Bioload with BioSpira??

[Cearbhaill]

Longtime lurker/searcher- first time poster.

After having spent the past couple of months learning about how aquarium products have changed since my last experience (1973!! I come from a "fish shop" family) I finally settled on what to buy in the way of filters, etc. I must say that things have changed quite a bit since the old days.
Be that as it may...

I am intrigued by the latest reports on Bio Spira.
As I truly cannot make up my mind between fishy and fishless cycling I have decided to take the BioSpira plunge. My LFS carries it, the product itself is dated within the 3 month window and they swear it has never been unrefrigerated. Beyond that they are no help.
I notice in the many threads I've gone through that adding sufficient quantities of fish is necesary to take full advantage of the BioSpira bacteria. Makes sense.

I want to add enough fish, yet don't want to add too many- might anyone offer a suggestion as to a rough number? Ballpark it- I won't hold you to it- just a rough idea.

I have posted my species list and tank specs- linked in my sig. Mainly tetras/rasboras- a 90g South American community tank.
I feel I need to hold off on any Cories, Rams, Cats, or Cardinals until the tank matures a bit... right?
How many White Clouds, Hatchetfish, Harlequins?

I was working with a rough number of 10 per species- sound ok?
Cories ok now?
If so, we're up to 40 fish. At say $2.50 average per fish- I'm betting $100 that BioSpira will work.

Don't misunderstand- I don't mind buying all of them at once, but just feel prudence knocking at my brain saying "be careful!" while BioSpira counters with "full bioload now!".

Water is sitting at 79.8ºF (I'm in South Florida- it won't be getting any cooler) pH out of the tap is 7.8 (thought it'd be way higher!)
I have 3 bogwoods in the tank and peat in my filter.

Let me add that I have been frequenting these boards for weeks now, and it has been an awesome support system. Thanks to all who take the time to read and offer an opinion.

I'm having a ball just watching the water bubble- I hope I can stand the excitement of real fish!

[wetmanNY]

Don't put the whole fishload in at once. Just add one of your schools of tetras. Wait and test. Easy does it.

Bio-Spira sounds like a great innovation. Keep us posted.

[superstein61]

Well, I am gonna disagree with Wetman a bit. From the threads I have read, you should add your full bio-load for Bio-Spira to be most effective.

However, I too would be cautious betting over 40 fish that it really works.

But I think adding just one school of tetra - or 10 fishes per your post in that size tank would be enough. At a minimum, I would add at least 20 to 30 fish (since you are talking Tetras/rasboras) in a 90 gallon tank.

Then after your tank settles in, I would slowly addt the other fish in groups of no more than 10 (assuming you started out with 30)

[Cearbhaill]

Despite everyones advice to the contrary, I cavalierly added too many fish. As others have noted the BioSpira apparently takes care of the first stage bacteria really well- one week in and I have yet to get an ammonia reading.

Wish I could say the same about the nitrites.
I am getting nitrite readings of .50-1.0 daily, now one week into it. I am changing 20% of the water every 12 hours. I have no (apparent) fish distress or losses, so feel that will stabalize in time as my cycling continues.

My follow up question is about my water changing.
I have the very alkaline, very soft water that wetman speaks about on his site... 24 hours out of tap I get a pH of 8.4 (or as high as my kit registers) and a KH of 1.
With the frequency of my water changes I have had to make do with baking soda and Seachem Acid buffer with every water change in order to keep things consistent.
After having done this a few times, I can now estimate the amount of baking soda and acid buffer (along with dechlor) I need to add at each change to keep the water relatively stable (pH 7.0, GH 6, KH 5).
Is there any harm in my doing this at least until the nitrites get under control? Are baking soda and acid buffer working with each other or against each other?
It seems to be working- the fish look great and I have no losses.

For the long term I have added crushed coral to one of my filters. I will also be looking into water storage receptacles so I can prepare my water before each (hopefully only weekly) change once things get fully cycled.
But for now (the next ±week) is my routine ok?

Part two question- I have an order of plants scheduled to arrive today or tomorrow. Can these be added without further complicating matters? Currently the tank has only five potted plants and alot of driftwood- details in my "specs" post.

Thanks...

[avoxo]

Cearbhaill try aerating the water out of your tap overnight before you add anything. I use to use a ph regulator for years because the water from my tap has a ph above 8.8 and a kh of less than 1. After throwing an air stone in the tote it changes the ph to 7.6-7-8 overnight. Thanks again Wetman.

I thought you were not supposed to make any water changes when using the biospira???


Avoxo

[Cearbhaill]

Originally posted by avoxo
I thought you were not supposed to make any water changes when using the biospira???
That is my understanding as well, but the nitrites bothered me too much to let things be. It had been running nearly a week before I did the first water change- I hoped the bacteria had time to adhere to something.

[wetmanNY]

Dealing with nitrites: add chloride. Chloride competes with the nitrite ions for uptake at the gill surfaces. Don't add sodium chloride (table salt). Add potassium chloride (various diet salts at the supermarket). Then the plants take up the potassium and the chlorides help the fish deal with temporary nitrites.

The air hose in the water jug doesn't need a diffuser or anytthing, just bubble it overnight and watch the pH drop without phosphate buffers.

Then you'll want a little KH stabilizer. Sodium bicarbonate is too soluble. Some crushed coral in the filter (or a teaspoon per 10 gallons sprinkled on the gravel-- but go easy, because you can't collect it again) will work in the course of a week or so...

patience! patience! easy does it! you're getting there...

[Cearbhaill]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
Dealing with nitrites: add chloride. Chloride competes with the nitrite ions for uptake at the gill surfaces. Don't add sodium chloride (table salt). Add potassium chloride (various diet salts at the supermarket). Then the plants take up the potassium and the chlorides help the fish deal with temporary nitrites.
I have this on hand.
How much (90 gallon)?

[wetmanNY]

cut n'pasted from www.skepticalaquarist.com--


How much salt should you be adding to counteract nitrite? It is the chloride ion of salt that is effective, not the sodium ion. In order to be effective, the chloride-to-nitrite ratio should be five to one. So if nitrite tests at 1 ppm, you should add enough salt (as a temporary measure) to give a chloride level of 5 ppm. This corresponds to about 8.5 ppm of NaCl (table salt); very little— a fifteenth of a teaspoon, or just a pinch in ten gallons. In fact, your water quite likely already carries this much salt, without any extra dosing at all; at any rate, your normal partial water changes will dilute out additional salt after the crisis has passed.

potassium chloride works just the same way. Nine pinches in 90 gallons?

[Cearbhaill]

Yup- I found that and assumed (hesitantly) that KCl dosed the same as NaCl.

Everything seems fine- the fish are all well, I'm staying under .50 nitrites- am I keeping it too low?

I assume there needs to be a decent reading to feed the growing bacterial colony, but I cannot seem to find that one definitive answer :D on how much is enough to keep things moving in a positive direction yet not enough to cause fish distress?

[JSchmidt]

I don't think there is a definitive answer. As long as there is nitrite in excess of what the biofilter can consume, the bacterial colony will grow. It's not clear if the the biofilter will grow faster if nitrites are at 1.0 ppm vs .5 ppm (personally, I think time is the limiting factor more than nitrite level), but it is clear that the fish will be more stressed. I'd keep doing what you're doing.

HTH,
Jim

[Cearbhaill]

Thanks for the speedy reply- I can relax a bit about the numbers. I'd rather it took longer and caused my fishies less distress.

Is 25% once a day enough?
I'd been doing it twice, but skipped this morning and things are no worse for it.

[JSchmidt]

If you're keeping nitrites below .5 ppm, I think you're doing just fine. I'd let nitrites guide my need for water changes.

HTH,
Jim

[Cearbhaill]

Got it.
Thanks!

[Cearbhaill]

To update- I had been doing twice daily 20% water changes, so yesterday AM (4/5) I opted to skip the morning change and see how things tested out later in the day.
The afternoon test showed <.50 ppm nitrites, so I again postponed the water change.
To my surprise, this AM (4/6) I have <.25 nitrites and a solid nitrate reading.

So-
Water in 3/19
Fish in 3/26 w/BioSpira
No ammonia readings ever
Nitrites worst on days 7-10
Lower nitrites noticed day 11

Not that I'm out of the woods yet, but I am breathing a bit easier.

My conclusion is that BioSpira was a definite help in hastening my cycling process, but is by no means the miracle everyone wants. You still have to test daily and be ready to adapt to whatever your water throws at you. I tested twice daily and still ran into a bit of a surprise when my nitrites went kablooey.

Advice of the day to other newbies:
A $10 test kit saved my fish- I would never, never, never advise anyone to cycle a tank without a fresh, complete test kit!
If you can afford the tank you can afford the kits necessary.
And test kits only work when well used.

[wetmanNY]

Well you came through and with no losses! I think this was a tough challenge for BioSpira-- a new 90 gallon tank with 44 tetras and rasboras and 7 Corydoras cats added right from the start, with some potted plants. No ammonia readings at all, though some nitrates.

"Excellent"
-J. Montgomery Burns

[Cearbhaill]

Just to clarify- there were the odd losses along the way. 9 Cardinals over the 11-12 day period. They didn't look that great to begin with, but still...

[JSchmidt]

Looks like you're out of the woods. Congrats!

I agree that BioSpira did help immensely... I wonder if the dosage was doubled if that would help....

Jim

[Cearbhaill]

Well- I did think a couple of times about getting another dose and seeing if it would help out any with the nitrites. If it had gone on much longer I definitely would have tried it but as it stands things are winding down on their own.

This AM (day 13) the nitrite reading was barely showing.
I haven't done the PM test yet, but expect it to be at least as good- and hopefully 0.0.

Edit: Just did my PM test and by golly!!
I have 0.0 nitrites!!
Hooray and Yeehaw!

So from new tank to 0.0 nitrites took me 13 days.
This was at 7.0 pH and usually around 78-79ºF.
All in all I lost (approximately) 12 fish out of the initial 71... most of them Cardinal Tetras.

I do of course realize that adding as many fish as I did really tested BioSpira to its fullest capacity- which was my intention. I wanted to know if it worked, as well as how well it worked. I believe I have pretty much answered that- it helped shorten cycling considerably.

[thecareys]

coulda been a very costly test though but i guess if you got the money for a 90 gallon tank you got the money for the 70 fish too