RTFM (If you don't know what it means, please see inside)

[Goatman]

Read The F*****G Manual:

The concept of RTFM is as old as the written language. For every topic in existence there has been some sort of "manual" to explain the ins and outs of it. Here, newbies and veterans alike, is the manual for the aquarium. There is one rule to keeping happy, healthy fish, and that is to RTFM. It may seem like every new owner's problem is a unique circumstance in their microcosm of existence. Unfortunately it is most often not. It is generally due to the same reason(s) as every other unique problem people have encountered. If you are going to post a question about a problem with a new tank, read this list first:

1. High Ammonia/Nitrites: You didn't listen when people told you to chill out, and this is the aftermath. Did you ever hear the workd "cycle" or even "test kit?" If you didn't, you didn't do the most basic research, and for this my friend, you fail.

2. Too many fish: You may have bought into the concept of "1 inch of fish per gallon," or perhaps you bought all those fish thinking "what's ammonia?(see item 1)" Again, you did not do even the most basic level of research, or possibly even common sense. This is the aftermath.

3. BIG fish, tiny tank: You really bought into the whole "that oscar will only get as big as the tank will allow" concept, eh? Unfortunately big fish do not stay small, because evolution has chosen them to be big. We may like to think we're god some days, unfortunately the man upstairs' word trumps ours. You didn't use your high school Bio class knowledge, or common sense. This is the aftermath.

Okay, so you realize you didn't do the research, you impulse bought, and now your fish (and hopefully you) are suffering a little for it (here is where I admit that even I was an impulse-buy aquarist for a spell, most of us are guilty methinks). Here's what you do to fix the problem (if you caught it early enough to fix).

1. Read every single post in the newbie forum, don't stop until you reach the end.

2. Read every post in the articles section, even if it doesn't seem applicable.

3. Search the internet for information about the problem, read the first 5 pages at the bare minimum.

4. If at this point you can still think, still type, and have not found your answer... post a new thread about your unique problem. If it truly is unique, the majority of us will get a kick out of hearing something we haven't before, and doing our best to help rectify the situation.

:devil: :huh: :devil:

[twig]

This thread is aggressive and in doing so does not encourage an attentive reader. People respond to kind word and gentle tutoring moreso than this blatent attack.

Most of the people who make those mistakes are new to the hobby and come to these forums in an effort to learn and do the right thing. This isn't the way to teach.

[Goatman]

Spoonfeeding information to someone too lazy to find it themselves isn't the answer in my opinion. But, it's just my opinion.

[sumthin fishy]

I agree with twig, and all this information can be found in the article section in a much more polite delivery. Seeing as how you've not been here more than a week or so, you really have no place telling veterans how to do it, nor newbies or anyone in between for that matter. Slow your roll, hang arround for a bit, and try to use a bit more tact. The purpose of a forum such as this is to have real life people answer your questions. Sure using the search function would cut back on some of the more common questions, but not everyone knows about it who is new to the forums, and not everyone wants to go panning through 100 posts to find the one that actually answers thier question.

[CJC]

What is wrong with you? I can't believe you even posted this! There are people out there that honestly DO NOT realize "fishkeeping" is such a serious hobby for some and now you are posting crap like this? People come here in search of HELP and here you are.......what does that say for this forum?

Obviously you are a smart man, I've read some of your posts and by no means do I think that you are stupid or uneducated! If you get irritated w/ somebody and the way that have done something, don't take it out on them or post something like this! HELP THEM SOLVE THE PROBLEM W/ YOUR KNOWLEDGE! If you have use it, if you don't then ask. And I think that most people here agree w/ that theroy.

Furthermore, when you refer to the "man upstairs" and you are going to use His name in a sentence, then learn that the written english captializes the "G" in God. Not trying to be rude.

[Goatman]

SumthinFishy, how many books do you own on aquaria? How long have you been working with them? How many hours have you spent finding information about new tech, new potential additions, or just whatever the other guy is doing? I don't assume to tell a veteran what to do, or a newbie either if they have put an iota of time into the hobby before they purchase their first tank. I've been working in aquaria for 9/11 of the time I've been breathing. How much does that mean? Not a thing. I still learn on a daily basis about what goes on in my mid-sized glass box. Do I post a frantic note for every hiccup? No, I find out what the problem is, and fix it. I put my time into my problem before I expect anyone else to. I just feel as that should be the standard, not the spoonfeeding for the helpless.

[Goatman]

Also... the second half of the post _does_ point out several ways to find the answer instantly, without waiting for someone else to post an answer, by taking some initiative. The post was not meant to be inflamatory, it was meant to try to instill a little initiative into the newbies who come here for answers. There are faster and easier ways to find the answer you seek then to post and wait for a reply.

[CJC]

And that is why people come here! Those "hiccups" mean something to them b/c they don't what it is! And that is where your knowledge comes in handy, you know something that they don't. You have the knowledge that they don't have and therefore you can use that knowledge to your advantage! Go and help somebody before you critize them, if they keep making the same mistake over and over again after you explain it to them then I could see you getting upset, but you are just getting flat out aggressive for no reason what so ever! If you explain it and they still don't understand then explain it again in simplier terms, I know that I have asked questions here and got the answers which read like greek. When I asked what they meant, they explained in simplier terms that I could understand.........and doing all of that w/ out getting mad at me or anybody else. And then if they still do whatever it is they planned on doing w/out taking your advise into consideration, then get upset! You don't have to post something like this to get your point across.

[goldenchld24]

This kind of post makes me not want to post here... ever. I'm sure other Newbies feel the same way. Maybe they did read every single post in the newbie forum (although unlikely since that could take hours and if they have an emergency aren't going to do that).

But you know what, the fish end up paying the price because if more people could ask quesitons without feeling stupid there wouldn't be as many overstocked, uncycled, and poorly maintained tanks which you 'advanced aquariasts' despise so much.

BTW: I have 2 aquarium books and have spend exhaustive hours on the internet researching thanks.

[CJC]

This kind of post makes me not want to post here... ever. I'm sure other Newbies feel the same way. Maybe they did read every single post in the newbie forum (although unlikely since that could take hours and if they have an emergency aren't going to do that).

But you know what, the fish end up paying the price because if more people could ask quesitons without feeling stupid there wouldn't be as many overstocked, uncycled, and poorly maintained tanks which you 'advanced aquariasts' despise so much.

BTW: I have 2 aquarium books and have spend exhaustive hours on the internet researching thanks.

Don't be discouraged over this post, there are really good people here that will help you (or any other newbie for that matter) and not be rude or aggressive. I was thrilled to find such a wonderful site, and I am a newbie here too! And for those newbies that read this, I wouldn't want to post or join this forum either!

[sumthin fishy]

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I assure you, there have been plenty of folks who have come through here with extensive fishkeeping knowledge who were not listened to, or eventually banned, due to thier poor attitued. And no matter how many times you post something like this there will still be new members showing up asking the same newbie questions. Getting an attitude turns them away and results in dead fish which Im sure none of us want (regardless if its in a tank across the world) I find your question of my fishkeeping knowledge to be an irrelavant boast, having nothing to do with this conversation.

[CJC]

GO SUMTHIN FISHY GO! :clap:

[Goatman]

SumthinFishy, you mistook what I wrote as a questioning of ability. The intention was to prove the point that the solid keepers own books, do research, and contemplate the merits of what's new.

[Cheese Pope]

lol...if you dont want to help people simply dont, its not a hard concept. Instead of posting your thoughts (which has little to do with fish) in this forum. Nothing helps more than people with first hand experience. - And yes I did over a month of research before I even considered buying a tank - Still does not account for first hand experience.

[god61021]

goatman wouldnt posting on these forums be doing research?i happen to own over 300 different animal books only about a dozen of them are fish related but i can tell you that 99.9% of books are outdated or just plain inacurate.there is no better way to learn than actual conversations with other hobbyists matter of fact if you do find a good book alot of times they will list private conversations as there source of information.and as far as searching the web i have found from experience that just because you make a web page claiming to know what your talking about doesnt mean you do.in the forums you ask a question and get real answers from several different people with several different opinions.imo if people asking questions bothers you you might want to do your research in a library instead of a forum created for people to exchange information.and you might want to be more polite ive been kicked out of forums for less.

[Goatman]

Cheese Pope, did your fish get ill? Did your ammonia/nitrites spiral out of control? I'm guessing not. I agree, getting your hands dirty is the best, but not without at least understanding some basic concepts first. That's my point. The post is directed at newbies, in the newbie forum, because many newbies don't read the articles before they post their questions which are answered inside.

[Cheese Pope]

Cheese Pope, did your fish get ill? Did your ammonia/nitrites spiral out of control? I'm guessing not. I agree, getting your hands dirty is the best, but not without at least understanding some basic concepts first. That's my point. The post is directed at newbies, in the newbie forum, because many newbies don't read the articles before they post their questions which are answered inside.

I understand what your saying, dont buy what you dont understand, people who think that its the easiest hobby in the world, but in reality is alot more complex. But there are "nicer" ways to put it. :dance2:

[Goatman]

:eek: You're probably right about that... :eek:

[D-Bak]

For what it is worth.... this thread is just about as valuable as any I have read so far...

I was under the impresion that it was a simple hobby... put the water in the tank, and watch the fish swim around.....

I did however, buy "Aquariums for dummies" before i did anything, and i think i saved myself and my fish a ton of stress..... I guess "Aquariums for dummies" is "the manual" for me.... it saved my butt a few times already....

Also... i dont know who has this in their signature, but they say ingnorace is not an excuse for anything anymore, because the internet is around now. This is totally true, and i personally think there is no reason for somebody to just go out, buy a tank, put 45 fish in it, and have every one of them die....

It is that person's resonsibility to care for their fish like the do their children or their dog....

JMO tho

[LunchBox]

so just to drop in a couple cents here ;) I'd like to say that while I agree for the most part with the topics the OP covered, the way it was written felt like an attack. It sounded like an angry rant, which doesn't help anyone no matter how useful the info contained therein is. If someone feels they are on the defensive in the first couple snetences, thye most likely won't read further and may even leave the site completely. They say first impressions are everything, and it holds true here just as well as it does in everyday life.

good ideas, but be a little more calm and understanding next time if you could please. ;)

[MidnightPyro]

I think telling new fish keepers that they 'fail' and that it's a good thing they're suffering is way too harsh. Imagine walking into a pet store and asking about a problem you have, and the clerk saying to you, "You fail, you don't understand basic biology, andI hope you suffer."
That's not a very good way to teach new fishkeepers. Of course most of the info people need has been discussed on these forums, but that doesn't mean that ignoring them or insulting them is going to fix the problem.

If you want to help new aquarists, my suggestion would be to reply to threads with the correct information to the best of your ability, or give them a link to the information. If they're here, they obviously want to learn and ignoring them or telling them they've already screwed things over isn't going to help.

I also have to disagree with you on your article. I don't think reading every post and every article is nescessary. I think there's a far more basic approach to it...in my opinnion, the basic information that people need is...

Know the requirements/needs of your fish - Do they like to be in a school? Alone? Are all your fish compatible? Will they fit in your tank? Do they require any special dietary needs, temperature needs, hiding places etc.?

Know the basics of water chemistry - Know that ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate. Nitrate isn't really toxic in levels below 30-40 ppm, but it's a good indicator of other junk building up in the water. Plants utilize nitrate, so if you have a planted aquarium you can't really use nitrate as a gauge for water changes. If ammonia/nitrite go above zero, consider a water change. Keep up with regular water changes depending on your fish load/aquarium filtration and setup.

Know your water/what to add to it - Along with the thing above, it's always good to know whether your tap water is soft/hard, what pH it is out of the tap etc. so you can gauge potential problems. If you're not too sure what's in your water, use a water conditoner like Prime that does it all (gets rid of chlorine/chloramines/heavy metals/detoxifies ammonia/nitrite/nitrate). Don't try to regulate pH excessively unless you really have a problem.

I think some of the articles on Aquaria Central are unnescesary for people to read. Some people just want to setup tanks, change water every once in awhile and be done with it, while others want to go deeper into the hobby. I don't think it's nescessary for people to know every single process that goes on in their aquarium, but learn information as nescessary for when something goes wrong (and that's where the experts here come in handy :cool:)

[Roan Art]

I understand what your saying, dont buy what you dont understand, people who think that its the easiest hobby in the world, but in reality is alot more complex. But there are "nicer" ways to put it. :dance2:
Agreed.

The comic has a good routine, but needs some work on delivery ;)

I would also like to point out that for every grain of good information on the internet, there are 100 grains of misinformation and pure myth. It's very hard, as a newbie, to know *what* is correct information and what is wrong information.

Roan

[Dangerdoll]

A lot of newbies come here in a panic asking questions after following the advice of their LFS.... some feel as if their problem is unique. Sure, they could go to the search option, maybe some do even.... but like I said, some feel their situation is more unique, although most of us would not think so. Some old-timers do refer people to the archived stickies and articles, I've seen that done dozens of times and have ever referred them there on more than one occasion. The fact of the matter is, some people come into the hobby without thinking that there is more than fill the tank, wait a day, and you're good to go. When I first started umpteen years ago, I did the same. It's boards like these that are the saving grace of many tanks though because of the questions asked. If you're so annoyed at the simple questions in such an early part of your existence on AC, why bother dealing with it in the first place. If you don't like the redundancies that you see, try another board. I'm sure you'll see that most have this very same issue. As an old-timer myself, I'd rather help the inexperienced or panic stricken hobbyist rather than scare them away about it. Starting such an aggressive thread could only discourage people more when in the whole picture, it's about saving that guppy being housed with the bala.

[msouth468]

I guess the topic creator never read a book on aquariums. I have about 15 books all together. They range from basic saltwater setup, to advanced planted tanks. And I'm here to tell you that sometimes you understand even the most simple aquarium related tasks a lot better when somebody tells you instead of trying to figure out what a writer was trying to portray. In any instance you sound more like you're easy to annoy over trivial things instead of trying to actually help. People make mistakes they have trouble understanding. That is life; if you can't realize that then you are doomed to have bad days for the rest of your life. This applies to ammonia and fish stocking methods. How many people here can honestly say they knew what they were doing when they started? For the longest time (years and years) I never know about the ammonia cycle. I tested only for ph, and used chemicals to treat every aspect of my tank. And I even did research on what I could find.

The information is so broad and vast that people need help to narrow it down and put it in more of a perspective that they can understand. Not everyone is a die-hard aquarist that puts everything they own into a tank. They are the casual aquarist that needs a little help from time to time. And frankly, this is a quicker way than trying to search for information on the net by yourself.

Wow, that was a long post for me.

[LunchBox]

How many people here can honestly say they knew what they were doing when they started?
speaking of which, I spent the first 3 years in the hobby with a 10 gallon tank with an angel, 2 black tetras, a blue gourami, a common pleco, a giant danio, and I think a few more fish I can't remember anymore. can't say I knew what I was doing then, and I've been finding that I'm still learning a lot 10 years later ;)

[joylynn]

I agree with what many other have said on this post, that often newbies - of which I am very definitely one - come here after being bombarded with contradictory, invalid, outdated and just flat out wrong advice. I have been reading constantly for the two weeks or so since I started on my 35G aquarium. My 10G is still alive due to dumb luck apparently. I heard about cycling, but when I asked the fish store about it I was told, add your first fish, then add a few more in a couple of days - HAHAHAHAHAHA. Now I know this was a joke, my mistake for hoping the person selling me fish knew what they were saying. I did my research on what fish play with each other, and there is a ton of conflicting information out there on that subject. I have opaline gouramis and tiger barbs together and it seems the jury is still out on whether they play well, but so far so good.

I am here to tell you that finding information on the basic care (how to do a water change for example) is really hard to find. Everyone says do water changes in the books, articles, web pages, etc, but I only found info on how to actually PERFORM one on this site in the forums because someone finally broke down and asked a basic question like that. I am probably one of those that sparked the initial post on this thread, I admit I was under informed, but I tried and I am willing to remedy my lack of knowledge mostly thanks to the help and friendly advice I have seen on this forum. Sometimes we newbies just panic because we read so much information - much of it conflicting - and can't make heads or tails of it, it helps to talk to people who apply that knowledge all the time in the real world. I have seen so much conflicting info on pH and ammonia levels I am still at a loss on what levels I should really be at nd still be safe (I know zero after the tank is done cycling, but I am still cycling now, with a tank full of fish unfortunately), but I am continuing to learn as fast as I can because I love my fish and care about doing the best thing for them.

[dreamweaver219]

hello............, if us newbies didnt asksuch silly questions on a daily basis, then there wouldnt be any posts to "go back and read"....

Also, i always try to go back and read to see if there is something unigue to my situation.But there just really always isnt.Every case is different.And if i have a fishy emergency...I REFUSE TO SPEND ALL DAY TRYING TO READ.Thank GOD there is a forum like this that i can ask questions in.

[Fish Kate]

Just two more cents of my own, here.

Even though I'm used to being asked the same question 8 million times (I work with little kids), I totally understand where Goatman's frustration comes from.

I'm also very new to keeping fish, and have been as guilty as the next newbie when it comes to posting repetative questions.

But here's the thing. What may seem totally obvious to someone who knows about how to do research on a computer (or in a library) may not even occur to someone who never learned those skills. Combine that with knowing nothing about the hobby, and you get someone looking for answers who doesn't even know which questions to ask, and who has no idea how tedious it is for someone to keep answering those same questions.

But IMO that's the main reason this forum has a seperate "Newbie" spot, just so we Newbie's don't annoy people who don't have the patience to put up with us.

I found this site when my daughter asked for a goldfish. Before I even posted a question, I had learned (elsewhere) that I couldn't keep a goldfish in a bowl...but then, I have basic internet and pc skills and I also read books. They say "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Well, a little knowledge got me as far as selecting the proper equipment and fish, but that was BEFORE I even knew there was such a thing as "cycling" a tank. I didn't find this site until I had begun to lose some fish, and then my tank stabilized, and then I got bitten by the fish bug and made some impulsive buys based on partial information, and now I have several tanks (if all this sounds FAMILIAR that's my point....)

We all arrive here at different points in the fish-keeping timeline. Those of us at the end of the line really don't enjoy being hit over the head with our own stupidity. It's the same concept as teachers not using the dunce cap anymore.

[kmgriff72]

My question is, How old are you? You say you have been fishkeeping for 9/11 years you have been breathing and by the Green Power Ranger slogan under you name my guess is you are 11 yrs old. If you are tired of people post questions that you think are dumb and asking things over and over again then quit coming and reading the post and keep your opinions to yourself. People are here for answers and support not to be told how stupid and inadequate they are. I wish that they (the forum monitors) would just take away your posting privelages if you have nothing better to do than degrade everyone who is trying to get some advice so that they don't kill their fish. You can not tell me that when you first started out that you didn't have the some of the same problems everyone in this forum are having and are trying to get advice about. No matter how much you know, things go wrong and things happen and that is just life. No one cares to read every opinion you have on how stupid people who come to this forum are. STOP POSTING YOUR OPINIONS AND START POSTING ADVICE IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

[msouth468]

I think you need a hug.

[Shelby_Tempo_GT]

Read The F*****G Manual:





most tanks do not come with manuals

The internet is not a manual.

The internet is full of lies and BS. If you think its the end-all and be-all, let me sell you an online degree, some viagara and then finish with hot naked co-eds.


You have issues dude.

[nerdyguy83]

Newbie fishkeepers often have an idyllic version of fishkeeping in their heads. They think water is water and fish will live in it no matter what you do. They go to a friends house and see a tank but never see the maintenance that goes into it, so they think it takes care of itself. My own girlfriend insists that I shouldn't have to work on my tank as much as I do because her father used to keep a guppy tank and he "never had to do anything to it". On top of that, the primary source of advice for someone new to the hobby will usually end up being the person they buy the fish from. While this is not always a terrible thing, you will run into quite a few people (especially at chains) that either don't know a whole lot about the hobby themselves (not trying to start an argument, just stating an observation) or are so tired of telling people about the nitrogen cycle that they have just given up. Some of those newbs hopefully end up at this site looking for good advice. Posts like this one scare them away. Fishkeeping can seem like a really hard thing to a newbie who has his/her dreams of a self-maintaining tank shatterred. We are supposed to be here to educate and encourage. Posts like this one should be deleted for their general tone. This one especially should be at least be moved to another section. Newbie's don't need to read it. No one does.

[Rbishop]

I think some of the articles on Aquaria Central are unnescesary for people to read. Some people just want to setup tanks, change water every once in awhile and be done with it, while others want to go deeper into the hobby. I don't think it's nescessary for people to know every single process that goes on in their aquarium, but learn information as nescessary for when something goes wrong (and that's where the experts here come in handy :cool:)

Don't mean to edit out any of your context, and I agree with your post in general.

But I do feel that the more you read ahead of time and learn minimizes things that will go wrong and cause a emergency situation.

While I don't think you have to read all posts and get confused/discouraged or over whelmed, many of the heavy hitters here have gone to great extremes to put info in very basic terms to enable folks to get a grasp on issues, before they create/develop a problem. Pro-active vice reactive is what we sum this up as.

As others note in their sigs, knowledge is power.

[reiverix]

Of course newbies come here and ask the same questions. It's kind of obvious as to why that is. No point getting all worked up about it. Just help them if you can and you are doing exactly what the forum was made for.

[wannabefishguru]

the rage, the rage, i feel the rage.

wow buddy, for some one the has only been here enough to only post less than 30 messages is already annoyed by other posters. Have you not heard of self control. so what if aquanots can't read before posting, who cares. help them out, and put a notch in the belt. Unbelievable that you would even have the nerve to bring this up. for such a "forum newbie". no body cares if you have been in the fish keeping business all of your life or just thinking about starting, i appologize for all of the other aquanots that "CHOOSE" not to read up, but simply the fact of needing to know something is that "no question is to stupid to be asked" or even answered b/c you are the one being to lazy to even help them out. like it was said before, even the elder members take the time and to direct them to to articles and what not. so from what i have aquired from this forum is that you are easily irrated and that if you were my manager i would not work for someone that probly flippes out over an accident. and i for one don't care howmany books you have, i don't have any, and i am into aquariums. oh and basicaly, an aquarium boils down to one thing, to have fun and not try looking for help and get a boot in the butt. so next time think before posting. a forum is merely a conversation on the internet, so what if you can't see the person, you still need to mind your manners.

Good Day and Good By.

[CJC]

the rage, the rage, i feel the rage.

wow buddy, for some one the has only been here enough to only post less than 30 messages is already annoyed by other posters. Have you not heard of self control. so what if aquanots can't read before posting, who cares. help them out, and put a notch in the belt. Unbelievable that you would even have the nerve to bring this up. for such a "forum newbie". no body cares if you have been in the fish keeping business all of your life or just thinking about starting, i appologize for all of the other aquanots that "CHOOSE" not to read up, but simply the fact of needing to know something is that "no question is to stupid to be asked" or even answered b/c you are the one being to lazy to even help them out. like it was said before, even the elder members take the time and to direct them to to articles and what not. so from what i have aquired from this forum is that you are easily irrated and that if you were my manager i would not work for someone that probly flippes out over an accident. and i for one don't care howmany books you have, i don't have any, and i am into aquariums. oh and basicaly, an aquarium boils down to one thing, to have fun and not try looking for help and get a boot in the butt. so next time think before posting. a forum is merely a conversation on the internet, so what if you can't see the person, you still need to mind your manners.

Good Day and Good By.


Well said!

[Marinemom]

This is directed to the person who started this thread-You are on a rant aren't you? How dare you post something like this! Do you understand that this is the newbie forum! Thank God for forums like this and the people here willing to help them. Can you imagine what would happen if they didn't come here with thier questions? Any question, no matter how many times it is asked is never a stupid question. Not asking questions is stupid. Now if you want to help newbies or anyome else for that matter, you need to calm your little butt down. If you don't want to help, then don't. People come here looking for answers, not to get thier a** whipped. So help or don't.

Marinemom

[kmgriff72]

Where did Goatman go????????
He starts this thread and when people tell him their opinions he disappears....

[reiverix]

Where did Goatman go????????He's reading the manual ;)

[Dangerdoll]

hehehehe, good one, John, hehehe :laugh:

[Shelby_Tempo_GT]

Where did Goatman go????????
He starts this thread and when people tell him their opinions he disappears....



typical of an internet tough guy.

His mom probably took away his computer priviledges.

[CJC]

typical of an internet tough guy.

His mom probably took away his computer priviledges.


:laugh: I LOVE IT!