need some advice re: cichlid

[biogal76]

A coworker of mine inheritied a cichlid -lovingly called Rocky for his rock moving behavior- from another coworker when she left the job (the fish and tank is at the office). He's orange, we think he might be a midas, but no one really knows for sure. He's been at the office for 7 yrs, but we don't know total age. Anyway, what size tank should he be in? He's currently housed in a 55gal, but it seems small to me for him. (he's alone - b/c he is very aggressive - he used to have a tank mate when they were smaller, but that one had to be removed, and someone else currently has that fish in the office)
Anyway, Rocky is having problems with Ich, we tried treating it with the meds, but it keeps coming back. We are going to try raising the heat on him next week to see if we can get rid of it. I read about the salt-treatment on the ich article...do people do this with cichlids too? I've never had ich not go away with meds, so I'm nervous about the salt, if anything happened to Rocky, we'd all be very upset. I know next to nothing about cichlids, though I've had success with several tropical tanks over the years. Anyway, my coworker is also concerned about him...we don't want to lose him! Is salt a good option? Will he be ok?
Does us not being there on the weekends have anything to do with not being able to effectivly treat the ich with meds, b/c sometimes we have to go longer than the recommended days due to weekends.
Anyway, thanks for the help, we love this fish, and he has wonderful personality! :-)

[reptileguy2727]

sounds like a midas or red devil, the two are frequently sold as the same so it really doesnt matter which he truly is unless you are breeding. how long is the fish? a 55 should be okay, but a 75 would be better, and biggger is always better. how often does his water get changed? any tank should get at least 50% at least weekly. i would just use quick cure for ick and raise the temp. i usually keep the temp at about 82 for my big cichlid. there is something stressing the fish or else he wouldnt be susceptible to ick. so you also have to figure out what is stressing him in the first place and fix that too or else it will keep stressing him and he will keep getting ick. check the nitrates, pH, temp, etc to see if any of those arent right.

[plah831]

I've read about Rocky in your posts. He sounds like a nice guy and I would really hate to see anything happen to him, as well. Any fish that lets you pet him is pretty cool in my book, I have 2 that do that too.

Yes, the salt method is the best way to go. FW fish can stand salt TEMPORARILY up to about 6 ppt, specific gravity of 1.004, because it's about the salinity of their tissues. Any higher than that, and you risk messing up their osmoregulatory (water-salt balance) function. But for the ich treatment, you will remain far below that limit. I'm guessing you've read the article we have here on how to do that treatment.

He should be fine for the weekend, especially without chemical medications. In my opinion, those do a lot worse for the fish because they compromise water quality. In other words, you would stand a lot higher chance of losing him due to ammonia or nitrite poisoning over the weekend because the chemicals might kill your nitrifying bacteria population.

While salt may do that to some degree as well, I believe the risk is lower. I may be wrong about that, so I'd like to see if anyone has any experience with that one. I myself have only treated for ich twice, when I was new to the hobby (both times hadn't cycled correctly). I used Rid-Ich (malachite green solution) which killed more than a few fish. I believe it said on the bottle NOT to do any water changes during treatment, because it would remove medications, or at least that's what the sales guy at the store told me. Needless to say, it was bad advice.

Whenever treating for any condition, it's always best to monitor ammonia and nitrite levels and be prepared to do water changes at any moment. The tank Rocky is in is hopefully mature and cycled, though. How long has it been set up, or has he been in "solitary"? Naughty fish.

[Rbishop]

RG2727 noted, it would be great to hear about your maintenance routine in detail and your water parameters. Any chance of OTS?

Without the introduction of new fish/plants to this long established tank, it would be nice to locate the stress. I think the salt would be less of an issue than the meds available.

Anybody familiar with lifespan on a Midas/Red devil?

[Rdavis]

We just had a go round with ich ourselves and lost all but one fish. We were on vacation when it happened and were not here to treat fast enough. From everything I have read ich has to be introduced into the tank from somewhere else. In our case it was a replacement Pleco, brought home two weeks before our trip from a LFS.

If Rocky has been alone for 7 years I am not sure that Ich can be the problem. I don't have a link to all the numerous cites I read about the ich life cycle, but they all said it does not have a dormant phase, and must be brought in from the outside. Thus all the recomendations for qurantine tanks.

Just a thought before you start a long and drawn out process of adding salt and the like.

[tonytheboss1]

:cool: So sorry "ROCKY" :sick: . Hard to tell w/out pictures but I agree w/ plah831. I generally try to steer clear of chem. treatments unless there's no other alternative. Start w/ a W/C of about 40/50%. Try the salt while SLOWLY raising the temp. to 82 degrees & maintain for a few days. Monitor for improvement or possible signs of stress. Since he/she is the sole occupant of the tank, we can rule out introduction of the 'ich' from an outside source & focus on poor water quality as the probable culprit.(just a guess, not a judgement) If this is indeed a 7yr. old Midas or Red Devil, you've got a fairly large, aggressive, territorial, South American eating machine.(avg. size 25/30cm). That being said, a little more room (75gl) and increased filtration (don't know what u have) along w/ a dedicated W/C schedule could only be a good thing. Hopefully "ROCKY" will be :dance2: OK. As always, aside from the facts, this is JMHO. Good Luck

[tonytheboss1]

:cool: BTW I almost forgot, increase the oxygenation of the water (higher water temps. = less oxygen in the water. You don't want to deprive "ROCKY" of needed oxygen in a weakened state. Lowering the water level a bit if you have an HOB or adding an air stone, spraybar above the surface or P/H directed toward the surface would be helpful. Good Luck

[biogal76]

Yeah, he lets us pet him, begs for food and makes a lot of splashing and noise when new people come in the office. He's too cute. I guess I could take my camera to work and try to snap a picture of him, but he looks just like the pics of midas/red devils I've seen. He's got a big hump on his head too, if that helps.

well, I thought it was ich, b/c it looks like it, but I suppose it could be something else. It seems to go away for about a week or so after the med treatment, then comes back. I was wondering about stress myself, but don't know what could be stressing him out. He doesn't really have a lot of cover, he's so big that his current owner took out some of his big rocks so he had more room to swim. He's been alone in the tank for about 2 yrs I'm sure...I'll ask. I hear of them giving him bait fish in the past, but they haven't done that since I've been there. We've been talking about going in together and getting him a bigger tank...maybe I should push for that more.

Anyway, he has a HOB the Aquaclear, with the sponge and ammonia filter (? - coworker calls it this, I've not been involved with his filtering) until I started working in this section in January, he got his water changed about once a month (25%), but I've taken him to 25% a week, more frequently when he is getting treated with ich meds. He also has UGF. His tank is kept at 75-76 degrees, so he should be up around 80 normally? So then I need to very very gradually raise his temp to that and then work on raising it to kill the fungus/parasite whatever?

I've not taken water chem samples, but I can take my kit to work tomorrow and check and post the numbers. He seems fine, other than the stuff on his fins -previously called ich but could be something else- when I first saw it, there was a lot on his right pectoral fin, and it was almost like he was favoring that fin, and he was scratching his belly on the rocks. We treated him with rid-ich like the bottle said, I believe it was treat one day, water change the next skip a day repeat for 3 times. It went away and came back in a week or so, and we did another round. It was gone for awhile...maybe a week or two..and I noticed it on his fins again, just a little bit.

[plah831]

just to clarify: you said he is 7 years old, at least, but that he recently got moved to that tank because of aggression ,right? is it a newer tank, then?

[biogal76]

just to clarify: you said he is 7 years old, at least, but that he recently got moved to that tank because of aggression ,right? is it a newer tank, then?

No, he's always been in this tank...his tankmate was moved out about 2 yrs ago.

[plah831]

oh, OK. Hmm, if there have been no new fish or plants introduced, it might not be ich as some folks have already stated. couldn't tell you what it is, though. sorry.

[reptileguy2727]

is the same equiptment used for both tanks? any live food or new additions to the other tank recently? my big jaguar cichlid just has a big 6" PVC pipe T-connector. this is a great hide for him and takes up relatively little space. i would take out everything except the gravel and a 6" PVC pipe T-connector. i dont like aquaclears, rarely hear much good about them. i prefer fluvals and for HOBs whispers. undergravels almost dont count, especially in cichlid tanks where they can be more harm than good. i use quick cure all the time (sort of, not at home anymore, but at work) without any big issues with it at all. i dont think its as bad as some of you have come to think of it.

[biogal76]

is the same equiptment used for both tanks? any live food or new additions to the other tank recently? my big jaguar cichlid just has a big 6" PVC pipe T-connector. this is a great hide for him and takes up relatively little space. i would take out everything except the gravel and a 6" PVC pipe T-connector. i dont like aquaclears, rarely hear much good about them. i prefer fluvals and for HOBs whispers. undergravels almost dont count, especially in cichlid tanks where they can be more harm than good. i use quick cure all the time (sort of, not at home anymore, but at work) without any big issues with it at all. i dont think its as bad as some of you have come to think of it.

Nope, the tanks are not connected in anyway. the PVC pipe thing is a good idea. Rockys HOB is kinda old, we were discussing replacing that as well, but hadn't decided on upgrading the tank to 75g yet. UGF can cause more harm? how so? I know it gets NASTY down there quick...

[reptileguy2727]

i didnt mean the filtration hooking the two tanks together, i meant is any of the supplies used on both tanks, net,s water changing equiptment, etc. if any of it is than it is possible that if it was introduced to the other tank it could have been transferred to rocky's. my 15" jaguar cichlid is in a 75. he has gravel, the 6" PVC pipe T-connector, 250 watt stealth heater, 2 whisper 60s, and a fluval 405. it is better to have way too much filtration (which is really impossible) than too little. as far as the gravel goes the book i read that said it can do more harm than good didnt explain it at all. cichlids are notorious diggers and with an UGF if they expose or even get close to the grate, the water takes the path of least resistance, which makes the entire UGF ineffective. so if you do go to a 75 dont waste your money on UGF, spend it on other filtration. UGF arent worth their cost in a community tank anyways in my experience. you cant clean below the grate unless you break down the entire tank, which you shouldnt do. honestly if i were setting up a 75 for a red devil i would do it exactly like i did for my jaguar cichlid, including the filtration and water change schedule.

[biogal76]

ohhhh....duh. Yeah, no none of the supplies are mixed, Rocky has his own stuff. That makes sense about the UGF...he is certainly an earth mover. And he likes to uncover the little lids that block the holes where you could put additional filtration...and take them off and play with them. I will relay this info to my coworkers so we can decide something together. Thanks again, and I will post water parms tomorrow if I can get on this site at work, if not when I get home.

[tonytheboss1]

:cool: If your "ROCKY" resembles this you've probably got a 'midas' or possibly a hybrid of the species.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5877/imageslb9.jpg

Good idea on checking the water parameters, till you figure out exactly whats going on, a 40/50% W/C can't hurt. Good Luck

[biogal76]

:cool: If your "ROCKY" resembles this you've probably got a 'midas' or possibly a hybrid of the species.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5877/imageslb9.jpg

Good idea on checking the water parameters, till you figure out exactly whats going on, a 40/50% W/C can't hurt. Good Luck

That looks like Rocky to me. :-) I'm going to do a big water change today, testing the parms before and then later this afternoon. I'm also going to sloooowly start raising his temp today too, probably take most of the week to get it to his temp, and then worry about raising it for the fungus/ich whatever we have. :-)

[biogal76]

water params this morning:

temp: 75
ph: 6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20-40, the color is between the two on the card

He doesn't appear to have any ich spots today, his fins look good, he's acting normal as well. We did get him a heater and turned it on today, only to raise the temp to about 77 today, and slowly work our way up to cichlid temp.

I've been talking to the coworkers, and we are going to try to find him a 75g tank. We all think tank size may be whats stressing him out. We are also going to pool money to buy a freshwater test kit for here instead of me bringing mine everyday.

To set up a new tank for him, should we were talking about going a head and adding another HOB on this one with sponges and filter media to get some bactieria growing, then transfering that to the new tank..we want to fishless cycle it. So then do we just add fish food to the tank everyday? or can we add some of Rocky's current tank water to the new tank when we change water? or both? I was going to put some of his substrate in the new tank as well...how long does it take a seeded tank to cycle? we have to keep adding waste though correct? to keep the bacteria? Will old tank water do or do we need ammonia as well or just food? Thanks!

[ChileRelleno]

My usual response to HITH/HLLE...

HITH/HLLE Treatment(s)

(1)Water Quality
Get your water quality/chemistry perfect, NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3- 0/20ppm,
check your filters & clean'em if necessary (reduces alot of NO3), gravel vac & PWC, do small PWC's (25%) every other day.
Just about everyone will agree that bad water chemistry and HITH go together like apple pie -n- ice cream...

(2)Diet
Feed a well balanced and varied diet* (See below).

(3)Vitamin Supplements
Add liquid vitamin supplements to all food and vary their diet.
Soak or load everything you feed the fish with vitamins until cured and watch your water.
Vitamins that you add to your tanks water are worthless (IMO).
We use "Vita Chem", our fish get it regularly.
This particular brand is available at most on-line retailers and at better LFS's (We get ours at BigAls).
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=27489;category_id=3781;pcid 1=2911;pcid2=

(4)Supplementary treatment(s)
I would add a dose of salt to the tank, this helps lower stress, encourages slime-coat production and gill function amongst other things.
Also a dose of Melafix and Pimafix, these have been known to help healing.

(5)Medicate
Alot of folks blame Hexamita for HITH and thus treat for it with medications, BUT, studies have been done showing that Hex (and others) is/are a secondary infection/s (Whether or not Hexamita plays a key-role with HITH infections is controversial).
You need to do what "You" feel is right and correct after researching this for yourself, google "HITH causes prevention and cure" or some such, and visit Cichlid specific forums for more info.

Some folks also think that filter carbon dust plays a role...
Carbons role is controversial.

Some folks also think that stray electrical currents are to blame...
Stray electrical currents role is controversial at best.

It seems there are no absolutes as to the cause, but just like ICH there are many ways to treat it and proponenets/opponents of each treatment.

I say again though...
Perfect water quality and a varied nutritious diet supplemented with vitamins.

Here's a good article on HITH available here at Oscarfish,
http://www.oscarfish.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=3
For more simply Google, 'HITH' or 'HLLE'.

DIET
A quality cichlid pellet or stick should make up 75-80% of your O's diet.
These are my primary foods...
Pellets, Carnivore sticks, freezedried krill, algae wafers, fresh nightcrawlers, fresh/freezedried earthworm (Any worms are great foods!), fresh crickets, fresh mealworms, almost any insect I catch (Insects from outside do pose a risk of insecticides which can harm your fish, be careful.).
I feed or have fed my O all of these foods...
Raw/cooked shrimp, small bits of raw cut fish, beefheart, bitesize bits of fruits-n-veggies (zucchini, carrot, shelled peas, shelled corn, apple, orange, pear, papya and etc...), small tree/grass frogs (NO toads, and know which frog species your feeding as some can be toxic too.) and properly quarantined or raised feeder fish, these should be fed sparingly and rotated as snacks or dessert.
Do not feed unquarantined feeder fish from LFS/LPS, do not feed mammalian flesh (Animal fats from mammals and fowl are very bad for most fish).
I supplement his nutrition by soaking his pellets 4-5 times a week in a liquid vitamin.
I use Vita-Chem, available at some LFS's and on-line retailers, I get mine at BigAl's, http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=27487;category_id=3781;pcid 1=2911;pcid2=
Alot of different types and brands are used, Liquid Centrum for example, but you could reasonably use any quality L. vitamin.

[ChileRelleno]

water params this morning:

temp: 75
ph: 6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20-40, the color is between the two on the card

He doesn't appear to have any ich spots today, his fins look good, he's acting normal as well. We did get him a heater and turned it on today, only to raise the temp to about 77 today, and slowly work our way up to cichlid temp.

I've been talking to the coworkers, and we are going to try to find him a 75g tank. We all think tank size may be whats stressing him out. We are also going to pool money to buy a freshwater test kit for here instead of me bringing mine everyday.

To set up a new tank for him, should we were talking about going a head and adding another HOB on this one with sponges and filter media to get some bactieria growing, then transfering that to the new tank..we want to fishless cycle it. So then do we just add fish food to the tank everyday? or can we add some of Rocky's current tank water to the new tank when we change water? or both? I was going to put some of his substrate in the new tank as well...how long does it take a seeded tank to cycle? we have to keep adding waste though correct? to keep the bacteria? Will old tank water do or do we need ammonia as well or just food? Thanks!If you use plenty of established substrate/filter medias or a a fully matured filter then you will not need to 'Fishless Cycle'.
I would ideally suggest a appropriately sized filter be matured beforehand, and transferring both the filters, and the transplanting of a significant amount (if not all) of established substrate.
If it easy enough you can add half or more of the water to the new tank as it will have the NH3(ammonia) in it to maintain the beneficial bacteria.
There is very very little beneficial bacteria in tank water, the only reason I suggest possibly transferring water is to provide food for the bacteria and prevent a possible mini cycle due to lack of sufficient NH3(ammonia) to maintain bacteria colonies at their normal levels until the fish produces enough to maintain.

1) As much established substrate and filter bio media as possible.

2) Add extra bio media to the current filters to mature and be ready for instant cycling of the new.

3) Mature the new filter on the old tank before setup.

[reptileguy2727]

when i stepped up my jag from a 55 to a 75 i just tool his gravel, water, and filters with him and there was absolutely no cloudiness from the tank re-cycling. so just move over the filters that are on there and it will be fine.

[biogal76]

oh ok, so if we just move as much of his water, and substrate as possible, he should be good. We were already planning on adding the new filter material to the old tank, so at least we had that part right. :-)
Thanks for the help!

We found a tank yesterday for free, somebody's family member had one they just broke down and were going to sell, (the tank, stand, 2 HOB filters and an UGF (which we dont need)) but they willing to donate to Rocky, as long as we come pick it up. Looks like in a couple of weeks we will have it to clean up and check for leaks...so he should be in a new home soon!