Need Serious Help (sorry - long)

Squealor

AC Members
Jun 30, 2005
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Boston, MA
Ok, I need some serious help with my plants. It’s now at the point where we are going to rip them all out and buying plastic ones unless I can figure out what is going wrong.
The tank is a 46 gallon which has been set up for almost exactly one year (see fish list in signature). It is not in direct sunlight; however the room gets some sunlight. We have a CF light with 110 watts. We fertilize with the entire Flourish line on their recommended daily schedule. And we have two Hagen Plant Gro CO2 Natural Systems. The CO2 systems were originally a concern that they would not product enough CO2 for our tank, so we got two. The problem is that we often have to replace the sugar, water, yeast, etc. It doesn’t seem to last long at all, nor does it produce many bubbles.
We did have some Watersprite in the tank; however, it was growing so fast and overtaking everything else. We heard that they can eat up lots of nutrients and figured maybe that was why the rest of the plants were all dying, so we pulled it out. The other plants kept dying. Hearing that possibly having a more heavily planted tank might help, we recently bought a ton of plants from AZGardens.com. The plants were absolutely beautiful! We planted them and enjoyed for a few weeks, until we watched them one by one completely disintegrate. The only plants that seem to be surviving are Wisteria, Algae Balls, some Java moss, Moneywort (although it’s not looking that good), and an Anubias (which is a home to some algae). The Corkscrew Vals did the worst… disintegrating in mere days. We get some algae, but not too much.
Our pH is at a constant 7.0 due to treating the water (Jungle Labs pH Stable 7.0 Liquid) before water changes (our tap water is a very high pH and our tank water is at 7.0 due to driftwood, so we need to treat or we kill some fish). Our Kh was 60 and Gh was 80. The only test that seems off kilter is the phosphates, which is always through the roof (literally as high as the test goes no matter when we test or how much water we change). The only other things that might have any effect are we occasionally treat with Pimafix and Melafix if fish look stressed or after a water change and we use Prime to treat tap water.
Any suggestions as to what I’m doing wrong? I’m leaning towards it being the CO2, but I’m not sure. I’m willing to set up a pressurized CO2 system if people think it will make a difference!
 
what are the other plants that aren't doing well besides the vals? perhaps they aren't getting enough light? 110 watts gives you just over 2wpg, and it's possible plants that like bright light aren't getting enough... just a thought ;)

good luck!
 
Squealor said:
We fertilize with the entire Flourish line on their recommended daily schedule.

Does that include Excel or no ?
 
You are only getting approx. 10ppm/CO2. That's part of the problem.
You need to get the CO2 ppm up to 20 - 25 and lose the Jungle PH Stable. In fact all chemical additives (Pimafix and Melafix) will end up be counter productive. I suggest discontinuing them all.
What kind of filtration are you using? If it causes surface disturbance, that could be a factor in your low CO2 ppm. How are you injecting the gas into the tank? The more efficient the dispersal system (small bubbles), the better the absorption into the water table. Pressurized CO2 with a good system for injection would make a world of difference, yes.
You have good kH and gH....no problem there. What's the pH, kH, and P (phosphates) out of the tap? Take a sample of your tap water and let it sit for a minimum of 2 - 3 hours. Then test for pH,kH, P and N (nitrates), and post back here with the results. It would be a good idea to test the tank for the same elements as well to give us a better idea of what you're dealing with out of tap and in the tank.
Sounds to me like your plants are hungry for something. At this point I don't know what. You don't talk too much about algae, so it doesn't sound like an imbalance is present......more like a lack of something.
Pick up some Epsom Salts at the pharmacy. This will add some Mg (magnesium) to your water which will aid in the uptake of some of the other elements. Dose it at the rate of 2 tsps. in a glass of water and dump it into the tank or if you have a HOB filter you can just drop the 2 tsps. into that.
For a 46 gal. tank you'd be better off with individual dosing of macros rather than the Flourish line. You can buy them very cheaply here: www.gregwatson.com/
What type substrate is in the tank?
Get back, when you can, with the results of your testing and we can go from there.

Len
 
We've lost quite a few plants: ludwigia and foxtail seemed to lose all their leaves until they were just stalks; rotala and sword seemed to disintegrate (like anacharis and vals). I'll think of some more but those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head. We've seriously gone through dozens of plants.
We do use Excel in the fertilizing schedule.
My only concern about losing the pH stable is that when we didn't use it, we'd lose some cories after a water change... the only reason we could find is that the pH of the tap we were adding was a shock b/c it was high. Since adding the pH, we've had no casualties. How do I get around that?
Our filter is a emperor 400 HOB. Sometimes, water evaporates and the surface can get aggitated, but not often. I honestly think that our CO2 systems are not built for a tank this big. And we've been having problems ordering the refills and having them be expired when they arrive (which would explain the lack of bubbles). The bubbles go through a ladder.
The substrate is just gravel, which might also have something to do with it, but that's too late to fix, now, right?
I'm going to do all the levels when I get home tonight (tap and tank) and I'll let you know what I get!
 
Ok, here goes:

tank:
pH: 7.0
kh: 50
phosphates: 5.0+ (turned this color immediately without waiting the two minutes)
Nitrates: 10 (possibly between 10 and 20, hard to tell)

Tap:
pH: 8.4
kh: 30
phosphates: 1.0
Nitrates: 5

Hope that helps!
 
There is only one chemical sans fertilizer that belongs in your tank, and that is conditioner for chlorinated water. Medications as profalaxis are a waste of money, and cause more harm than good. A pH of 8.4 out of the tap is nothing to write home about, mine is 8.2. Don't do huge water changes and that should not be an issue, just go slow about dropping the buffer. Your phosphates are high because of the buffer, which very well may be one of the problems with keeping plants alive. Trying to achieve perfect numbers ends up being counterproductive in the end. Work with what you have.
 
Squealor said:
Ok, here goes:

tank:
pH: 7.0
kh: 50
phosphates: 5.0+ (turned this color immediately without waiting the two minutes)
Nitrates: 10 (possibly between 10 and 20, hard to tell)

Tap:
pH: 8.4
kh: 30
phosphates: 1.0
Nitrates: 5

Hope that helps!
As Goatman says above, 8.4 is something that all of your fish and plants can adapt to and once you get the CO2 ppm up, your pH will drop well into the 7.0°pH area.
Your phosphates are a result of the chemicals you are adding into the tank and should be stopped. While you are working on the CO2 increase, I'd suggest the same as above, that you do smaller water changes and maybe two a week.
You should consider pressurized CO2 injection for your tank for the long term.
For the short term here's something you can do to cut down on your water's surface agitation. Keep the water level as high as you can, and cut a piece of filter foam the width of the return flow ramp on your filter, put a slit in one side and fit it over the lip of the return. Slide the slitted side over the lip.
This will muffle the water coming back into the tank and should make a dramatic difference on the surface, saving a lot of gassing off.
My tap water comes out at 7.6°pH and I maintain 6.4°pH in all my tanks. I do 50% water changes weekly and the fish swim (including corys) right into the flow of the fresh water as I change it off, with no ill affects. I doubt that that's the issue with your losing fish.
Exactly what and what quantities are you dosing for you N,P & K and also traces, and how often do you dose each? Flourish products can/will get expensive for a tank your size, over time.

Len
 
Gagaliya, he said that he doses excel, and we have already posted twice about the bad juju that comes with phosphate pH bufferse. A two line post really doesn't accomplish anything...
 
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