Unknown water problem???

[absolute]

If anyone could give me some advise it would appricated. Here's the story...

I have been losing some fish on a steady basis lately and I have tried almost everything that I can think of and that has been suggested by my LFS with no real success. I have a:
-65 Gal tank with a lot of assorted plants in it.
-There is atleast 6 caves with lots of plant cover.
-Filteration is currently being provided by a fluval 204 (foam/bio max/ammonia remover/"pura" nitrate lock/carbon) and a aqua clear 200 (foam/carbon/bio max)
-Water changes occur on every Weds & Sun with about 25 gal out and new water is conditioned for clorine.
-I am also using for my plant the Seachem Flourish & Excel (comp supp & organic carbon) as well as tablets for under the roots.
-I was having a problem getting my nitrates down during the spring but since I added the nitrate lock I have been able to keep them in the 12 - 20 range
-Tank temp is always at 27 c and the ammonia is at 0.0
-I have a regular white gravel base and all of the rocks are carved rainbow stone
- the diet consists of (am feeding) tetra colour flakes, tetra colour bits, freezed dried bloodworms, shrimp pellets. (pm feeding) same plus frozen blood worms and brine shrimp

Now for the fish (and I think that I might be over stocked)
2 angles, 4 kribanos, 5 bolivian rams, 3 pleco's, 3 corys, 3 loachs, 8 different gouramies, 2 silver hatchets, 4 odessa barbs, 1 spine eel, 1 apist caucatoide, 2 hoplo cats, 1 whip tail, 2 apple snails, 3 rainbows, 3 sail fin rainbows, 2 i.d. sharks, 2 rainbow sharks, 7 tetras (2 black, 2 red, 3 blue) 1 congo tetra, 3 scissor tails, 3 long fin zebra danios, 1 pim cat...

Recent losses include every golden ram I have ever tried to keep (I've tried 5 different times with about 6 each time....) MY MALE APIST CAUCATOIDE!!!
3 gourami's, i.d. shark, and one of this and two of that.

Now I know my stock is high but not all fish were in at the same time. No one except one of the Kribs shows any damage or scars. No one bother's the other except the odessa just chase each other aound. As for the p.h. and the nitrite I have never tested them.

So as I asked so long ago, whats killing by fish?????

Thanks for any help, and if you have suggestions on different food, fertalizers, anything please let me know :thm:

[plah831]

the only reliable way to remove nitrates is to do more frequent water changes. the nitrate-locking stuff like Amquel+ are just cover-ups.

also, you need to use a tap water conditioner that neutralizes chloramines because these do not dissipate through aging water. most municipal water supplies now use these because they're more stable than chlorine. the only thing that will remove chloramines which are toxic to fish, is with a conditioner like Prime or Amquel+.

how long has your tank been set up? do you have ammonia readings (nitrite you should measure too if you have the means)?

[Rbishop]

Well, I can't tread to deeply here since I do not hav much experience with planted tanks.

It would help to give a full set of readings, pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Use water changes to maintain your nitrates in an acceptable range.

With or without plants, I agree with you, you are overstocked, especially if you are losing fish and haven't resolved the issue. The list and your next comments are abit confusing. Can you post again and say this is what's in there right now...?

[liv2padl]

you are very overstocked and the fact that you cannot maintain your nitrates at or below 10 ppm with water changes of 50 gallons a week is indicative. you almost certainly have a high dissolved organic load which will kill fish.

too, such a crowded tank creates significant stress for the fish which is expressed as die-offs. the fact that you see no outright brawling means nothing. fish need room to swim without having the rest of the tanks inhabitants "in their face" continuously. when crowded, fish exhibit stress syndromes that can result in poor color, improper fin form, insufficient metabolic development, proper musculature development, properly functioning organ systems and most importantly loss of their inherant resistance to disease. this, in turn, can result in a significantly shortened lifespan and along the way, lots of diseases for which the poorly conditioned fish is a good target..

think about your local lake or river --- the fish are free to inhabit whatever space suits them biologically. if it gets crowded by their standards, some will disperse and move to other areas where they again have the space they need to exhibit functional behaviour.

it's difficult to allow for that "space" in your tank -- the fish have no escape within the confines of your tank so it's up to you to insure that the fish have that space in the first place. your fish have no space.

if you want to put a stop to all the losses you're experiencing, cut your fish load by half.

[mazeman22]

OK i agree with everyone above me but, what did you say you have in your canister filter? I had the problem with adding ammonia-removers before. And since you have not tested your nitrites nor nitrates I feel your anwser lies withen those two test. And i imagine they are both high so I believe once you get those test results you need a BIG water change to get that lowered, I could be wrong. But i'm diffinately not saying you can overstock by that much and get away with it. So plz give a few fish back to your lfs and keep the ones that are the most compatiable and the ones you like the best, ok? :o


Now take care and good luck!!!! :cool2:

[mduros]

As liv2padl suggested, cut your fish load in half. Get a second tank and split up your fish. That's what I did.

Plan of action:
1) Rehome some of your fish; or,
2) Get a second aquarium, no less than a 29 gallon.

I would also stop all of the dosing for the plants and the nitrate lock. These are probably adding more stress to the situation, especially if you haven't added extra aeration for your fish. I only say this because I have a bolivian ram that is extremely sensitive to excel dosing and I can only get away with it in his tank when I run extra bubble wands for additional surface agitation. But I ultimately stopped dosing the tank because he's more important than the plants.
Good luck and take care,
Mary.

[absolute]

Thanks for the quick replys everyone here are the answers to some of the question that were asked. I did every test I could find for my water using a tetra test kit and here are the results...

PH - 7.5
NO2 (Nitrite)- 0.3 mg/L (ideal is listed below 0.8 mg/L max is listed at 1.6)
NO3 (Nitrate)- 20 mg/L (ideal is listed below 25 mg/L tolerable is between 25 mg/L - 50 mg/L and above 50 mg/L is toxic)
NH3 & NH4 (ammonia)- 0.0 mg/L
General Hardness - 9dh (instruction list ideal range between 6dh-16dh)


mazeman22- inside the fluval I have 4 foam pads, bottom level is activated carbon, second level is the "PURA" carbon lock, thirds level is biomax. Inside the aqua clear 200 I am using foam, cardon, biomax.

rbishop- Inside the tank currently are 2 Angles, 4 Kribanos, 5 Bolivian Rams, 3 Pleco's (2 are very small and the other is about 4 "), 3 Cory Cats, 3 Black Kaluhi Loachs, 8 Different Gouramies (Dwarf, Kissing, Honey, Moonlight, Blue, Pearl), 2 Silver Hatchets, 4 Odessa Barbs, 1 Spine eel, 1 Apist Caucatoide, 2 Hoplo Cats, 2 Apple Snails, 3 Rainbows, 3 Sail Fin Rainbows, 2 I.D. Sharks, 2 Rainbow Sharks, 7 Tetras (2 black, 2 red, 3 blue) 1 Congo Tetra, 3 Scissor Tails, 3 Long Fin Zebra Danios, 1 Pim Cat.

plah831- The tanks has been set for about 6 months and I have been using a water conditioner that removes chloramines with every water change.


If anyobe has any more suggestions please let me know,
Thanks

[DaisyTattoo]

I would say stress is the major problem. With your stocking level, the fish have to be swimming right on top of each other. You definately need to get the ID sharks into a new home. They get huge and are pretty timid fish. They will start bumping into things before long. The plecos leave a huge amount of waste, so you might think of rehoming those as well. Another thing to mention is that just because you don't see it, doesn't mean the aggression is not there. Much aggression happens during the nighttime hours. It may be happening just after you are in dreamland for the night. I will go with everyone else and say rehome about half of your fish. Especially since it seems some if not most of them are still not full grown. If you allow them to get full size you are going to have one HUGE problem on your hands.

[liv2padl]

If anyobe has any more suggestions please let me know, more suggestions? you haven't taken the first suggestions to heart yet. get rid of half of those fish. you have way too many fish in that tank and the crowding stress is significant. you will continue to lose fish until you've thinned out the stocking density to a level the fish can tolerate.


NO2 - ideal is listed below 0.8 mg/L max is listed at 1.6 this is incorrect and i don't care where you read otherwise. nitrite needs to be ZERO and any readable above ZERO is unacceptable. nitrite is more toxic than ammonia.

[DaisyTattoo]

nitrite needs to be ZERO and any readable above ZERO is unacceptable. nitrite is more toxic than ammonia.
Yep. Nitrite needs to be at 0 at all times. If it EVER reads above that you need to be changing water IMMEDIATELY! That will kill fish very quickly. Please listen to the advice given to you. The people who are helping you aren't around much anymore so you really should feel blessed that they bothered with your post.

[Rbishop]

Well, there are people helping you that are around.

I'd latch on to a 55 gal and split the bio-load; even then you will have to pass on some of the mix you have.

For starters, give back the pleco's, all the sharks, the eel, and at least half if noyt all the rainbows.

Get your current tank under immediate control by water changes so ammonia and nitrites are at zero. Review fish profiles here and at other sites to determine how to best split up your remaining fish.

Get a handle on how to cycle the new tank. You can jump start it instantly with bio-spira, nothing else except maybe media/substrate from your existing tank.

I'd ditch the plants for now until you have stabilized tanks of good chemistry and stability of readings. Kill the ammo lock, and other additives except for the conditioner you need to remove chlorine and chloramine.

How often are vacuuming the substrate?

[absolute]

I want to thank everyone who gave me the advise :o

I've got a new 40 gal tank coming tomorrow with all the goddie's and most of the fish that I was advised to get rid of are going to a new home also.

I've got one more question, sand vs. gravel. Since I'm getting a new tank I was thinking about using sand. Is there a sand substrate that will not raise the ph to a dangerous level? Is this a good idea for a tropical tank? And if I want to add plants later can I?


Thanks again everyone!!!