Another great Pit Bull article. [Archive]

tankfan

06-24-2006, 2:22 PM

labont865

06-25-2006, 6:43 PM

i understand what you are saying. we live in a small town where children can go throughout town to play. some people moved in and they have at 1 house 12 pitbulls that arent really pets. they fight with each other all the time. there is another house..*same family that have 4 or 5 pit bulls about a block away. and now right next door to me , yes same family again, has moved in there and they have 1. i am very nervous for my children because they dont have it on chain. it is out in the front yard. although it seems well behaved, i dont trust it because i dont want to have to find out the hard way in what can set them off. i understand it is not necessarily the breed, but how they are taken care of, can affect there behavior. but this is what makes me nervous because i dont know how they are taken care of. i know i may seem judgemental but like i said it only takes one incident to make someones world/life change. i personally think they should be kept out of town. there are some towns around here that have an ordinance against ownership of them. i wish we had one here to tell you the truth. i know any dog can cause harm or attack. but most of the time the injuries sustained are minor compared to pit bull attacks. hope to not offend anyone....but i may not be the only one who feels this way. i do think they are a good looking breed and suppose they are put in a bad class, but i like to think of my childrens safety especially with like, what, around 15 or so pits in this small town....to me that is ridiculous.

My advice is to educate yourself on the breed. Also to intorduce yourself to your neibour and meet the dog and find out if it is friendly. There is no town that has the right to have an ordinance to keep a specific breed out of it though many do put these ordinances. Nobody has this right. I understand you want to protect your children and I commend you for it. BUT honestly it is your responsibility to do so. Build a fence around your yard and tell them they cant go outside the fence if the dog is outside, for example. You have no more right to force them to not own that dog or to leave your town then they have to do the same to you.
Pit Bulls account for less than 2% of all annual dog attacks. They have only been the cause of 4 deaths in the past 15 years. To put this into perspective, Golden retrievers account for 6% of annual dog attacks, JRTs account for 8%, and cocker spaniels account for 7%. Shih tzus have killed 5 people in the past 10 years. Why arent these dogs banned?

Last year there were well over 4.5 million dog attacks 7 fatal, and only 1.43% of them were said to be by pit bulls. Only 4 ever made it to INTERNATIONAL news and all were "Pit Bull" attacks. 2 of which werent even Pit Bulls but breeds that look similar IE: Staffordshire Terrier and an American bull dog. 2 of these attacks were fatal one was a pit bull the other was the staffordshire terrier. What about the other 5 fatal attacks that were caused by dogs ranging from a Dalmation to a pomeranian? What about the other attacks that never made it to the news? What about the other attacks that were wrongfully published as Pit Bull attacks? One of which the dog was actually a Boston Terrier another was a bloody Pug! The media builds these dogs up because they know they would never get away with blaming any other breed. Pits have a bad rep that they do not deserve. They are not naturally a human aggressive animal. They were desinged for bull baiting and thus were bred to be aggressive towards animals, but to be extremely loyal and obediant to their owners. If they are taught to be aggressive towards people by their owner they will be because they are only being the loyal obedient dog they are and doing what they have essentially been told to do by their owner. The only thing that should be done is you the human should have to be licensed to own them and "Backyard Breeders" Should be illegalized.

fishcatch22

06-25-2006, 8:18 PM

My advice is to educate yourself on the breed. Also to intorduce yourself to your neibour and meet the dog and find out if it is friendly. There is no town that has the right to have an ordinance to keep a specific breed out of it though many do put these ordinances. Nobody has this right. I understand you want to protect your children and I commend you for it. BUT honestly it is your responsibility to do so. Build a fence around your yard and tell them they cant go outside the fence if the dog is outside, for example. You have no more right to force them to not own that dog or to leave your town then they have to do the same to you.
Pit Bulls account for less than 2% of all annual dog attacks. They have only been the cause of 4 deaths in the past 15 years. To put this into perspective, Golden retrievers account for 6% of annual dog attacks, JRTs account for 8%, and cocker spaniels account for 7%. Shih tzus have killed 5 people in the past 10 years. Why arent these dogs banned?

Last year there were well over 4.5 million dog attacks 7 fatal, and only 1.43% of them were said to be by pit bulls. Only 4 ever made it to INTERNATIONAL news and all were "Pit Bull" attacks. 2 of which werent even Pit Bulls but breeds that look similar IE: Staffordshire Terrier and an American bull dog. 2 of these attacks were fatal one was a pit bull the other was the staffordshire terrier. What about the other 5 fatal attacks that were caused by dogs ranging from a Dalmation to a pomeranian? What about the other attacks that never made it to the news? What about the other attacks that were wrongfully published as Pit Bull attacks? One of which the dog was actually a Boston Terrier another was a bloody Pug! The media builds these dogs up because they know they would never get away with blaming any other breed. Pits have a bad rep that they do not deserve. They are not naturally a human aggressive animal. They were desinged for bull baiting and thus were bred to be aggressive towards animals, but to be extremely loyal and obediant to their owners. If they are taught to be aggressive towards people by their owner they will be because they are only being the loyal obedient dog they are and doing what they have essentially been told to do by their owner. The only thing that should be done is you the human should have to be licensed to own them and "Backyard Breeders" Should be illegalized.here here!! :bowing: :thm: :clap: I can understand you want to protect your kids, but think about it. if there was 15 black people in your town, and one of them started walking around his yard with a knife on occasion, would you want to ban all black people from your town!?! learn about the individual dog and breed, and then judge.

rosita

06-25-2006, 11:37 PM

My best companion is an AMSTAFF/Pointer mix. She is a buxom gal, would give Jane Russell a run for her money--broad chest. It took 5 years for us to find each other--she'd been abandoned and ran streets for a year, at an animal shelter for 2--they thought she was so awesome they couldn't put her down; when that limit was up they found a private adoption agency, who had her another 2 years.

She is the most well-mannered, dignified, unprovokeable canine I have ever known. I just spent (well, on payments) one thousand dollars to have a fracture in her upper front leg/shoulder area screwed and pinned after a break--at 8, she does not deserve to lose her life due to a broken leg. (And I thought my father was going to have a stroke!!) She exhibits physical characteristics of both the bull terrier and pointer--in fact, I've seen her go on point. Faithful, protective but accepts my friends, doesn't bother the horses or cattle on the farm, kind of hangs out with the two male dogs (Chow and Golden Ret) since she kinda acts like a boy. She was probably never adopted before due to her resemblance to a pit (and being adult). I've had students who raised fighting pit bulls--they look not only for well built blood lines, but also aggressive. And at one point I lived next door to a dude who raised fighters--way back, in the woods behind the house. Got busted, too. Did some time.
FACTORS: bloodlines, how they are raised, and how they are treated throughout their lives. If they have bad blood, can't change it. Evil is as evil does. Seeing any large dog I don't know in my neighborhood--if the neighbors ARE approachable, talking's the best way to go. Sometimes they are very defensive and/or aggressive--gun totin', hard drinkin' meanies--call the cops if dogs are loose.

tankfan

06-26-2006, 2:21 AM

i guess im just bein silly to have an opinion or wanting to be cautious about the situation that has come up. i didnt say i hated them. i just said that i am concerned because i dont know how it was treated or if it is friendly. and yes i will approach the neighbors and ask them to please put it on a chain when it is out in the yard. that IS a town ordinance for all dogs here no matter what breed. and i dont know what the guy the brought race into the mix for..but thats something entirely different and has no reason to be brought up. i am not predjudice or hateful myself. like i said i dont hate these dogs...im just worried because i dont know how they are taken care of...that was all. im sure they are great pets to those that know how to care and treat them. but how is one to know how truly they are taken care of.
a friend of mine a long time ago was responsible for feeding 8 pit bulls on a farm. He said that they werent bad or mean....except one. he said it took him like 3-4 weeks before he could even get into chain reach of this mean one. now in saying that, i will tell you that they got this particular pitbull as a retired fighter from florida. so that would explain the aggression there, right? now for the owner.....this owner as i was told by the friend who went and fed these dogs....would light large explosives and throw it into the pen and the pitbull would pick it up and it would explode right in its mouth!! Unbeleivable and stupid dont you think? I do. after that 1 exploded, he would throw in another 1 and the dog would pick it up again and it would explode! blood coming out of its mouth and everything. if iwouldve been there i wouldve had the thought of sticking one of those explosives YOU KNOW WHERE and see how he liked it.

i told this story in MY defense of being concerned as how they are taken care of. please dont make me out to be prejudice or anti pitbull. i know it sounds like it by what i am writing. i am just writing as a concerened parent.
like i said before i think they are beautiful and im sure they are loyal and protective. its HOW protective will this dog be? that worries me too. will he think that MY yard is part of his territory? these are just concerns i have...not trying to be the bad guy here.

msouth468

06-26-2006, 9:00 AM

Well, I can't say I agree with the percentages given for the Pit Bull attacks. A quick search showed that although they weren't the main source of dog attacks. They did account for at least 20% of any given amount of dog attacks in a particular area. This shows that banning that particular breed won't reduce dog attacks significantly. But, it does show that they are an aggressive dog species that may be more prone to attacks than others. Also, attacks on the owner were less than 1%. This is significant in the sense that the dog may be loyal and calm to the owner. But, not so much to other people.

I guess what I am saying is that banning may not be a way to fix the problem of dog attacks. But, caution should be taken around pitbulls because they MAY be more prone to aggresion twoards strangers than other dogs.

And remember I said MAY be prone.

DansMarineTank

06-26-2006, 9:59 AM

here here!! :bowing: :thm: :clap: I can understand you want to protect your kids, but think about it. if there was 15 black people in your town, and one of them started walking around his yard with a knife on occasion, would you want to ban all black people from your town!?! learn about the individual dog and breed, and then judge.

Nonsense, why should you have to learn about someone elses pet! keep it in the back yard or chain it up, no one should frear for thier kids playing in the street. I have a german sheppard hes soft as anything but i would not leave him to his own devices in the front yard when there are kids about!

labont865

06-26-2006, 12:06 PM

Nonsense, why should you have to learn about someone elses pet! keep it in the back yard or chain it up, no one should frear for thier kids playing in the street. I have a german sheppard hes soft as anything but i would not leave him to his own devices in the front yard when there are kids about!

Totally not what I was trying to say. I was merely saying that we have no right to ban the dogs. All my dogs are kept in a 9 foot fenced area. I agree that the owner should keep the dog contained in some way. I was merely pointing out a way to help the situation.

I have to take off to work but will post a little later in detail about what I meant and some responses to your posts.

DaisyTattoo

06-26-2006, 12:28 PM

I have a German Shep/Malamute mix and a Choc Lab/Pit mix and I'll be the first to tell ya that the German Shep is gonna bite ya. The pit mix wont. Sheps are one of the highest percentages of bites. Should we ban them? My Shep WILL BITE! Thats what I got her for. Personally, I wouldnt trust my kid around ANY strange dog, no matter what the breed or size. I would also like to mention that the smaller breeds bite MUCH more often than the big breeds, even pits. The only difference is the amount of damage done. People usually dont report those types of bites. I used to work at a shelter so I can honestly say that I would trust a Pit to any small dog any day. I have a friend that also breeds and raises pits. She has 6 adults at her house and only one of them has ever bitten and it wasnt even a bad bite. She will not breed that particular dog bc of the bite. If the breeders are responsible and are careful to check into who they are giving their dogs to(which she also does) they can be a WONDERFUL breed to have.

labont865

06-26-2006, 1:12 PM

Okay now. Please nobody take any of these posts personally I have no intention to be rude or sound mean I am just gonna state the facts I know from my studies about the breed that I and other have conducted over my 8 years as a breeder and my 20 years owning pits.

MsSouth: The percentages are accurate. Pulled directly from independant studies by Universities, and Kennel clubs and other independant organizations. I am sure they have had alot more time and money invested in these studies than quick google searches. The numbers are also per-capita percentages in registered animals. The attack/bite numbers may also include estimates including un-reported atacks.
Pit Bulls per capita are the 4th safest dog in exsistance. Yes there are areas where they account for nearly 100% of all dog attacks in a year. But they still in total in world population acount for less than 2 percent of domestic dog attacks. There are areas where ordinance need to be put in, but it is not to ban the dog. It is more in banning ownership of the dog if you are not qualified to own them. And also in banning "Backyard breeders. If this was done there would be no issues with these dogs at all.

Tankfan: I hope you didnt take my response to your first post as me attacking you or anything. I was merely trying to shed some light on your situation. The main problem ther is honestly a lack of knowledge of the animals. It is your responsibility to protect your kids right? this is wy i said to try to meet the owners and get to know the dog. If the dog knows you and your family that is gonna seriously reduce any chance of any aggression towards your kids. Pit being an extremely loyal dog and all. If they know your kids and et to see your kids frequently the dog is actually more likely to protect hem than be aggressive towards them. I do agree the owner should at least tie him up or something. NO dog whatever the breed should be allowed outside in an un-fenced yard without being restrained in some way. I was merely trying to make it cear that your reasoning for banning the dogs from your town made no sence as there are many other steps that can be taken first. I respect your opinion and I 100% respect your protectiveness of your kids. BUT they are your responsibility, and if you go and approach the situation th wrong way it will simply cause more issues and if you leave the situation idle and dont do anything to try and better the situation and the dog were to attack or bite one of your children, this is just as much your fault as the dog and the owners fault. It is a two way street. However if you askt he owner to tie it up or you take initiative to get to kno the owner and the animal, and then it bites one of your kids the dog should be immediately destroyed and the owner should be charged.

The bottom line is: We as humans live as by a code of inocent until proven guilty. It makes no difference what colour you are or where you are from. Well why cant these dogs have that same right? Wy do we have to punish an entire breed because of the actions of the irresponsible owners?
Did you know there are over 1 million pit bulls on the world right now? even if 100K of these attack or bite somebody that is still only 10% of them. Does this justify banning over 1 million dogs? Does this justify euthanizing over 1 million inocent animals. Did you knwo that when Ontario banned Pit Bulls, they gave the owners 3 weeks to find new homes for the dogs out of province before they started taking th dogs by force if necessary and if the dogs were in the kennel for mor than another month they were euthanized. out of nearly 100000 Pits in Ontario there are rumours of only 10000 of them making out of Ontario alive. This is essentialy genocide. This is all because people refuse to belive the facts about dog attacks. and are strongly baised simply because of the dogs abilities and because they get more media attention than any other breed that attacks or bites a human.
My home town had a rash of about 30 attacks in about a month, 1 was by a pit bull the rest were a mix of other breeds. 4 made it to the news here, all were said to be "Pit Bull type breeds". In truth 1 was actually a pit, 2 were mastiffs, and one was a great dane. A bloody great dane! I didnt realize a great dane was a pit bull type dog. Anyways tis is the media biase because they know they will get more attentin by having pit bull in the title of the report. Ther were 12 of the atack commited by border collies. These wee not even mentioned in the news, yet one of the attacks by the border collie led to the amputation of a young girls arm. If this isnt biased I dont know what is.
What about the instance of the shih tzu mauling the 2 month old baby and kiling it, and the dog not even being put to sleep? If it was a pit there would be mass requests to ban th breed, yet this dog that kille the baby wasnt even ordered to be put to sleep. The owner did end up having it put down as the dog just killed teir new-born baby, but for the courts not to ORDER the dog to be destroyed this shows extreme biased and discrimination towards the breed of pit bulls.

The breed should not be punished for being Pit Bulls. Lets punish the deed not the breed. Just like we do every other breed of dog.
I have personally had more than 200 pits come through my home, only two have ever bitten somebody. Both in defence of their family. and both doing exsactly what they were trained to do. A friend of mine breeds retrievers, out of less than 100 dogs out of his kennel 16 have bitten and/or attacked someone.
There are much better things to wory about and to stress about than the dogs being pit bulls. Now being worried about a particular dog, or being woried about the dogs of a particular owner or group of owners I can undrstand and agree with but to wory abotu a dog simply because of its breed is rediculous, a show of ignornce toward the breed, and a show of serious discrimination.

This is my opinion and some fat to support why I have this opnion, I understand that some of you dotn agree and will have a different opinion. I am not trying to force mine on you, if you dont like the dog, you dont like the dog, that is fine with me. BUT dont try and force your opinion on me by trying to have my dogs banned and taken aay from me. As they are members of my family and I will protect them as if they are.

msouth468

06-26-2006, 1:55 PM

Phew...that was a good read. I've got a few things to say, nothing bad, I think.

Are you talking per-capita for all registered breeds or just for the Pit-bull? Or talking about the United States as a whole? Per-capita is a horrible percentage to base any statistic off of simply for the fact that amounts are factored in that are not relivent to the statistic. And, if you have links to these statistics or studies that would be great. It is true that I did just do a google search, but that doesn't discredit the websites I visited. If you are going to defend a subject with percentages, you should cite where you got the info from so it doesn't look like you are just pulling numbers from the air to support your view. I hope I'm not offending you too bad (or at all).

labont865

06-26-2006, 2:08 PM

No, not offended at all. The first post in the thread has a link that doesnt have concrete link or anything but it does state one of the institutions that has done a study so you could check them and probably get some good numbers.

I am talking per capita for all species world wide. Most of the studies are based aorund the 120 or so most common breeds in the world.
Sorry I am at work rigth now so I dont have access to most of my info at the moment.
I will do what i can when I get home.

phoenixfyre

06-26-2006, 2:13 PM

Yes you have to be very careful with statistics, they can easily be manipulated.

The numbers are also per-capita percentages in registered animals. The attack/bite numbers may also include estimates including un-reported atacks.

per capita, and registered. The thing is that the street pit is generally not a registered pure animal. There actually is no such breed as the pit bull; it is not recognized. So, they wouldn't be registered with AKC or CanKC; if registered means with the city/town, then can you imagine how many thugs dutifully buy licences for their dogs every year?? Not too many. AmStaffs and other bully breeds- since those dogs have been selectively bred, it is not surprising that the responsible breeders have carefully worked on temperament.

It is your responsibility to protect your kids right? this is wy i said to try to meet the owners and get to know the dog. ... this is just as much your fault as the dog and the owners fault. It is a two way street. However if you askt he owner to tie it up or you take initiative to get to kno the owner and the animal, and then it bites one of your kids the dog should be immediately destroyed and the owner should be charged.

Actually it is not a two way street. If your dog bites, you are liable. It is ridiculous to put the onus/blame on a parent UNLESS the child has provoked the dog. This argument is akin to it is your fault if you are raped due to the clothes you wear, or it is your fault that your house is broken into because you don't have a security system. The dog owner is ultimately responsible for the child's welfare.

Did you knwo that when Ontario banned Pit Bulls, they gave the owners 3 weeks to find new homes for the dogs out of province before they started taking th dogs by force if necessary and if the dogs were in the kennel for mor than another month they were euthanized. out of nearly 100000 Pits in Ontario there are rumours of only 10000 of them making out of Ontario alive.

Actually this is not true. The Ontario bsl (Breed specific legislation) is a bane to pit bull owners, yes. But the ban did not force owners to get rid of their dogs. Pit bull owners need to comply with certain rules (spay/neuter, muzzles, no off-leash). The Toronto SPCA is full of pits and pit crosses, so obviously they are not being euthanized. Current pit owners are allowed to replace their dogs with another pit. Mainly the ban was against the breeding of more pit bulls. I'm not sure where you derived your stat about only 10000 animals making it out of Ontario alive. There are many still here, alive and well (but sadly muzzled).

I am not for BSL. In Ontario, it is very sad to see all pits muzzled. Many individuals are fighting this law in the courts and in political arenas. BUT it does no good to fight by spreading information that is untrue. I do agree with you that we should be looking at irresponsible owners, and not generalizing about the dog. But we should also not be fooling ourselves by imagining that the bully breeds are for everyone, or that they can be treated like any other (non-dog aggressive) breed. They do require special handling, and the wrong handling can result in very dangerous situations (and there are more breeds than pits that this is true for, I know).
If I were you, tankfan, I'd mention to the neighbours ONCE to get that dog tied up or restrained, and then I'd be calling the police or animal services.

msouth468

06-26-2006, 2:26 PM

DaisyTattoo

06-26-2006, 2:39 PM

Back in the 80's and early 90's it was the Rotties and the Dobies that everyone was afraid of. They were the ones all over the news whenever someone was bitten or "mauled" but along came the pitbull and those breeds diappeared from the news. In the next 10 years or so the "thugs" will decide they like a different breed, will start training them to attack and begin fighting and abusing them, then the spotlight will be on a different breed. I'm surprised Shar Pei's haven't been picked yet. They were bred for fighting, they are also known to be very much 1 owner/family dogs. They would be the perfect canidate for the Pit replacement. Must not be mean enough looking .

labont865

06-26-2006, 2:41 PM

Unfortunately Pheonixfyre you are wrong. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a recognized breed.

The BSL was altered after the initial introduction. I personally recieved 15 dogs from Ontario. The provincial law, you may be correct about now, but there were many municipalities that took it a step further. The parents and 4 siblings of two of the dogs I recieved were forcefully euthanized. But yes you may be correct about the current rules of the BSL. They have changed it quite a bit since introducing it because of loop holes making it legal to take action against any dog resembling a pit bull under the rules of the BSL.

It is a two way street, in that in you do not take action to protect your children you are just as guilty. This is a matter of opinion. Yours is different and that is fine. If somebody comes into my property and is bitten by one of my dogs that is not my fault. I have my dogs in a fenced area and if somebody comes in and gets bit that is 100% their fault. At the same token, if the kids are in the dogs yard and it were to bite one of them it is only half at fault. Many dogs are guard dogs, an many are protective. If you come into their yard it may percieved as a threat and thus the dog may bite. The dog and owners can only be deemed responsible in certain situations.
Tankfans situation would be the dog owners fault, I have no quible with that. What I am saying is, it is her responsibility to protect her children, I am merely offering suggestions of better ways to handle the situation than calling the cops, and causing a fewed and bad blood with her neighbours. If the situation arises the owners should be orced to build a fence or chain the dog. BUT if tankfan can avoid that situation by simply meeting the owner and the dog, this would be a much beter solution. Dont you think?

Also to the rest of you. if you have checked the links in my signature please do, it may shed some light as to why some of these dogs are aggressive, and have instability issues. Especially rescue animals.

labont865

06-26-2006, 2:51 PM

I did a little looking and there are higher percentages of "Pit Bull" type dog attacks. And I can see the biased in both opinions now. People against Pit bulls probably don't know there is more than one type. And people for pit bulls probably think that their specific breed of "Pit Bull" type of dog is being personally attacked. I personally won't ever own a "Pit Bull" just because I don't want one. But, I won't condem the breeds based off some attacks. Seeing that there is no genetic evidence to show one type of dog is more aggressive than another, one can only asssume that handling and training are the major issues involved in this. Hell, I own a rotwieler (came with the house I bought, heh...) and I constantly have to put up with peoples BS with thinking she will kill whatever comes around. Needless to say she is scared of everything and I have to chain her up (I live in the country BTW) when I do target practice or even burn some leaves or sticks. Because she will literally run away from being so scared.

Yes you ar eright, there are multiple types of dogs that are constanly refered to as Pit bulls. BUT there is only one breed that is actually truely a Pit Bull and that is the American Pit Bull Terrier. There are other that are constantly referd to as pit bulls aka: Amstaffs, and other types of staffordhsire terrier, there are Boston red nosed pit buls which are actually a type of staffordshire terrier as well. In total there are abut 15 breeds constantly accused of being pit bulls. And this is what causes huge issues. When I talk and post somehting I am refering to one breed and one only, the APBT. But unfortunately when alot of statistics aying pits account for huge amounts of atacks they do not take that into consideration, that the dog may actually be a amstaff, staffordshire bull terier, a bull terrier, a staffordshire terrier, a british staffordshire terier etc. They just label them a Pit Bulsl and this is what the major issue is. Because it makes the Pit Bul look ten times worse than they actually are.

sorry guys my spelling today is horrible. hahaha trying to type as fast as I can sinc eI am at work right now.

labont865

06-26-2006, 3:20 PM

Sorry yet another post in a row. hahaha

To clarify and gt into my last post.

20% of attacks are by pit bulls is what was said right?
When infact they are counting numerous breeds of dog a s pit bulls.
in truth the APBT accounts for less than 2%
the AMstaff accounts for 3% etc. etc.
With 15 breeds commonly counted as pit bulls it isnt hard to see where alot of these people get the 20% from. This is why i say people really need to educate themselves on the breed and what they are actualy discriminating against.

That dog that just bit your kid that looks liek a pit, and you told the news was a pit could have actually been a staffie, thus wrongfully chalk one up to the pit bull atack percentage.

Does that make sence?

I mean if somebody liek pheonixfyre who actually seem somehwta educated on the subject didnt even realize that the APBT is officially recognized as a breed now then how many people out there who have never taken any time at all to actually do any reading up on the breed make the mistake of wrongfull accusations?

I dont know if any of you remeber when I posted my photoshop image of about 10 different breeds of dogs typically called pit bulls. I posted it on two websites. Out of 500 people who voted between the two websites, only 7 were able to correctly tell me which dog in the picture was the real pit bull.

nccoastal

06-26-2006, 4:01 PM

I thought that dalmations were responsible for more bites than any other dog. The JA next door has 15 pitbulls in an area of 1/2 mill houses. They are working on law right now to make a maxium amount of dogs. whatever as long as one does not come in my yard he gets a bullet b4 he goes down the street and bites another little girl. there might be a good pitbull out there, i have never seen one. I told the guy first i shoot the dog then i punch him

labont865

06-26-2006, 4:20 PM

Here are some of the sites some of ym references and stats come from.

stats:
www.pitbullregistry.com
www.atts.org

references:
www.pbrc.net
www.realpitbull.com
www.badrap.org
www.loveabull.org
www.pitprintsrescue.com

direct links:
www.realpitbull.com/myths.html
www.pbrc.net/petbull/sadreality.html
www.members.aol.com/bstofshw/fatcs.html
www.thedogplace.com/hotnews/av6.asp

NCcoastal: Jack russel terriers are responsible for te most bites. Dalmations are in the top 10.
I agree 15 dogs in one home is too much unless you are a breeder or a kennel facility with the proper setup.
For you to say if one comes in your yard your gonna shoot it makes me think of either a redneck,or white trash, or 12 year old kid trying to sound cool.
If the dog comes in your yard yell at it and tell it to leave. If it comes in your yard and attacks somebody or something then yes shoot the bloody thing if thats what you feel needs to be done. This goes for all dogs, not just pit bulls.
You obviously are quite un-educated about pit bulls or you would be embarrased you even wrote that post.

nccoastal

06-26-2006, 10:03 PM

well i can tell you right now i not 12 or white trash/redneck. keep your insults to yourself. like this the last time i got my son in the house and just watch the dog come to my door and bark grown and bite at the door. I called animal control b4 they get dog he bit a little girl down the street a fe times. You Call them what you want i will always call them target practice. Maybe you hAVE SOME nice pitbulls happy for you. move next door to me and let yours run out the yard. with pit bulls around here the whole town is shoot first ask questions later. That is the bad rap they have and it will probally never change. sorry the 1 million bad pitbulls out there ruin it for your 5 nice ones. That does not give you the right to slander me.

LOL wait tilll it bites then shoot. should i wait for someone robbing me to stab/shoot me b4 I defend myself.

tankfan

06-26-2006, 10:41 PM

labont865

06-27-2006, 12:20 AM

well this is a very good topic/discussion. no winners or losers here. i can tell you i am not or will be responsible in any way if my child was attacked. because the way i see it, if you own one of the pitbull, rott, sheperd, or any dobe breed you should know the precautions that should be taken as these are the dogs that most people worry about. if you dont take them as its owner, then you are the ONLY one responsible. the only stat i can give is that if my child was attacked....the pit or any dog for that matter would be 100% destroyed.

I agree. The owner should be taking the right precautions, but in the case that they dont like yours, you need to take the action of protecting your children that is all I am saying. You are responsinble for protecting your children, but you are not responsible for the dogs or the dogs owners actions. But as being the responsible parent you must do what is needed and liek a said before, instead of causing a feud between you and the owner by calling the cops or something try getting to know them and the dog to prevent the whole situation in the first place. Does this only make sence to me?

NCcoatal- I didnt call you white trash or a redneck. I said it made me think of white trash and rednecks. That was in no way calling you one. Or it wasnt meant to be anyway.
The only thing I said that I meant to be taken directyl by you is that you are clearly not at all educated about pit bulls. The only thing you seem to know is what you hear from other pit haters. Like I said I have had over 200 pits come through my home and only 2 have ever bitten somebody and both were in defence of their families and the courts deemed the bites as un-criminal and un-punishable. That is less than a 1% bite ratio. That doesnt sound to me like they are crazy monsters.
I am sorry to hear that your neighbour has poorly trained dogs and is not a responsible owner. But this isnt the dogs fault. What you should do is call the ASPCA or track down an animal rescue, NOT animal control and tell them the situation. They will go to the house and if they deem the owner unfit or the living conditions un-satisfactory they will take the dogs and get them to proper homes where they can be properly cared for.
About shooting them Yes I strongly believe that nothing should be shot until it is necessary, whether it is a person or dog. If it enters your yard it doesnt mean it is there to hurt you.
If a frickin cow came into your yard would you shoot it just cause its there? No, the only reason you are saying you would shoot the dog is because it is a pit bull and you automatically think they are bad animals and you are biased and un-educated about them.

phoenixfyre

06-27-2006, 1:32 AM

I mean if somebody liek pheonixfyre who actually seem somehwta educated on the subject didnt even realize that the APBT is officially recognized as a breed now then how many people out there who have never taken any time at all to actually do any reading up on the breed make the mistake of wrongfull accusations?

I didn't say that the APBT wasn't recognized. I said the pit bull was not a breed. Pit bulls refer to a large number of different dogs, including Am Staffs and others. You actually corroborate my point when you list the breakdown of all of the dogs classified as pitbulls re. the biting statistics.

Anyway, I agree with many of your points about parents and responsibility; but if a dog is not tied up and could leave the property and hurt any other dog or child on the street, then the dog owner is 100% liable. That is the case in tankfan's situation, it is not hypothetical.

To clarify about Ontario: Some municipalities have more stringent BSL regulations than the provincial bill. London, I believe, is one city that may have banned ownership, and this was the case before Ontario law took effect- so it overrides the provincial law in their jurisdiction. The provincial bsl has not changed so far as I know. Spay/neuter, no new puppies (they are unfortunately euthanized if found), muzzled in public, no off leash.

phoenixfyre

06-27-2006, 8:12 AM

Unfortunately Pheonixfyre you are wrong. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a recognized breed.

No I'm not.

The Pit Bull, as I stated, is not a recognized breed. The APBT is not recognized either by the American Kennel Club or the Canadian Kennel Club (although they are registerable by other less reputable clubs). The Am Staff is a recognized breed by the AKC.

From a pro pit website:

" "Pit bull" is not a breed, but a "type" that encompasses several registered breeds and crossbreeds. Therefore, statistics that claim "Pit bulls" are responsible for some percentage of attacks are lumping many separate breeds together, then comparing that to other dogs that are counted as individual breeds. " (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/legislation.php)

DansMarineTank

06-27-2006, 9:13 AM

labont865 Firstly the pictures of your dogs are beautifull they look like very healthy well raised dogs, i have no doubt that you have raised yours so that they are friendly and non agressive given your passion for the breed and i can understand where you are comming from.

however, being a dog owner myself, i can still say i would be somewhat, not scared, but uneasy to see a pit bull off its leash in the park when kids were around, the same as i would if i saw a dobermen or a rotwieler (spelling) however being a German Shepherd owner i would feel comfortable seeing a GSD I think thats could be where your comming from a little.

I also would like to thank you for the way you've handled this debate i dont think you have been harsh with anyone

DansMarineTank

06-27-2006, 9:15 AM

No I'm not.

The Pit Bull, as I stated, is not a recognized breed. The APBT is not recognized either by the American Kennel Club or the Canadian Kennel Club (although they are registerable by other less reputable clubs). The Am Staff is a recognized breed by the AKC.

From a pro pit website:

" "Pit bull" is not a breed, but a "type" that encompasses several registered breeds and crossbreeds. Therefore, statistics that claim "Pit bulls" are responsible for some percentage of attacks are lumping many separate breeds together, then comparing that to other dogs that are counted as individual breeds. " (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/legislation.php)

I think you've just made his point for him

DaisyTattoo

06-27-2006, 11:16 AM

Here is the reality folks. Any dog can bite. Any breed can bite. As far as my son goes, any dog that is not restrained is a threat. I don't trust any dog regardless of breed or size. Personally, having worked in an animal shelter and my main area was the large dogs, I am not afraid of them. But, I take no chances when it comes to my son. I treat all breeds the same. Each dog has it's own history and therefore has it's own personality. There is probably very few if no breeds that do not have at least one confirmed bite. It is not the breeds, but the owners. The main reason the pit breed has a bad rap is that criminals and unethical people decide they like the large chested, large head and mean look of them. If you are afraid of the breed, educate yourself. Havent any of you seen the Dog Whisperer?

DansMarineTank

06-27-2006, 11:45 AM

rosita

06-27-2006, 11:45 AM

1. When I adopted my AmStaff mix, I researched them. From photos and info on the internet, it was my understanding that they were used in developing the American Pit Bull? Just curious.

2. After reading the continued posts, I remember when I went down the trail to catch my filly--she'd hightailed it down to visit the local stunted stallion who had earlier destroyed my wood fence (and raped the filly all night), and she figured out how to break it down. The owners used to be friends. They own, besides 2 4yo well-bred untrained TWH's with no shelter, a breeding pair of bloodhounds, 4 grown offspring whom they couldn't sell, all dangerous, and kept under the deck, and daughter with baby has an untrained pit bull (surprised?) That dog was let out of the house as they came out (they were expecting me), ran straight to me, and, unprovoked, leapt up and grabbed my wrist in its mouth. If he'd broken skin, I would have broken his neck as I'm fed up with these morons.

These are ignorant, mentally challenged people who understand nothing of animals or children or how to interact with others. Rednecks, drunks, inconsiderate louts, users and abusers, liars, plain stupid, whatever. The 4 children are mostly grown now and all screwed up--her son, at 11, sexually abused a 5 year old girl in the back bathroom while the group of adults prepared food (while drinking ) for a work party. He's in Florida now. POINT: The humans involved in raising young, whatever the species, need to be somewhat intelligent, responsible people or you'll have trouble!!!!

phoenixfyre

06-27-2006, 11:52 AM

I think you've just made his point for him

um, no. He corrected me when i said pit bulls were not a breed. In fact, pit bulls are not a breed, but a type. The type consists of mixes and registered/recognized breeds, like the Amstaff. And, the APBT is not recognized by reputable clubs such as the AKC and the CanKC.

DaisyTattoo

06-27-2006, 11:56 AM

i dont know if it was aimed at me but if it was; Like you i did not say i was scared but uneasy if theres kids involved. Never seen the Dog whisperer but i have seen the horse wisperer now i no longer fear horses ;-)
It wasn't directed at you ;) I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular. Just felt like busting out with it lol. Anyway, seriously for anyone that has not see The Dog Whisperer...check it out. That is the best freakin dog show ever. This guy knows his stuff...no kidding. And I am not easily impressed. I have used some of the techniques on his show on my own dogs, and they work!!! It is on the National Geographic Channel on Fridays at 7pm central time.

labont865

06-27-2006, 3:17 PM

um, no. He corrected me when i said pit bulls were not a breed. In fact, pit bulls are not a breed, but a type. The type consists of mixes and registered/recognized breeds, like the Amstaff. And, the APBT is not recognized by reputable clubs such as the AKC and the CanKC.

You are partly right in this statement. The APBT was a human created breed. BUT any breed that has exsisted for over oh shoot I forget something like 200 years in its current fomr is considered a breed.
The reason the AKC and CKC dont officially recognize the breed is actually the politics. I recently read a article in our local newspaper stating something about the CKC not recognizing them at the moment simply because of all the fuss being made about them currently throughout Canada and they were assuming that the breed may not exist towrds the end of the decade due to mass euthanization. Now I am not too sure how much of this is accurate but I know 100% the number of associations that recognize the APBT now far out numbers the amount that dont recognize it. Its something like 70%-30% now

gotta take off for a bit be back in awhile to finish up.

polocrosseplyer

06-27-2006, 4:55 PM

just found this thread.. kind of surprised to see it on here. But i'm a dog lover, any kind dont care - we have a lab/pit mix - the dumbest dog ever, but we love him - yet my dad thinks all pit bulls should be banned..
i know someone before was talking about parents responsibility and owners resp. of a large dog and knowing the consequences, but is it really the owners fault that while keeping 2 huskies in the back yard privacy wood fence and repeatedly telling the parents of a little girl to not let her climb the fence because the dogs are protective, eventually she got hurt still the pet owner's fault?
if i had the ability i would rescue all the "mean" unwanted dogs I could.. and probably will along with all the unwanted horses, cats and whatever else i can find.

Just felt like putting a little bit in here since dad and boyfriend hate pits anything that looks like bits (yet we have one, and b/f has a boxer and wants a bulldog). I just think that some things just seem to get out of hand and it really makes me want to leave the US - no offense i totally support the country(sister is in the military), but people are so close minded and uneducated about certain things ( which im sure is everywhere) that is surprises me that we even get along 1/2 the time. And why can't people change? If we would put a little more money/time into educating people, not just about dogs, but fixing up areas that are in a decline, people overall would have a better understanding of life. anyways gotta finish working and sorry for the mispelled stuff.

nccoastal

06-27-2006, 5:13 PM

polocrosseplyer

06-27-2006, 5:19 PM

whoa.... i cant think of anything else to say to that.. i'm sure there are some things but you might say it has nothing to do with the topic.. but you are entitled to your opinion and since no one can change that i guess you'll just keep it.

labont865

06-27-2006, 9:27 PM

I am not uneducated about pitbulls. Show me and article where a pitbull did not attack someone. Can you live with the fact you could have stopped a pitbull from ruining a families life? I did not think that when he left his yard he would do what he did. You can tell me all these facts if you want or post websites containing them. Propaganda. there might be nice pitbulls out there. Here they will be shot by anyone in the town on site. People like you try to convince ppl that not all pitbulls are bad. truth is they were breed for one reason and one reason only. It might breed out of them i doubt it.

A pitbull comes in the yard how do you know how he was raised.

Seriously man, you should stop posting in here right now, because with every post you just make yourself look worse and worse. I could within 5 minutes show your 1000s of articles that are attacks that arent done by pits.
You are honestly VERY uneducated about them. You have proved this to everybody here.
I dont really understand half of what you posted either. How could I have stopped a pit bull from ruining a families life? None of the dogs I have sold or bred have ever ruined a families life. I dont understand what you are saying.

And I have posted sites adn facts, You just refuse to pay attention to them. you prove it by saying they were bred for one thing and one thing only. This I would assume you are meaning "to be killers" or something similar. This proves to me that you are un-educated about them. They were bred to be loyal to humans and aggressive towards other animals, as were most terrier breeds. They were never bred to be aggressive towards people.
A little tid-bit to show this is: When they were bred to fight in pits, there were men in the pits with the dogs in every fight. The dogs could not be aggressive towards the men, only aggressive towards the other dogs. If a man took his dog into a pit fight and it won he needed to know he could then take the dog and take it home and treat its wounds and work with it without getting bitten or attacked. If the dog was aggressive towards the men, they would be put to sleep simply because they wouldnt be ablt to control them at the during and after a fight and probably wouldnt be able to treat their wounds without getting bitten. Aggression towards humans was bred out of them if anything. This in itself proves to an extent that you are wrong. Unfortunately an un-trained dog is essentially a wild animal, and all and I mean all wild animals are un-predictable, no matter what species or breed they are.

I do also have to say that with every post you just sound more and more like you are just trying to troll up this thread. Sorry I dont mean to sound rude or anything but its true.

OrionGirl

06-27-2006, 9:51 PM

Hmmm...Should we ban cars to prevent car accidents?

How many laws need to be passed to prevent human stupidity from thinning the gene pool? Personally, I'm in favor of adding a bit more chlorine.

Dogs bite. All dogs--yes, every swinging one of them--can be provoked enough to bite. I have 2 wonderful four legged friends. One of them is a pointer mix, and is the gentlest 70 pounds you've ever seen. Little kids come charging up, and he just flops over, let's them crawl on him, pull his ears, walk on him, whatever. But--if an adult he doesn't know comes near, he's very aggressive until I tell him it's okay. I've never had to find out, but I'm pretty sure he'd attack someone who was attacking me--and I love him all the more for that! The other dog is friendly and happy around most adults, though cautious around ones he doesn't know, particularly if my husband and I aren't around. He wants hugs from everyone, loves going to the dog park to get petted. But I do NOT trust him around kids! He doesn't like kids, growls and barks, hackles raised, anytime kids are around, even if they aren't trying to pet him. He's never bitten, but I make sure he doesn't have the chance.

Everyone has the right to 'hate' anything they please, but to do so in a thread like this is to expose your own bias and ignorance. Your choice. Don't attack someone else for identifying this fact, and don't act like it makes you right to be an extremist.

labont865

06-27-2006, 9:59 PM

O.G. has spoken!! Hahaha O.G. I missed you and love you!!! Hahaha Unless of course you are directing that at me then GRRRR I AM ANGRY AAAAAARGH!! Hahaha.

But seriously though. Yes you are right.

Also NCcoastal: Your right I dont know how a dog was trained when it enters my yard, but the question is the same for you. How do you know how a dog is trained when it enters your yard? You dont know hence giving you even less right to shoot it as you say you would.

kittyhazelton

06-28-2006, 4:47 AM

oooooh, I want a pit bull. Too bad my apartment is already crammed full of animals as it is. I've never owned one, but I think they are a gorgeous breed.
I find myself facing the same biased, discrimination, and ignorance about my reptiles. I have an 8' albino burmese python and soooooo many people have it in thier minds that one of these days this snake is going to eat me. I've had trouble finding an apartment simply because people just dont like them. not ONCE have I been bitten or attacked by this snake. I even take him to the schools around here for show and tell and education.
Alot of places have laws that ban large reptiles because they are "dangerous" and "unpredictable" In reality the only thing that makes them dangerous is improper care and handling, lack of education by the owner, and sheer human stupidity. I'm sure that there would be quite a fit here if alot of places banned the sale/purchase of lionfishes simply because they are poisonous.
One thing I do support 100% is not banning, but the requirment of permits for keeping certain animals. It would discourage those who don't know how to properly care for these animals, and it would keep these creatures in the hands of responsible pet owners. If you can afford the vet bill for an animal, then you can afford to register/permit/whatever your pet. I think the animal abuse laws should be alot more strict, and that "backyard breeders" should be outlawed and that you should be required to have some kind of license if you are breeding any animal.

msouth468

06-28-2006, 8:43 AM

Well, if you want to get technical about it. Most "Pit bull" breeds were not breed to fight. Usually they were breed for either security or large animal herding (cow, hog). I think the only dog that was really breed to fight other dogs was the bulldog. And that was after it was already around and not it's sole purpose.

UncaBret

06-28-2006, 11:08 AM

move next door to me
Heck, no, I might get shot!

>>Please do not support the punishment of Pit Bulls for the sins of some of the unscrupulous people who own them.<<

I love this sentiment. Of course, you could replace 'Pit Bulls' with a lot of things.

Shelby_Tempo_GT

06-28-2006, 12:57 PM

Hmmm...Should we ban cars to prevent car accidents?

No, but certain car models have been banned from North American roads as they have been deemed too dangerous to co-exist with other vehicles.

This pitbull ban thing is not as simply as comparing them to cars or guns. Its a living, breathing animal and should be considered as such when any discussion takes place.

I think ultimately, its not the dog, its the people that own them that cause the fear in the populace. These people would make a toy poodle into a feral dog if given the chance***.

*** please note, I am not referring to civilized, responsible owners. I'm taking about the trailer park types that want to have a "killing machine" on the end of the leash to make themselves look tough. These were thew ones that gave Rotties and Dobies a bad name in the 70s and 80s

tankfan

06-28-2006, 1:20 PM

well all this talk about being educated about pitbulls makes sense. but if you ask me the only ones that really need educated are the ones that want to own one. I realize all of you that prize this breed obviously take proper care and are VERY WELL EDUCATED...props to you all. but its the owners that arent that i worry about. as for the car comparison....lol....will you buy a car that has a poor crash protective rating? or would you go ahead and buy it because someone else had good experience with it? no , you wouldnt. you have to trust the people that studied it. same here with these dogs. you have to really beleive that most take care of animals ok. but youll never know until its possibly too late.

now , i was talking to a friend at work about this article...which is a very good one i must say. he was telling me that his town has a lot of pitbulls too. he has 3 at 3 different houses on his block. he told me that the one across the street from him is always loose. even when it is chained it ends up breaking it and getting loose. it comes in his yard and goes around his dogs pen trying to get his dog which is in it. he said he called police about it running loose and coming over but they did nothing. another time this dog chased his wife and she barely got her last foot in the door before he wouldve gotten her. i told him to call the county cops and see what they can do. and anytime that the dog gets loose they send their 5 & 8 year old children to get it. i just thank god it wasnt one of his children because they wouldnt have gotten away. He says that there are a lot of "gangsta" wannabes in his town. that it is "gansta" to have a pitbull. is that stupid or what? if i got no response from county i would take it into my own hands....then what do you think would happen.....yeah..lol the cops would probably respond then , wouldnt they. just like they would respond AFTER an attack. and this goes back to my point and those of you who responsibly own these dogs...what i just wrote should prove both of us right in that I worry about how the owners care for them...and...YOU ALL talk of education. as you are right more education would prevent more attacks. but honestly you educated ones ARE THE MINORITY.

now speaking of attacks. yes i know all dogs attack. but not all dogs have the maiming ability. hmmmmmmm...lemme see....get attacked by pitbull or shi-tzu....hmmmmm tough one.....i think ill take my chances with a shi-tzu.

DaisyTattoo

06-28-2006, 2:23 PM

Tell your friend to call animal control, not the police. That's what animal control is for. They will either pick up the dog if it is loose, or if it isnt when they get there, they will give the owner a warning, then they will start writing tickets. After so many tickets, they take the animal away. Lots of dogs have the ability to kill someone. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Labradors, Shar-peis, Boxers, most hound breeds, most herding breeds, most working breeds. So it isn't just Pit bulls that can "mame" or kill someone. Just so happens that the "gangsa's" prefer them. Sucks for the dogs if ya ask me.

labont865

06-28-2006, 2:30 PM

I get what you mean about ability and all but it is a un-useable arguement. I personally have 8 years training in Muay Thai, 6 years in Jiu Jitsu, 3 years in Judo, 3 years in Wing Chun kung fu, and 1 year in Aikido. I had to be registered for my abilites and am on file with the RCMP as a "dangerous" weapon. Which means I am not supposed to fight unless it is in the ring in a registered fight, I can only passively defend myself outside the ring. Does this mean I should be banned simply because I have more ability to do damage or hurt somebody than most other people?
Should strong men be banned because IF they snap and go off on somebody chances are it would be very very bad?

You gotta look at these things when you say something like that. Like I said I understand what you mean, but you have to consider where I am coming from on this part.
Cows could easily kill a child as could horses but they are still at every petting zoo I have ever gone to.

Anywho, the real issue is owners, Though I am 100% against banning, I am 100% for licensing, I think having to be licesned to own any "large breed" or "aggressive" dog would be a great thing and would help out the situation tremendously. The main issue is that we all know the government is gonna charge out the arse for it. I mean it is good to make it failry pricey, that way it shows you have the financial ability to take care of this type of animal, but at the same time, it makes it hard for deserving people who may not be in the best financial situation to own the animal they really want, but this really is an acceptable sacrifice.

DaisyTattoo

06-28-2006, 2:37 PM

I am all for the pitties, I love them myself, have a dog that is half pit, but....I don't see how lisencing would be of any help. Most places require you to register your dogs with the county anyway. Plus most of the people that own the dogs that are aggressive and "attack" people, are people who wouldnt follow the rules anyway. I kind of see where you are coming from, but I don't see how this would help the problem in any way.

Dangerdoll

06-28-2006, 2:40 PM

Yeah, I'll agree with that. I do love the pitts too, they are beautiful dogs and in the right hands can be great family members. When in the wrong hands unfortunately, are the dogs who make the media. And for these wrong hands to register them... nah, why would they bother with that when most other things they do aren't by law either?

msouth468

06-28-2006, 2:47 PM

tankfan

06-28-2006, 3:08 PM

When in the wrong hands unfortunately, are the dogs who make the media.

thank you very much.

labont865 I get what you mean about ability and all but it is a un-useable arguement. I personally have 8 years training in Muay Thai, 6 years in Jiu Jitsu, 3 years in Judo, 3 years in Wing Chun kung fu, and 1 year in Aikido. I had to be registered for my abilites and am on file with the RCMP as a "dangerous" weapon. Which means I am not supposed to fight unless it is in the ring in a registered fight, I can only passively defend myself outside the ring. Does this mean I should be banned simply because I have more ability to do damage or hurt somebody than most other people?

no it doesnt. but you arent gonna run out and take offense to someone that is just walking by or standing in their own yard across from you doing nothing to provoke you and start chasing them with engagement the only thing on your mind.

and by the way ...WOW thats alot defense...congrats on your personal abilities youve learned.

Anywho, the real issue is owners, Though I am 100% against banning, I am 100% for licensing, I think having to be licesned to own any "large breed" or "aggressive" dog would be a great thing and would help out the situation tremendously.

thank you and i agree.

Lots of dogs have the ability to kill someone. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Labradors, Shar-peis, Boxers, most hound breeds, most herding breeds, most working breeds.

i understand that...just using pitbulls as that is what the topic is on.

Can you live with the fact you could have stopped a pitbull from ruining a families life? I did not think that when he left his yard he would do what he did.

something that hopefully never happens to you

polocrosseplyer

06-28-2006, 3:21 PM

[QUOTE=labont865]I get what you mean about ability and all but it is a un-useable arguement. I personally have 8 years training in Muay Thai, 6 years in Jiu Jitsu, 3 years in Judo, 3 years in Wing Chun kung fu, and 1 year in Aikido. I had to be registered for my abilites and am on file with the RCMP as a "dangerous" weapon. Which means I am not supposed to fight unless it is in the ring in a registered fight, I can only passively defend myself outside the ring. Does this mean I should be banned simply because I have more ability to do damage or hurt somebody than most other people?
Should strong men be banned because IF they snap and go off on somebody chances are it would be very very bad?

QUOTE]

what was it 'Con Air' that he got put in prison b/c he knew so much defense stuff and killed a guy?...you sound like my sister - she did a lot of those classes.

and sharpeis make look nice, but they are/can be used for fighting also, maybe not as much in the US like pitbulls etc, but they have been bred for it.

ok and how come my quotes dont looke like everyone elses?

DaisyTattoo

06-28-2006, 3:21 PM

Just something else I thought I would mention. Having grown up around dogs and having worked with them, I have been bitten several times by diffenent types of dogs, German Shepherd, Wolf Hybrid, Shar-Pei--2X. I was also bit once by a pit(although he was trying to play). And I can tell you, that all the bites felt the same. None were worse than the others, except for the 2nd shar pei bite, I got blood poisoning from that one. That hurts.

Dangerdoll

06-28-2006, 3:38 PM

ok and how come my quotes dont looke like everyone elses?
polo, when quoting like this above, hit the "quote button" and enter your text a couple returns down.

polocrosseplyer

06-28-2006, 4:38 PM

i did... oh well you guys get the point... i hope

nccoastal

06-28-2006, 5:45 PM

okay labont865 i know you are in love with your dogs and nothing i can do can convince you i know about them. but there is also nothing you can do to convince me they are in the same place as lassie. I will stop posting here about the same time you own these forums. When you post to topics or start them you need to come to the reality that someone might post something you don't like. Ow well try to live with it and lose no sleep over it. I am not losing no sleep here. no need to get steamed over it you blew your lid i did not. i am just posting my opinions about these dogs.
my opinion they are bad dogs
your opinion they are good dogs
when you go to adopt one why do they ask if you have children?

DaisyTattoo

06-28-2006, 5:56 PM

when you go to adopt one why do they ask if you have children?
At the shelter I worked at they asked that to all people that adopted any animal. Then they introduced the children and the animal, yes even pit bulls. Many pit bulls were placed with families that had children and they did very well. You can think whatever you like, but I belive you are being close minded. I had a GSD attack me and bite me in the face when I was young. Yet I own one myself today. Each dog has its own personality. I say, you can't blame a breed bc of the actions of a few. That would be the same as blaming every african american bc statistically they commit more crime, or being afraid of every muslim bc statistically they are more likely than others to be terrorists. It just isnt logical. Seriously.

Cheech

06-28-2006, 6:16 PM

labont865

06-28-2006, 7:10 PM

Nc- I didnt blow my lid at all. I think everybody else here can agree with me it was you who took it past the line and made it into something that it wasnt by posting rediculous, un-warranted and un-backed extremist remarks. I never told you to stop posting in these forums I said you should stop posting in this thread. Because you keep making yourself look bad and proving that you are not educated on the subject we are discussing. I dont think there is one person here that would say otherwise other than you.
Also as Jodi said they do that with all the dogs that you adopt, not just pit bulls. You have to remember most animals at shelter have been taken or are up for adoption for a reason, generally due to improper ownership, and need rehabilitation. So I would hope they would ask if you have kids. You should be careful with any dog in this situation no matter what species it is.

I think I everybody here would agree with me when I say that I have shown the utmost respect for everybodies opinions in this discussion, and have merely offered a counter statement to their posts when necessary. The problem I have with your opinion is that you have not shown anything for it to be based on. You have not shown any grounds for your accusations or any reasonable reason for your opinion. This is why I have not givin you any credit and continue to say you are obviously not educated on the subject or the breed. You pinion has no credibility in this discussion and this is why I asked you to leave the discussion. Instead you should not leave but actually do some reading about it, read some of the content on the links I provided earlier and then come back and give me some justifyable reasons why you have this opinion as everybody else has done.

Anyways I never meant it to be personal, but you just have no clue about this and until you do some real research to warrant what you are posting your opinion on the matter is null and void.

Anyways I apologize if I have personally offended you in any way, it was not my intent, but I have to retaliate when someone turns a decent discussion into an arguement for no good reason, especially with un-thought out un-backed extremist claims like you did.

Sorry again, I am trying to be as nice as I can be, but sometimes it is pretty hard to stay amikable.

EDIT: NC did you even read ANY of the links I posted? your comment about collies is perfect, read in this ladies article the part about Petey from little rascals. Actually here I will quote it:

"Did you know that the Little Rascals' Petey was an American Pit Bull Terrier? Would the parents of the Little Rascals let their children be in such close contact with a Pit Bull day after day if they feared that Petey could suddenly attack them without warning? Of course not. Petey was by far one of the most well trained and intelligent dogs. I urge you to rent some of the Little Rascals' episodes that feature Petey. Lassie, the Collie, bit her trainer several times. Petey never did such a thing. In fact, the only dog that has ever bitten me happened to be my sister-in-law's 9-year-old Collie. Now I thought "Lassie" was supposed to be a great family dog. Even though I was bitten by a Collie, I certainly would not advocate the breed being banned." -Sonnet Dashevskaya

labont865

06-28-2006, 7:15 PM

The only thing I don't understand was why that lady spent so much time and energy writing that very well thought out article to those unworthy sad excuse for an organization called Peta. . .. Those peta people really get to me.

but yeah, great article.

It was written because un-fortunately PETA still has alot of sway when it comes to things like this. This organization actually made itself look even worse by writting the article that this lady was responding to.

labont865

06-28-2006, 7:29 PM

Oh one MORE thing to add hahaha

To touch base on the whole licenseing thing. I mean that people should actually have to take a course to prove their ability to own one of these animals adn thus getting a licence to own. If they do not have a license and are in public or the dog is complained about the dog should immidiately be removed and taken to a shelter to be held for a certain amount of time giving the owner a chance to get it back if they can get the license, if they cant the dogs will be adopted out. It really wouldnt be that hard to do. It also gives some added limitations to backyard breeders. Now having to have the animals registered and the person being licensed, this will easily turn many bad owners away. There will always be issues with irresponsible owners, but why not take the steps to minimize it as much as possible?

lokel

06-28-2006, 11:28 PM

I agree with your licencing idea labont. I commend you on starting a topic that has such controversy.
I live in ontario and find the ban is unfortunate. Im not sure if the ban is going to work like the government hoped it would. There are many ppl that still have pits that arent fixed and they dont wear muzzles. It was written in my local paper that the local humane society would not be going door to door seeing if ppl with pits have followed the law, but they would only enforce the law, when someone complains/rats on a person with a pit that is not following the guidlines. Why have the ban at all then? :huh:

flyfly

06-29-2006, 12:55 AM

nice article labont, on point as always.

DansMarineTank

06-29-2006, 4:08 AM

Sorry again, I am trying to be as nice as I can be, but sometimes it is pretty hard to stay amikable.

Especially when your body is a dangerous weapon ;-)

DansMarineTank

06-29-2006, 4:10 AM

A bit off topic but if we are goining to make people take tests/ courses top prove they are able to keep a dog we should do the same for people having children.

msouth468

06-29-2006, 8:28 AM

Having children and owning a dog are two completly diffrent things. Everybody has the natural right to have and raise a child in anyway they see fit.

DansMarineTank

06-29-2006, 9:05 AM

People aparently have a natural right to bring a child into the world abandon it, beat it senseless, sexually abuse it.

But a dog... you should have a test... nonsense

msouth468

06-29-2006, 9:25 AM

People aparently have a natural right to bring a child into the world abandon it, beat it senseless, sexually abuse it.

But a dog... you should have a test... nonsense

I don't see where you're going with this. I don't agree with having to register a dog. But, raising a kid and owning a dog are two completely diffrent things that should not be compared.

DansMarineTank

06-29-2006, 10:07 AM

I am going to agree and say its off topic, but all i was saying is why afford dogs more protection than children, i am, however, all for making people prove they are capable of raising any dog as i am calling for them to prove they are capable of raising children.

DaisyTattoo

06-29-2006, 10:26 AM

The truth is, it is alot harder to take away a child then to take away a dog. Plus, part of the reason for the registration that labont is talking about is to not only protect the dogs, but also the general public from the dogs. People need to be educated on how to properly train their dogs so that they don't turn them into killing machines. A great idea would be to have the animal shelters hold monthy classes for all new adoptees or something like that. OR like our local no kill shelter is doing, having prison inmates train the dogs BEFORE they go to new homes. That is the best program ever, if you ask me. It teaches the inmates to respect another being and teaches the dogs good manners which help them find better homes. And stay in their homes. Tons of dogs get returned every year bc the new owners dont know how to deal with their problems, or to train them. It really is sad to see a dog come back to the shelter. It's sad for the dogs too. My dog lived at the no kill shelter for 3 months before I adopted her. I began working there about 4 years after her adoption and wanted to take her there to see my coworkers, she really really did not want to be there. She was afraid I was going to leave her there I think.

Dangerdoll

06-29-2006, 10:40 AM

hmmm...... I didn't see Labont losing his cool once, not sure why it was said that he was getting steamed over it. As a matter of fact, I thought he was being very good about explaining things. I also want to say, that is a good idea for the licensing, as long as the law was followed when someone was seen walking the dogs or something like that. It may help with the illegal fighting pits that some of the more unfortunate dogs are thrust into.

I tend to agree with Dan about the children too... hypotheticaly. It is a shame how some kids are raised in this time. It's ignorant to believe that no kids are abused or brought up by less than satisfactory means. For instance.... last night, I was watching Cops. A woman and her boyfriend and 2 young boys (1 and 3) were in a mustang. The two parents were fighting and the car wound up jumping the curb and resting upon a tree stump, disabling the car. The man was arrested for domestic violence, the woman had said he hit her 100 times, she hit him only 50. All the while, these boys are screaming. She was arrested for drunk driving, she was clearly intoxicated. The officers asked if she had someone to call to come and get the boys, maybe her parents to which she replied, "my parents are dead, are ya happy??". He asked again, is there anyone you can call and she said yes and after some words, gave the officer a phone number. The cop then called this person. However, that person said they could not pick up the kids. Off to the state system they went. And raising these kids in this way is fine as long as the parents deem it ok.... ok

The saying may be overused, but ..... and some very good people can't even have kids....

msouth468

06-29-2006, 12:35 PM

I just think having to prove that you can own a dog or raise a child is exerting too much control on the general public. For it even to work you have to have some sort of basic guidelines that will have to be followed. And that is where the snag is hit. There are so many different ways people raise their children or pets. Even in the basic care, some people feed their animals twice a day, some only once, some only every other day. Who has the right to decide which way is correct? Sure, there are exceptions to the rule as in the obvious people who are bad with pets or kids. Given the idea is good on paper, would it really work? Think of all the bad implications, there will be a lot of people who won't get to have a dog or a child because of the "red tape" involved. Because someone believes his or her way is better than another’s.

labont865

06-29-2006, 2:55 PM

I understand what you are saying Msouth. But its not laws on how you train the dog. You can train it in anyway you want but it has to be effective. For dogs such as pits there are tried and tested "Right" ways to train them and tried and tested "wrong" ways to train them. They arent like most other breeds when you train them. I personally will not sell my pups to first time pit bull owners unless they are somebody I know personally and have a good judgement of whether they will be good owners.
They can then train the dogs how ever they want. Its the final result that tells you whether they have done a good job. I personally visit if possible nearly every dog that comes out of my place every 3 months for the first year, then every 6 months for the second year, then every year from then on. At any time I deem the owner is doing an un-satisfactory job of training/maintaining the dog I will take it and find it a better suited home.
I dont care too much how they do it, but the dog must be well trained, obedient and non-aggressive. At the same time I also have ways to tell if the dogs are this way because they have been beaten or mis-treated and are only behaving because they are scared of their owners. I mean a little smack on the butt or a little smack under the chin is fine and is actually something I would tell any pit owner to not be afraid of doing, but anything more and it may start to affect the dog.

In no way do I necessarily think these laws should apply to every dog owner, but to owners that have had problem dogs in the past, or to owners who wish to own a "problem" or "aggressive" breed, they should have to be trained or have taken some kind of course to be able to own them.
The whole kid thing I am on the fence about. Some people just should not be allowed to have kids, the un-fortunate thing is that most of the time you dont find that out until its too late.

DaisyTattoo

06-29-2006, 3:04 PM

Fear is one thing you should NEVER show your dog. If you fear them, they will bite you. That is the #1 way to get bit. If your dog shows agression to you, you must stop it right away. My German Shepherd snarled at me once after I first got her and I smacked her right in the mouth(not hard enough to hurt her but hard enough to let her know who the boss was). She has never done it since and that was 6 years ago. She listens very well too.

Must4ng s4lly

06-29-2006, 5:09 PM

Don't even get me started on THIS topic again!!! :mad2:

Native American

06-29-2006, 7:17 PM

They sure seem to be handsome dogs. Everyone's been posting a lot of numbers. For me, the important ones are what the insurance actuaries use (the guys who calculate odds of a payout event, amount, premiums required to maintain underwriter solvency, etc.).

In the end, who says what about the raw numbers and percentages of dogs that commit a fatal attack don't matter as much as my insurance underwriter's bottom line: I find it fiscally difficult to rent to anybody with an AMPBT, Rottie, or GSD...either my coverage lapses or I have to pay such a high hazard premium that it carries over to the monthly rent...most renters can't afford the premium increase, and I won't increase everybody else's rent so that one person can have this type of dog breed. It can really turn into a bit of a miserable lose-lose situation for the breed owner and his pet, no matter how well-mannered the dog is.

Sadly, it is not illegal in the least for insurers to use breed as a discriminator, since for them it identifies risk. Risk management and use of risk-based discriminators is the core of their business.

It just gets confusing when mixed breeds are involved. Pretty much explains why breed-specific legislation doesn't work as well as intended.

Can't say much about them...I never see pits much at all anymore (maybe some people who own these breeds don't go out in public in anticipation of possible negative reaction from others?), and I only personally know of a few really negative encounters.

It seems the media really does play it up...I mean, a small dog disfiguring a child's face is nowhere near as "exciting" to the news media as an adult being rushed to the ER w/ multiple bites (and resulting blood) from a pit bull....but both situations are pretty dangerous on their own merits.

In the end, fear of liability lawsuits seems to be driving the latest unstoppable craze by cities (and people who've never owned them) to outlaw these animals. What's next? Weiner dogs?

v/r, N-A

nccoastal

06-29-2006, 8:45 PM

felons should not be allowed to own pitbulls.
and ppl who own pitbulls should take a class to own one. And they should sign a paper to agree that all their dogs be taken away if they get lose.
a class should cost a fee where the money goes to all the kids and ppl that have been attacked. Class should be long and boring to weed out the ones who want them for bad reasons.

labont dont get to much into the typing to me i lose interest after first sentence. skimming the end i saw something about little rascal dogs that is one mark for good. now please go on with some more. And respond with none of that blah blah you are uneducated in these dogs. How should i know a diffrence between your dogs and the ones i see on tv and read about in the paper.

ot and isnt PETA the number 1 killer of dogs. i think the website is petakillsanimals or petakillsdogs.com. round my parents house they were killing them in the van they picked them up in. PETA have many suspected ties to animal rights extremist or activist explain the diffrence in them to me again.

4 days to convince me of more good things b4 i leave again for 9 months.

labont865

06-29-2006, 10:32 PM

Nc- Well that shows alot of why you are the way you are. Somebody takes the time to try and explain things to you and you dont even have the respect or courtesy to read it. Do us all a favour and dont bother posting in this thread again and let the adults have an adult discussion. you are obviously a close minded person and there is no hope at all of even cracking you eyes open a little bit. So there is no point. But do us all a favour and not post in these threads especially if you are not willing to even read others opinions or the facts.

If you actually read this far into it, the way to know the difference is to give them a chance, try to get to know a few and you will learn that they are actually decent animals. Its simple as that.

But you are right about PETA

labont865

06-29-2006, 10:45 PM

UncaBret

06-30-2006, 10:05 AM

[QUOTE=nccoastal] 4 days to convince me of more good things [QUOTE]

But use short sentences.

msouth468

06-30-2006, 11:04 AM

4 days to convince me of more good things

But use short sentences.

Pitbulls are good.

They are safe.

They make good pets.

Your kids are not in danger.

Improper training and social interaction (I hope the words are not to big) are the main cause of attacks.

Pitbulls attack percentage compared to total dog attacks isn't high.

loaches r cool

06-30-2006, 1:10 PM

Pitbulls are good.

They are safe.

They make good pets.

Your kids are not in danger.

Improper training and social interaction (I hope the words are not to big) are the main cause of attacks.

Pitbulls attack percentage compared to total dog attacks isn't high.

I cant agree with these comments. Perhaps if it read...

If properly trained and raised are safe.

They make good pets also if trained and raised well.

Your kids are not in any danger from the well behaved pitbulls. But the not so well behaved ones could probably kill your kids.

Improper training and social interaction (I hope the words are not to big) are the main cause of attacks. - O.k., true

Pitbull attack percentage compared to total dog attacks isn't high, but a pit bull could kill a person, whereas my Jack Russel most likely couldnt, and if in that situation I could probably fend off or kill a Jack Russel myself, but not a Pit.

I am not trying to ban Pitbulls or any other dog. I will say there are breeds that are more dangerous than others, many different breeds included (not just Pitbulls).

I have been bit by a Pitbull that is the only reason I even noticed this thread. Although not life threatening, I was bit in a prety sensitive area and was very lucky. I used to work for the cable company, and was bit in a customers house. Sure you can blame it on the family for not raising it right. But what good does that do me? When I find myself with a dog how am I supposed to know how it was brought up? When I got bit I was in the customers kitchen talking to the person, with 2 other friends standing thier. The dog was at his feet sitting on the floor while we talked ofr probably 10 minutes. I never so much as looked at the dog before it decided all the sudden to lunge for me from 3 feet away. From that time forward I would not proceed into a house / yard with a dog without it being put up. Unfortunetly that meant I had to refuse to do a couple cable jobs since the owners would not comply. But safety comes first to me. I carried dog spray, but it didnt do me any good. Incase of a more severe attack, I started carrying a hammer. Whenever entering into yards that I wasnt sure if there is a dog, I would get the hammer out. If ever attacked, it would be the claw-end of the hammer into the head. Thankfully I never had any other incidents. Unfortunetely with a utility company, you often find youself in less than ideal conditions.

Also the comment about dogs sensing fear is true but meaningless. You cant expect a kid to know this or even be able 'not to show fear' when surprised by Rot'. What about my 92 yr old grandmother?

Just because an animal can be pacified with special attention and raising doesnt mean it or all of the breed can be considered safe or non-agressive. Just because I might have raised a coyote-wolf hybrid properly and it might be the nicest dog in the world, I would never consider it 100% safe nor the breed for sure.

tankfan

06-30-2006, 1:39 PM

I cant agree with these comments. Perhaps if it read...

If properly trained and raised are safe. Yeah...IF
They make good pets also if trained and raised well....IF
Your kids are not in any danger from the well behaved pitbulls. But the not so well behaved ones could probably kill your kids. As this is the cause of worry
Pitbull attack percentage compared to total dog attacks isn't high, but a pit bull could kill a person, whereas my Jack Russel most likely couldnt, and if in that situation I could probably fend off or kill a Jack Russel myself, but not a Pit. Bring on the shi-tzu!..lol
But safety comes first to me. AS for all of us.
Also the comment about dogs sensing fear is true but meaningless. You cant expect a kid to know this exactly, as we can educate our kids about this....but seriuosly, if a pit was coming at them even with this knowledge, their instinct is too run and be afraid. ive always told my children to try not to run because of the instincts of chasing.

this has to be the most well thought out response in this thread. put very simply, politely and beautifully said. great reply loaches. as thats what most of us who have children do worry about.

nccoastal

06-30-2006, 2:44 PM

well at least you can agree with me on 2 things peta kills dogs daily.

after you view this pic you might cuss me but look at this dangerous pitbull trying to get my son.

Rowangel

06-30-2006, 2:53 PM

after you view this pic you might cuss me but look at this dangerous pitbull trying to get my son.
:confused: are you saying you own a pitbull? Or are you making a joke?

nccoastal

06-30-2006, 2:53 PM

just messin with you.
pitbull owner for 5 years

and that is me and my son in the picture.
had to cut the picture it said the first time it was too big so i cut it and went down on quality.

and yes i was joking was just playing a part of ignorant.
anyone that wants to buy a pitbull dont. there are to many on death row right now and you come out cheaper.

Dangerdoll

06-30-2006, 2:57 PM

<----ok, officially confused...

nice looking dog, nc

Rowangel

06-30-2006, 2:59 PM

and yes i was joking was just playing a part of ignorant.Ummm, haha...so funny...

DaisyTattoo

06-30-2006, 3:00 PM

Whew, when I first realized who posted the pic and looked at the pic, I thought maybe the dog was dead and they were holding it up like a trophy. Glad to know that its okay lol. You had me going for sure.

polocrosseplyer

06-30-2006, 4:58 PM

NC you must get really bored...

nccoastal

06-30-2006, 5:05 PM

well had to long weeks of work and stuff b4 the few days off b4 they box me and ship me overseas. just wanted to bs with some ppl.

labont865

06-30-2006, 5:31 PM

WOW dude, if you were in the same room as me ight now I would probably have to hit you.

Remember my troll comment earlier. haha

nccoastal

06-30-2006, 8:22 PM

lol

maybe when i get bored again i can type buddy and blitz's whole story.

polocrosseplyer

06-30-2006, 8:59 PM

ship you off again?? military?

Native American

07-01-2006, 2:02 AM

N.A.- You are right, unfortunately the discrimination has spread there as well. The main reasoning is because of the abilities of the dogs, not so much for the number of attacks. They did the same thing with dobbies and a few other species back in the day too, yet now alot of these sepcies are perfectly fine to have and insurance doesnt care. Its crap.
A lot of the breeds have "improved" over the years in response to this type of pressure. Sadly, to gain this result, some foreign breeders (who produce for the U.S. market) started ruthless culling of any dobie or (insert breed type that is focus of hysteria du jour) type dog that exhibited the least aggressive behavior as a young pup. It's one reason why Rotties of Norwegian bloodline are prized for their much more even temperament.

To the insurance underwriter, the dog's capability to achieve a level of damage is key. Pits may have numerically fewer total attacks (just the raw number; not incident per unit number of animals per annum), but the result of each attack is almost always more gruesome than with other breeds, and usually yields an astronomically higher lawsuit payout. As noted by others on this forum, that is fodder for journalists and, in the event of a fatality, easy game for a 2nd degree u/i murder conviction against the owner (the first one of note was the "Rottweiler murder trial" in Delaware, and this type of legal action has gained steam across the U.S.A. like a runaway locomotive...as I said before, what's next in court? Dachshunds?).

A co-worker of mine raised pit bulls for a few years when he grew up on a farm. He did not immediately cull young aggressive pits (he didn't even think of this as an option), but separated the more aggressive pups in a brood and tried different training regimens. None of these were successful, and nobody with an ideal home for these dogs wanted them (a real Catch-22...these more aggresive AMPBT dogs needed a good home, but these same potential owners didn't want the aggressive ones from a litter). In his case, these dogs would attack and disfigure or kill other farm animals like goats and even larger livestock. He ended up having to put down about 16 of his pits before he left home for college and had to stop breeding them. The last pit he put down (before getting out of the breeding business entirely) simply ambled over to a grazing cow, lunged for and clamped onto its throat, and brought it down for keeps. It was totally unexpected; the dog was more aggressive than its littermates, but he never could have predicted that particular time bomb blowing up like that (exactly the type of incident insurers forcus on). Still, over the span of a few years he produced a small number of pretty good dogs.

v/r, N-A