the acids start to lower the pH. This sort of pH drop in low KH water is commonly seen in tanks that are cycling.

What can you do? Test the water (or ask your LFS to test it) to see what your KH is. If it is indeed low/nonexistent, you need to get add some buffering capacity to your water by way of increasing KH. You can add baking soda as a short term fix. My experience with baking soda is that it's hard to maintain stable KH (and by extension, pH) when using it, especially with water changes. I prefer adding some crushed coral to the tank. A bit in a nylon stocking, stuck in the filter should do the trick; start with a couple tablespoons and measure KH every several days over a couple weeks. KH should stabilze and you'll be able to see if you need to add or subtract some of the coral in the filter.

After the tank has cycled (i.e., you're getting zero ammonia/nitrites 24 hours after dosing with ammonia), you can remove the starter gravel. The bulk of the beneficial bacteria will inhabit the most preferential spots: this is generally in the filter and on the uppermost layer of gravel. As long as you don't remove the filter media or lots of the gravel, you should be OK.

I'm not an authority on plants, but from what I've read, it's generally best to hold off planting until the fishless cycle is through. Otherwise, as I understand it, there are likely to be significant algae problems.

Sorry for the long reply... I hope it's helpful.

Jim

[canucks]

I LOVE long replies! Thanks for your info, Jim. I had no idea that KH affected pH. I will call my lfs and ask them about it, (we share the same h2o supply). As for the gravel cleaning, well, I REALLY cleaned it..., like, ground the vacuum into the gravel and turned it all over. So would this maybe have buried and consequenty suffocated the bacteria??? I don't know, just trying to guess... In retrospect, I didn't have all that much algae, it probably would have been fine if I had left it til the end of my cycle... I just jumped the gun. Oh, the woes of being new at something. Oh well, thanks again for your info, I will act on it asap. Please keep the replies comin'! The more the merrier!!

[canucks]

Just an update for anyone who may be interested... I called my LFS and asked for their opinion on things. First off, I was informed that they do not recommend fishless cycling. (????). And then that our water is indeed soft. I got a GH/KH test kit as well. our GH is -20 from the tap and 60 in the tank; KH is -10 from the tap AND in the tank. So on the advice of JSchmidt and my LFS I crushed up some old sea shells I had and put them in a nylon and then into my filter that had been in the feeder tank for about 24hrs, and then put the filter back into new aquarium. Then I tesed my pH and nitrites about 2hrs later, (I hate not knowing about somethings), and then 2hrs after that. And the last time I checked, nitrites were (are), on the rise! Yay! Now, should I be aiming for a pH of about 7.0? Our tap h2o is 6.8. And also, will I have to leave the shells in there for all time? AND, should I shoot for a KH of about +80? I'd like to keep catfish, a pleco, some neons and a couple gouramis, with a moderate amount of plants. Thanks for your replies.

[superstein61]

Canucks - one thing I can't decipher from your original post is how much Ammonia you have been adding and when. Can you provide some info on that. Is it only those couple of instances you mentioned? Or ???

[JSchmidt]

It doesn't mean much that your LFS doesn't recommend fishless cycling. LFSs are notorious for giving bad advice and recommending expensive products to 'cure' non-problems. Always take anything they say with a large grain of salt.

One thing I don't understand: you say your KH is -10 and your GH is -20 from the tap. I don't think you can have negative values for these -- the lowest is zero. Can you explain?

I'm surprised your addition of crushed shells had such a quick effect. It usually takes at least a few days to see much of a jump in KH. As for your target, I'd shoot for 80-100 ppm KH. That may bring your pH up a bit, but if it stays below 7.4 or 7.5, I wouldn't worry about it. If KH starts overshooting 100 ppm, you might want to remove some of the shells until you find the right amount to just keep KH at 100 ppm or so. You will want to leave them in there, because they work by dissolving slowly and replenishing any KH used up by normal acidifying process in the tank (like the oxidizing of ammonia & nitrites).

A caution: despite what your LFS may say, DON'T buy a product to mess with your pH. Even if you pH goes up (and the KH should drive it up a bit), you don't need to adjust pH. Trust me, it will just cause more problems if you start adding junk to control pH.

HTH,
Jim

[superstein61]

Yes, to second what Jim says about your LFS and fishless cycling - just ignore them ;)

I frequent 2 LFS - When I was checking out some fish while my new tanks cycled Iand they asked if I needed any help - I would explain I am just looking while my tank cycles. One thought I escaped from some asylum when I was telling them how I fishlessly cycled the tank - they just didn't believe/ understand the concept. The other, better store understood it but really didn't trust it or endorse it.

So stick with what you find here on fishless cycling - not at your LFS

[canucks]

Ya, I chose to ignore my LFS opinion on fishless cycling, I mean I'm doing it already and it makes alot more sense to me. Until lately, that is...
Superstein, I've been adding ammonia everyday. About halfway through, I was re-reading the article by Chris Cow and realized he recommends cutting the dose in half (at some point I can't remember), and so I did. Then I got nervous about the algae and muck, and posted a question, and got some advice to do a MODERATE cleaning and nearly complete h20 change, and then dose to 5ppm. So I did, (only I think I did go a little ovrboard on the cleaning...), and have been dosing to 5ppm since then, until I noticed that my nitrites were droppin while ammonia was not. (Am I making sense to you? :) At which point, I stopped dosing for 2 days, while I posted this thread and wait for info on wat was happening.
JSchmidt, I typed my hardness readings wrong, I mean that they are LESS THAN 10 and 20. Oops, sorry...
On the topic of messing aroung with my pH...I'd like to do it as little as possible, and will definitely NOT buy chemical products to screw around with stuff-I'm confused enough as it is, the more I think about what's going on in my tank, the more questions I come up with, like:

What's gonna happen when I do a water change now that I have shells in there? I thought that the pH from our tap water is a perfect one for keeping the fish I want. (6.8) When I do water changes, is my pH going to fluctuate all the time? Oh wait, the shells are a pH STABILIZER, right? Still...
and
How long does it USUALLY take for a calcium carbonate source to affect the acidity? I've got about 23 days that I can give this tank my full attention and then I will be in and out of town for days at a time...Have I started something I won't be able to finish?? I guess I'm probably overreacting, I just was kind of expecting to have fish in there by now, we bought the tank about a month ago... O well, all part of the process... Thanks for your info and interest, guys! Hope I've given you the info you need...

[superstein61]

Canucks - Ok, you are dosing your ammonia back up to 5ppm - correct? you are not adding 5ppm each day - right?

For your ammonia readings, when are you taking them - ie when you say you have a measurement of 2.4 ammonia, how many hours is that after you last added ammonia to get up to 5ppm?

the reason I ask is you can overdose with ammonia and inhibit the bacteria you need from growing quickly.

Plus for instance, the last 5 days - you are showing Ammonia at 2.4 (except for the last day at 1.2) and nitrite at .1
Thus, if you are dosing Ammonia back up to 5.0 ppm, how many hours are going by til you get that 2.4 reading?

[canucks]

23-24hrs between dosing. And yep, I only bring it BACK UP to 5ppm.

[canucks]

Like, I take the tests between 7:30 and 8:30 am, then bring the ammonia level up to 5ppm, then do the same the next morning. I hope this is the right way...

[JSchmidt]

You are dosing with ammonia correctly.

Re: your pH, you may see a bit of fluctuation with water changes, but if your shells don't bump up pH too much as they increase KH, it won't be a problem. Remember, you'll only be chaning part of the water, so a slight difference in pH isn't a problem.

Hang in there, you're doing well and learning a lot, I'd wager....

Jim

[superstein61]

Canucks - ok, that is the correct method.

now some advise to cut the dosing in half (to 2.5ppm when Nitrites are present) - others have reported success staying at the 5ppm.

In any case, you obviously have Nitrites present if you are going from 5.0 ppm Ammonia to 2.4ppm in 24 hours. The reason you may not be showing many on your test kit is that Nitrates are also present which is a byproduct of the bacteria eating the Nitrites. However, why your test kits show no Nitrates most days is perplexing.

By chance, are these test kits old? Could any be expired?

I don't know what else to suggest except patience and watching it for a few more days after the PH is under control.

The only other option is try cutting back to dosing back up to only 2.5ppm of Ammonia - which should be more than enough of a bioload anyway - and see what happens from there.

Please post your daily test results going forward - I am anxious to see them. Good luck

[canucks]

Thanks, guys! Superstein, the reason my nitrates aren't showing everyday is because I wasn't testing for them everyday! (hahaha, I laughed when I read your reply:p Sorry for not being clear about that!) I figured they weren't really relevant until the end of the cycle, but I did test for them here and there (I like playing the "chemist"), and especially when I noticed the suspicious drop in nitrites.
Regarding the test kits, they don't expire until 2005/2006. And, just FYI, they're the Hagen "drop" test kits with the test tube and little bottles of reagent.

Readings for the last few days have been: NH3 | NO2 | pH | GH | KH ----------------------------
14/03- ~1.4|~0.2 |<6.0| 60 |<10

15/03- ~1.4| 0.3 |<6.0| 60 |<10
One thing I noticed though, is that my nitrites were at 1.6 last night, (evening, about 8pm). I just checked because I was bored, (I'm not working right now and so have ALOT of time on my hands...). Is this maybe because of O2 production by algae during the day, and then CO2 producton at night? There's really not all that much algae in there, but... maybe?
Thanks alot for your replies and encouragement, guys. I will keep you up to date.

Go Canucks!!

[superstein61]

Canucks, ok - well not measuring Nitrates would explain that - LOL

Do me a favor, next time you measure Ammonia and Nitrite, also do a Nitrate test - and post those results.

I think your Nitrites are disappearing - because umm, well, your tank may be close to being fully cycled and they are being converted to Nitrates.

Obviously if you had a NH3 / NO2 reading on 3/14 of 1.4 and 0.2, and you dosed NH3 up to a reading of 5.0ppm - then 24 hours later are showing readings on 3/15 of 1.4 and 0.3 - then your bacteria is converting the Ammonia to Nitrite - and your other bacteria is converting the Nitrite into Nitrate - so you may be close to having the tank fully cycled

[canucks]

Here are my test results from this morn:
NH3= >1.2
NO2= 0.2
NO3= between 50-110 (YAY!!:p )
pH= <6.0
GH= 80 (YAY!)
KH= <10
MORE QUESTIONS!!
Will my pH stabilize at whatever my tap water is when I do my big final water change, (which I think will be a bit of a ceremonious event!), because my GH is coming up now?
Also, when do you plant your tanks after doing a fishless cycle? I'd like to just buy the plants and fish at the same time, bring them home (a 5min. drive), set the plants up in the tank while the fish wait, then add the fish, (after equalizing the temp, of course). Does this sound OK?
BTW, Superstein, that's a really beautiful tank you have there. What a creative person!:eek:

[superstein61]

Thanks Canucks for the kind words about my tank - Actually I have been adding some more live plants to it - and once they grow in how I like, I will post some more pics

ANd nice test readings you have there - looks like you are just about cycled. What I would do is cut dosing your ammonia back to no more than 3ppm instead of 5ppm. That will be more bioload than you will need unless you are planning to overstock your tank very heavily.

I would suspect when you do this, and then measure results in 24 hours, you should have readings of zero for both NH3 and NO2. If so, I would repeat for one more day just to be sure - then if thats still the case - congrats - you are cycled.

Make your big water change, which should help get your PH back in line and you are ready for fish and plants. Yes, I would plant at the same time you add fish - immediately after your fishless cycle is complete.

Then I would keep a close eye on PH and KH for the next few weeks to make sure it stays in the range you want it

[carpguy]

Originally posted by canucks

Will my pH stabilize at whatever my tap water is when I do my big final water change, (which I think will be a bit of a ceremonious event!), because my GH is coming up now?

KH (carbonate hardness) is the part of hardness that acts as a pH buffer. GH doesn't effect pH, only KH. The crushed coral should be driving up your KH numbers. If they don't go up you may have continued problems with pH crashes. Very dangerous for the fish. I have 5 tblspns of crushed coral in a filter bag in my filter (on a 30g, works great, took about a week to reach stable levels but starts helping right away).


Originally posted by canucks
Also, when do you plant your tanks after doing a fishless cycle? I'd like to just buy the plants and fish at the same time…

I think some folks recommend waiting a week but I've never really understood why. I think you should be able to plant right away. Plants (including algae) use ammonia as a fertilizer, which is why planting during the cycle is not recommended (lights + high ammonia levels = algae). Once your tank is being dosed only by the fish, plants should be good to go.

[canucks]

Today's readings:
NH3= >1.2
NO2= 0.2
NO3= 50-110
pH = <6.0
GH = 80
KH = <10
If the tank fully cycles before KH increases is it still OK to put fish into it? I guess it would be better to wait until KH comes up and pH is stabilized?
Thanks for the info on planting.

[JSchmidt]

I don't normally recommend water changes during a cycle, but this is one instance where it might not be a bad idea. I forget if you've told us what the pH of an aged sample of your tap water is, but I suspect it's close to the 7.4 you cited at the beginning of the thread. I don't think I'd add fish until the tank stabilizes a bit closer to that figure. To speed that up (rather than waiting for crushed shells to dissolve and drive up pH), I'd change about 50% of the water today, redose to whatever your standard ppm of ammonia is, then repeat in 2-3 days.

My thinking is that the crushed shells are really there to dissolve and replenish the buffer as bioacidification consumes it. The current acid production in the tank is probably making it hard for your crushed shells to get ahead of the curve. A couple of water changes would bring pH back up and would probably cause your beneficial bacteria to consume ammonia/nitrite and to reproduce at a faster rate (low pH suppresses them). Then, the crushed shells would only have to dissolve fast enough to replace buffer as it's consumed. It may be that you need a little more of the shells/coral, too.

My preference is always to get things stable before you introduce fish. Many fish get sufficiently stressed with being netted and bagged; the last thing you want to do is introduce them to an unstable environment.

HTH,
Jim

[canucks]

Thanks Jim, that sounds like great advice. (the same thing my boyfriend has been suggesting I do- I just needed to hear it from someone with experience);) So I did a 50% water change and I have another oyster shell I will crush up and add. I don't know what the pH of an aged sample of our water is, but I'll find out and post it. Today's readings are the same as yesterdays.

[carpguy]

The nitrogen processing bacteria (whatever they may be) don't live in the water, they live on things -- gravel, glass, ornaments, driftwood, filter media. Water changes will not slow down your cycle (this is true of fishy and fishless). Very low pHs will slow it down. The water changes will help bring your KH and pH back towards tap. Tapwater, especially colder winter water, will have some CO2 mixed into it which will lower the pH. By letting it sit overnight (aging it) you give it a chance to outgas, which causes the pH to rise slightly. This is why your getting a reading of 6.8 for your tap but started your tank out at about 7.4.

As JSchmidt mentioned, bioacidification is a normal byproduct of the nitrogen cycle. Many tanks have a sufficient KH to handle this, but if your KH is low (as mine is) you can experience a pH crash. Like watching the pH plummet from 7.4 to <6 overnight. This could easily be fatal to fish. I use 5 tblspns of crushed coral in a mesh bag in the filter on my 30g and it brought my KH from <1 to about 3 or 4, took about a week to stabilize. I don't know how similar the matrix is going to be on oyster shells, which seem a bit tougher to me than coral: they may not be dissolving as quickly. It may be a little while before you start to see results. Baking soda will raise it more quickly but isn't as stable long-term.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by carpguy
The nitrogen processing bacteria (whatever they may be) don't live in the water, they live on things -- gravel, glass, ornaments, driftwood, filter media. Water changes will not slow down your cycle (this is true of fishy and fishless).

For the most part, I agree with this statement, esp. re: the bacteria not being in the water. Where this COULD slow things down a bit is that the water changes will reduce the available nitrite for the second stage bacteria. Given the current sluggishness with which the biofilter is growing (probably due to the low pH), lowering nitrites (which are already pretty low), could slow the growth of the second stage bacteria even more. Most likely the delay won't be significant, but there are enough things going on here (e.g., low pH, low KH) that I wouldn't want to unnecessarily starve the nitrite eaters for too long.

In most cases, though, I agree with you.

Jim

[canucks]

GH=60
KH=30
NH3=<1.2
NO2=>0.3
NO3=10
pH=7.0!!

Hopefully my pH will be able to stabilize at this level. I really smashed the @#$! outta that oyster shell, after boiling it for a while too. There's about a half a cup of sells in there now...obviously more than I could cram into my filter, (which btw, is a Fluval 2, and the tank is a 20 high), and still have it function normally, the shells are just hanging in a nylon stocking, (gonna buy a black one today) behind the filter. It seems to be doing the trick, although it is a little unsightly...
I'm still aging my glass of water...
Thanks for the continual information, at this rate I'll know it all in no time!! :p (ya right!!)

[canucks]

Okey doke, the pH of the glass of water that stood for 24 hrs was about 6.9. It has been raining for a couple days now though, and apparently that can affect pH? (Added chlorine etc. to combat nasty stuff in runoff? Tank pH is still at 7.0

[carpguy]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Where this COULD slow things down a bit is that the water changes will reduce the available nitrite for the second stage bacteria. Given the current sluggishness with which the biofilter is growing (probably due to the low pH), lowering nitrites (which are already pretty low), could slow the growth of the second stage bacteria even more. Most likely the delay won't be significant, but there are enough things going on here (e.g., low pH, low KH) that I wouldn't want to unnecessarily starve the nitrite eaters for too long.

I agree that the very low pH can inhibit the development of the biofilter, but I'm going to disagree with regards to diluting the nitrites. As long as there is a supply of Ammonia the Ammonia eaters will produce Nitrites, so there will be a steady supply of Nitrites. Even after a very large water change and redosing, the Nitrites are going to be produced again long before the Nitrite eaters begin to starve off. I'm going to assume Canucks did a fairly large volume change to get Nitrates down to 10 from >50, and yet the Nitrite and Ammonia levels haven't especially changed. They are still detectable, which means they are still in excess of what the colony can process, which means that the colony is still growing, not shrinking.

While in most cases, water changes aren't necessary during a fishless (critical during a fishy cycle) in a case like this the very depressed pH is going to be a much greater damper than a very temporary drop in Nitrites.

As far as the oyster shells go, keep an eye on things. I really have no idea how efficient they'll be but that sounds like a lot (for crushed coral it would be a lot, for oyster shells it may be just right). As the water becomes increasingly acidic it will dissolve the shells more rapidly which will make the water less acidic which will make the shells dissolve more slowly until you hit a point at which you'll have a pretty stable balance. Excess KH can push your pH up higher than you might want it to be, so you'll want to monitor it until it evens out. This is a safe, stable, and easy way to bump KH and pH up. Ideally its nice to keep the water chemistry near what the fish would prefer, but stability is more important. Crashes are bad and jumps are bad, a little too high or low but stable, much much less bad (much less).

HTH

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by canucks
Okey doke, the pH of the glass of water that stood for 24 hrs was about 6.9. It has been raining for a couple days now though, and apparently that can affect pH? (Added chlorine etc. to combat nasty stuff in runoff? Tank pH is still at 7.0

Sounds like the shells are doing the trick. If you suspect variability in your water supply, you might want to check the tap water again in a few days. I'd be surprised if it's dramatically different.

Jim

[canucks]

Toda's readings:
NH3= 0.6
NO2= 0.8-1.6
NO3= 50-ish
pH= 7.0
GH=80
KH=20
Ya, that water change oesn't seem to have done any damage whatsoever! I was really excited to see these results this morning. But I was a little confused as to why my KH would drop 10 (degrees?) overnight. Maybe because there has been alot of powder from that oyster shell floating around, (I keep squishing it up to release this), and so the fine powder is spent?? I don't know... just trying to guess. Tomorrow I'm going to see about getting some coral, I get the feeling it will do a faster and more reliable job, (and I could use it in my feeder tank and turtle tank and my yet to be cycled hospital tank, now that I am on to how much is involved in keeping water healthy for aquatic creatures.) Also, I was going to check out Big Al's, does anyone know what their reputation is like?
I really want to express my thanks to you guys, JSchmidt, superstein, and carpguy for coaching me through this. It really would have been much more confusing without your help!!
THANK YOU:p THANK YOU:p THANK YOU:p THANK YOU

[superstein61]

Canucks - great to see those readings - looks like you are just about there. Congrats.

Personally, I would get crushed coral at your LFS instead of a mailorder place - only because shipping will be high. It will be cheaper buying locally - I got a bag that will probably last me a lifetime for $7. If you had a good LFS store that stocks saltwater fish , you may even be able to get them to give you a few handfuls (which is what a local breeder I buy from did for me to get me started)

[canucks]

Ya, if I can get just a bit of coral from my LFS (which is a pet store that specializes in aquaria) that would be great, but I really want to check out this Big Al's place, it's only about a 1/2 hr drive from us... so hopefully I wouldn't have to order anything through the mail!

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by canucks
Toda's readings:
NH3= 0.6
NO2= 0.8-1.6
NO3= 50-ish
pH= 7.0
GH=80
KH=20
Ya, that water change oesn't seem to have done any damage whatsoever! I was really excited to see these results this morning. But I was a little confused as to why my KH would drop 10 (degrees?) overnight. Maybe because there has been alot of powder from that oyster shell floating around, (I keep squishing it up to release this), and so the fine powder is spent?? I don't know... just trying to guess. Tomorrow I'm going to see about getting some coral, I get the feeling it will do a faster and more reliable job, (and I could use it in my feeder tank and turtle tank and my yet to be cycled hospital tank, now that I am on to how much is involved in keeping water healthy for aquatic creatures.) Also, I was going to check out Big Al's, does anyone know what their reputation is like?
I really want to express my thanks to you guys, JSchmidt, superstein, and carpguy for coaching me through this. It really would have been much more confusing without your help!!
THANK YOU:p THANK YOU:p THANK YOU:p THANK YOU

I wouldn't worry too much about your KH dropping overnight. After all, you added water with less KH; you diluted the KH concentration by doing so. As long as you don't start doing 50% water changes 2-3 times a week, your shells should dissolve quickly enough to replenish KH and keep pH stable. Using crushed coral may help, but even it doesn't dissolve that quickly. You don't really want it to, either. You want it to dissolve just enough to keep up with the buffer being used up. The shells will have to play 'catch up' a bit when you do a water change, but once KH gets up to 80-100, the loss of KH from a water change shouldn't make much of a difference.

Glad this is all working out for you,
Jim

[canucks]

Today's readings:
NH3= 0.6
NO2= 0.2
NO3= 50
pH= 6.9
GH= 80
KH= <10

[carpguy]

Hi Canucks,

The numbers look good! Looks like the tank will be ready soon… congrats!:D

If your KH gets uncomfortably low (and it looks quite low), you can use a little bit of baking soda to boost it. Some folks use this method on a regular basis, but personally I think the coral method is both simpler and more stable. Until you get that sorted out though, it might help you to avoid crashes.

I'm guessing your test kit is giving you readings in ppm (parts per million). Other kits use a "degrees of hardness scale" thats been imported from Germany. I think the conversion is 17.3 ppm/degree -- I just use 17 for the ballpark figure. Either is fine -- this is just an FYI, in case you see some very odd looking numbers being posted.

It seems to me that Big Al's enjoys a fairly good reputation. Those of us down here south of the border only know it as a mail order business -- supposedly the best prices for dry goods and hardware on the web. You'll have to find a fellow Canadian to weigh in on the stores.

[canucks]

Today's results:
NH3= 0.6
NO2= 0.1
NO3= 50-110
pH = 6.6
GH = 80
KH = 20

I replaced the crushed shells with crushed coral. Hopefully this will make things a little more stable.

[canucks]

Today's results:
NH3= 0.6
NO2= 0.1
NO3= 50-110
pH = 6.6
GH = 100
KH = <10

Could someone please help me to understand why my KH is dropping while GH is rising??? I'm thinking I should use some baking soda, but I don't know how much, and I'm wondering exactly what it will do. I'd honestly rather not mess around too much with the process and just leave it to do it's thing if it's possible. Maybe I could do another partial water change? Or should I just continue to be patient? Thanks for your replies.

Kathi

[JSchmidt]

Well, let's see... KH is dropping, so whatever acidification processes are going on in the tank are outpacing the shells/coral rate of dissolving. This seems to be confirmed by pH dropping.

What's the source of acid? Is it bioacidification from ammonia/nitrite oxidizers? It looks like some of that is going on. You are dosing daily with ammonia, right? To what level? How long after dosing are you testing (24 hours?) You don't have any driftwood in the tank, correct?

I'd try doubling the amount of crushed coral and make sure it's in a place where it's getting a lot of water flow over it. I suspect you've added enough KH to get your biofilter moving again, but now it's producing enough acid to use up the KH. If that's correct, you're close to finding the magic balance of KH and pH to keep your water stable.

Keep us posted...

Jim

[canucks]

I DO have driftwood in there!! And y'know, I was gonna say something about it earlier. I should take it out right? What a dum-dum. Tannins are acidic. I KNOW this- I'm a chef. (working with wine, which contains tannins, which tenderizes meats etc. by the ACIDS breaking down the protiens...). AUUGGGH. Boy do I feel silly now.
As for the dosing... I am still dosing to 5ppm each day, and testing 23-24 hrs after. And there is about 5tbsp of coral inside my filter. 20g tank.
Today's readings:
NH3=0.6
NO2=0.1
NO3=110
pH =6.4
GH =120
KH =<10

Does KH stand for CALCIUM carbonate or is it a potassium based carbonate? Should I do a partial water change and take the driftwood out? Also, I need to go out of town from Tues. morn til Thurs. afternoon/evening, and won't be able to dose. Will this really affect my cycle?
Thanks, Kathi

[JSchmidt]

Ahhh, driftwood... You toy with us, Chef Kathi!

You don't necessarily need to take out the driftwood, but you will have to increase the amount of crushed coral if you want to keep the wood.

It won't hurt a lick if you leave your tank without dosing for a day or so. I might be tempted to dose it just a smidge higher than normal before I left, but that's probably not necessary. Just feed your bacteria when you get home, and they'll be fine.

If you're dosing at 5 ppm and reading those low levels of ammonia and nitrite after 24 hours, you are very close indeed to being done. By the time you stabilize your water chemstry, I bet your biofilter will be ready for fish.

Keep us posted!

Jim

[carpguy]

Why are you asking about potassium? Is there another detail lurking behind the question? KH is an unstable term. Yes it means Calcium Carbonate Hardness (Kalksomethingorother in German), but you'll see bits from the chemists about alkalinity and buffering capacity and subtle variations in what those things mean. Not that I understand these things, but one of those details seems to center on other things (besides calcium carbonate) that can throw off the tests, like phospate buffers. I think potassium chloride can soften your water by decreasing your GH. I don't really grasp all the chemistry.

Where is the WetMan when you need him? (And may I take this opportunity to point you at the WetFeller's very great SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/). Chemistry is not my strong suite. He claims its not his either but he explains it (much) better than I could.

I'm a crushed coral partisan and its worked for me. If you think you're going to have another crash I'd try a fairly small dose of baking soda until you can get a notion of how much does what. If you think you're not going to see a crash then I'd just add a bit more coral and keep an eye on it. It doesn't work overnight and you may find yourself removing some later. 5 tbspns in the filter does all my 30g needs.

Agree with Jim again, driftwood is fine, a day off won't hurt, and you look like you're in the homestretch. Enjoy :D .

[canucks]

Todays results:
NH3= 0.6
NO2= 0.3
NO3= 10
pH = 6.8
GH = 60
KH =<10

I did another ~50% water change, and took a peice of bogwood out in an effort to raise pH again. I'm adding more coral today.
The reason I ask about potassium is because I was wondering if the "K" in KH stood for it. No other reason.
I wish I could see the Skeptical Aquarist page...we only have Webtv and it doesn't allow me to do more than get to the page, I can't see the menu or anything.:mad:
Thanks for your help, guys.

[carpguy]

The WetFeller's site uses a java menu for navigation. Very clean but also a little on the high tech side. Try and find out if there is anyway to enable java for WebTV (don't know too much about it but it seems unlikely). A friend? A library?

I'll try and email you a few excerpts from the sections on cycling and water chemistry. Its one of the truly great sites. I knew, for instance that KH was calcium but I learned the German angle (kalk) at the Skeptical One's. Details on top of details.

Edit: A thread (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1904) on KH and crushed coral.

[superstein61]

Driftwood and KH ;) Yea, I have that same problem too. My KH was very low - and I do have a lot of driftwood in my tank. But I have to confess - I use a whole lot more than 5 tbsp of crushed coral - LOL

I started out with a big handful (see how precise my measurements are) - and added another big handful after a few days - LOL. OK, I am an inpatient person ;)
- but after doing this about 4 weeks ago, I was able to get my KH to stabilize around 80ppm

If I had to guess, I probably have an 8 to 10 ounce cup full of crushed coral sitting in the sump for my 72 gallon

[canucks]

WOW! Thanks so much for mailing me the info from Skeptical Aquarist, carpguy! That's so great! Now I don't feel so left out of "the loop".
Results from the last few days:
26/03
NH3= 0
NO2= 0.3
NO3= >50
pH = 6.8
GH = 80
KH =<10

27/03 (out of town in am., tested @ ~2:30pm, didn't dose, added some more crushed coral)
NH3= 0
NO2= 0.3
NO3= >50
pH = 6.2
GH = 80
KH =<10

28/03
NH3= 0
NO2= 0
NO3= 10
pH = 6.9
GH = 100
KH =<10

[canucks]

Hi. I haven't taken NH3, NO2, NO3 tests yet today, but here are the results from the last couple days:

29/03
NH3=0
NO2=0.3
NO3=50
pH =6.4
GH =120
KH =<10

30/03
NH3=0
NO2=0.1
NO3=>50
pH =6.4
GH =120
KH =<10

I just did pH, GH, and KH tests. The numbers, respectively, were 6.4, 140, and <10. I guess my pH has come up since 27/03, but I was expecting to see a change in KH by now. Am I just being impatient? There is ALOT of coral in there, and a peice of mangrove root that had been in my turtle tank for about 5 years. Would it still be affecting pH?, (it's about a foot long in a 20g tank). I had bought a new peice of mopani wood and have removed it, but I'd really like to leave this one in, because I want to get a pleco, and it looks nice. Do you guys think I should use a little baking soda? I just don't see what the point is if it's only a temporary fix. Does it just help the coral catch up? Help...

[JSchmidt]

You still don't have fish in there, right? If so, I'd add a tablespoon or two of baking soda, wait a few hours and then test KH. I'm extremely surprised you coral isn't buffering the water any better. At a pH below 7, it should be dissolving rather quickly and you should see pH stabilizing, not dropping, and you should see KH rising more than it has. I almost have to question the KH test and its accuracy. Have you had a comparison test done at your LFS to confirm it?

It won't hurt to add some baking soda. I think you're right to be hesitant to use it regularly, but I think you need to see what's going on with this tank. Adding some baking soda would give us an idea.

I'd test right before you add it, then again several hours later.

Jim

[canucks]

Ya, still no fish. I just dosed the tank, so maybe I should wait til tomorrow to add some baking soda? And I'll take a sample of "undosed" water to my LFS tomorrow as well. I noticed that KH goes up after adding ammonia. Would asking why this is be too much info for my own good?:confused:

[canucks]

AHA! I think I've GOT it!

Last night I decided to give one of my "coral pouches" a squish or two, and LO! you should've seen all the stuff that came out of it! It would seem that there was just not enough circulation through the pouches; they were dissolving, but not being dispersed. So I took the one out of my filter, (thereby increasing the circulation), and gave THAT pouch a squish or two. YAY. I left the two hung on the back of the tank directly in front of the filter out flow, and here's what I found this morn:
NH3=0
NO2=0.2
NO3=110
pH =7.2!
GH =160
KH =20
I took one bag out this morning, because it really did seem like too much and the bin I bought the coral from had a caution sign saying that it would raise pH to 8.2.
So...hopefully things will stabilize (and nitrites drop) by Sat, and I can get some fish on Sun, because I will be out of town from the 6th to the 10th. I hope I hope I hope. I bought this tank on Feb 8th. Is that a long time or what?

[carpguy]

It took me months to get the first tank set up. Too many plans.

Glad to hear the chemistry is stabilizing. I keep my coral in a small mesh filter bag in my filter so that there is always steady water flow over the coral.

Enjoy your fish :D :D

[wetmanNY]

You've been getting great advice here from JSchmidt and that carp guy.

My ears were burning there a while. The Java applet is too fancy, and my tech partner is recasting the whole site to make it more universally browser-friendly. Rebuilding from the ground up, because it's bursting at the seams...

But gulp I've recently been told that the German K in KH is not for kalk-- lime-- but for Karbonathaerte- carbonate hardness. low mumble I was misremembering an old translation of a German text.

brightening but I never claim to be more than a mere reporter... good thing we have some chemists!