Very Bad Ick - Copper not working!!

[rightnow]

I have other threads about trying to beat Ick and I went with QT and Copper. Since then I have lost a couple Damsels, 2 ClownFish, and my Koran Angel. The Nitrites got very very high and I did a huge water change. I might have caught it too late and I am thinking maybe that is why the Koran died. I have been using the Copper for a week now and day 3-4 semmed to get a little better. I could only see it slightly on the Hippo Tang. Now day 7 it is back all over the hippo tang and another Damsel .My sailfin looked like it had nothing and now it is back on him also. How long does it take copper to work? Also I was thinking about quittting the Copper and trying something else like Formalin. Is this a good idea? Can I add Quick Cure with the Copper? I hope I can save something, it is not looking good. I know you have to have the correct amount of Copper or it will hurt the fish or do nothing to the Ick. THe test kit is so vauge, is there a better kit? Please help, THanks

[psychadelicdrea]

i never heard of useing copper to treat ich.....and copper ruins your tank...and from what i read it makes it uninhabitable for corals ......do a search on the site theirs tons of threads about curing ich without dumping copper in your tank

[BadRoma1]

Quinsulex from Aquatronics. can be hard to find. check your LFS's. this med worked within 2 days and no secondary infections. u will see ich, but it will not look like healthy ich, more like smeared untill it's gone. 5 days of treatment in total. i don't even know what to tell u to do with copper at this point. o.k. i've got an idea. set up another tank with water from your main tank and some sand for bio activity, don't forget a power stone. go to wallmart, get a set of 20 gallons tank, pay for it, save the reciept, use it for what u need, return the tank back to wallmart when u done and get your money back. when u bring a tank home, set it up close to the one u have, move the fish and medicate with the med i'm recomending. call around for the med before u actualy go to you local fish stores. and don't worry about nitrates, they don't really effect the fish, just the amount of desolved organics. i also never tryed formalin

[BadRoma1]

forgot to say that some clown fish don't handle copper at any ammount, not talking about the high ammount like u have for treating ich.

[68551]

Please see the message I posted on "white spots" thread.....68551 Sue

[Lorna]

set up another tank with water from your main tank and some sand for bio activity, don't forget a power stone. go to wallmart, get a set of 20 gallons tank, pay for it, save the reciept, use it for what u need, return the tank back to wallmart when u done and get your money back. when u bring a tank home, set it up close to the one u have, move the fish and medicate with the med i'm recomending.


What a totally irresponsible suggestion. To suggest that someone go to Walmart, buy a tank, take it home, treat their fish with who knows what, then take the tank back after????????

It is people like this that makes you wonder why all of a sudden you can't keep snails or anything in your tank you bought from Walmart and set up, did everything right and still they die???

copper and other medications render the tank totally unusable for any other purpose ever. D

[BadRoma1]

Lorna. the med i recomended can be washed off easy. and of cause u wash everything off before the return. so i didn't think of it as a big deal. i didn't recomend copper or anything harmful like that in the first place. i hate copper and don't think it works or worths anybody's time. and i don't believe that everybody out there returns the QT after use. i still have mine. so there is no way that returned QTs are the reason why lots of people can't keep their animals alive. besides, didn't u read this post so u could help Rightnow with the problem he is having? or do u read posts to start fights? :joe:

[Lorna]

No I don't read this to pick fights........but I can't sit by in good concience and listen to someone suggest something that is unethical.......I didn't say it was the cause of people's livestock dying.....but that it makes me question the integrity of items I purchase when I am not sure someone *not you in particular* reads this thread and DOES go out there, use copper, then return something after they are finished using it. That is one of the reasons in general that we pay too much for things.....That is like buying a prom dress and wearing it to the prom and returning it monday morning.....nice......

Everyone who enters this hobby should keep a quarantine tank or hospital tank in storage for just this instance.......

I wasn't contradicting your advice, just your methods.....and if you can't take the heat get out of the water.

[Crown Royal]

Copper and hyposalinity are the only ways to eliminate the ich (cryptocaryon irritans) parasite.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

Any type of treatment takes time and requires you to deal with the ENTIRE life cycle of the parasite which can take a month or longer.

[BadRoma1]

Crown Royal, i don't agree with that. u can speed up ich's life cycle by getting temp. higher. also there are meds now that can kill ick even if it's deep in the skin of the fish. hyposalinity and copper are too very old ways of getting rid of ick, and both are very slow acting and i think only somewhat effective as preventitive( also copper can kill some fish even in low ammounts)

[scott foster]

Copper?????Somebody told me to raise the temp. in tank. But please dont take my advice without doing research.

[Crown Royal]

Crown Royal, i don't agree with that.

That's cool. My wife doesn't agree with me either most of the time :p:

u can speed up ich's life cycle by getting temp. higher.

1. A faster life cycle doesn't do anything unless you break it (the life cycle) somewhere along the way.

2. You can only speed the life cycle up so much. Virtually everything out there recommends leaving the main tank "fallow" (i.e. fishless) for AT LEAST one month to ENSURE that ALL parasites have died while you treat all the fish in a quarantine tank.

3. Invertebrates are generally less tolerant of temperatures in the mid to higher 80s as is usually suggested making prolonged exposure very problematic in a reef setting.

also there are meds now that can kill ick even if it's deep in the skin of the fish.

I'd be very interested in these meds. What are their names?

hyposalinity and copper are too very old ways of getting rid of ick, and both are very slow acting and i think only somewhat effective as preventitive

Very old, but very effective. They are "slow acting" simply because of the nature of the parasite's life cycle.

Once you have eradicated all parasites, why would you need to use either as a "preventative"? Some LFS use constant low levels of copper, but this is a potentially dangerous practice as it is only effective above certain levels and long-term chronic copper exposure can be deadly.

also copper can kill some fish even in low ammounts

Very true as I've indicated. But the large majority marine fish commonly found in the aquarium trade such as tangs, damselfishes, etc. take copper quite well for the relatively short periods required for treatment. Only certain fish such as sharks and rays are unable to stand copper.

[BadRoma1]

copper can kill some clown fish and jaw fish too. the med that killed ich directly on my fish was Quinsulex from Aquatronics. not reef safe, but the fish had no secondary infections. doesn't effect bio bacteria and easy to get out of the system, like filtering, water changes, or just simply washing the QT for next time

[gomrjoe]

How large of a QT would I realistically need to house the following critters from my 100 gallon??

Pac blue tang
Yellow tang
Coral Beauty
3 spotted cardinal fish
3 reef chromis
mated pair perc clowns
diamond watchman goby

I am thinking at least a 45 gallon, but the thing is, I really don't have the space to accomodate such a QT. I have access to a 20 gallon, but I don't think this will do. I am considering emptying my main tank for 30 days to clear the ich once and for all.

[BadRoma1]

u have ich too? another thing that i wanted to note is that Coral Vital by Marc Weiss should be able to keep ich at bay on the regular bases, but don't know for sure. i also have been adding vitamins into the food and vitamin C into the water, which i strongly believe help to keep my fish looking great in overall. the healthier fish is the less chance of them braking out in ich

[Crown Royal]

Quinsulex is quinine sulfate. Along with other quinine-based medications, it's hit and miss according to the following sources:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_4.html

Quinine has been around since the 18th century to treat malaria and it's also the "tonic" in tonic water.

If it worked for you, that's great, and it's worth a try if you have scaleless fish. But it's not as reliable as copper/hyposalinity.

Keeping your fish well-fed and healthy is always a good idea. However, ensuring that there aren't ANY ich parasites around (by proper quarantine techniques and use of copper/hyposalinity) you know that even if things are not 100%, you won't have a sudden outbreak.

[BadRoma1]

i don't think any of this methods work 100%. there are many people say that what they used worked great for ich and many that say that the same treatments didn't work at all. it's possible that many people confuse ich with something else. i was there with ich problem too, at one time, and used many named methods that didn't work for me either, not until named drug. also, it treats other simular parasites and i felt that it was the best way to go without guessing if i got the name of a parasite right. and as for scaleless fish, the med isn't just for that type of fish but for any, it's just often u can't use some meds with scaleless fish, but u can with this med and that's why the company noted scaleless first. now, i'm not saying that this med is effective at all times and everybody must use it, u always should stick to something that works for u, and the reason i can't say it is because i only used it once and thankfuly didn't have an outbreak of anything for some time. i also know only one person that tryed it and it's me, so that's why i can't say for sure. but one thing i wanted to note is when i used everything else before i had 3 ich outbreakes and lost every but one fish by using everything out there, until i got the med that i recomend.

[scott foster]

Salt,Salt,Salt................ciclid salt, just a little more than the package says and raise the temp. just a bit.,,,,,Worked for me.

[BadRoma1]

u are on the right track for fresh water, that's the way to go!!!

[scott foster]

If you have tried everything else and nothing worked try boric acid it will kill ick everytime........NO NO NO I am just kidding!!!!!!!Like I said before dont take my advice without research. I am new and I like to kid alot. But cichlid salt is natural. Not some chemical.

[68551]

:duh: I don't want to keep beating a dead horse but if you want to get rid of ick I have the cure.....Over a month ago I was frantic to save the pride of my tank.....a 5 inch Purple Tang.....The ick was all over him....I went to the LFS & they sold me copper....I went to another store & got a product called "STOP PARASITES" by Chem Marin......I came home & got on the internet to research my purchases.....I decided I definately DID NOT want to use copper....I was afraid to use the Stop Parasites since I have a reef tank....I didn't want to use a QT....If Quarrantine = stress ....& stress = outbreak of ick .....It was bad enough already......It was 10:30 PM on a Sunday night & my fish was grey, listing to one side & covered with the tell tale white spots.....I decided to call the phone # on the internet (570-602-4253) AND COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY (AL CIANNELLI) ANSWERED THE PHONE!!!!!! He talked me through it....asked a lot of questions & made recommendations how to treat....The instructions said treat 2 times a day for 5 days....My Tang still had ick after 5 days but was noticably better....Al CALLED ME numerous times to ask how the Tang was....Finally, after 16 days of treatments he is CURED!!!!! That was a couple weeks ago....There have been NO more spots....I have held off writing because I wanted to be sure the ick wouldn't cycle back, but I assure you it is GONE!!!!! If I had followed the 5 day plan he wouldn"t have been cured completely, but with the persistance of Al monitoring my progress and continuing the treatments for a longer time. I couldn't be happier, IT WORKED!!!! In todays world of terrible service I couldn't believe that Al cared enough to stick with me & cure my Tang til the spots were gone......I can easily say that Al provided the BEST customer service that I have ever experienced....If you have ick.....here's the CURE!!!!

[scott foster]

WOW! I am gonna write down that Al fellers name and number. I will use him for any problems I have in the future. I would still try the natural cures before chemicals. I bet you Al would agree.

[68551]

His product is all natural, it has a pepper base of some sort but the ingredients are not on the bottle.....He told me that other companies have tried to match the formula & can't get it right.....Kent Marine tried to buy him out but he is a hands on type of producer so he won't list ingredients for fear of them figuring out the ingredients.. This product also stops other parasites besides ich....It also protected the other fish in my tank from getting infected, I even bought some new fish during the treatment because the stress of being moved could have caused an outbreak on them....

[cyberbeer65]

DO NOT use copper or copper containing products in a fish tank.

Copper not only kills invertibrates,it also kills fish,and you can never completely get copper out of a fish tank.

Salt and heat is the way to go if you want to kill ich.

[BadRoma1]

68551 :dance: i'm not a guy with the problem, but i wanted to thank u for sharing your exp. i will keep in mind for myself. i did p.m. to Rightnow about u and what worked for u and i really hope that Rightnow will let us know how everything is going soon. i really would like to know how's everything. he's been quiet, so i hope his fish are o.k.

[68551]

Thank you BadRoma1!!!!! I probably should have written sooner but as you know...ich can re-cycle & I didn't want to be overly hopeful....I hope he gets back to us too, I would like to know how his fish are doing & what he DID end up using to cure them...68551....Sue

[scott foster]

68551 :dance: i'm not a guy with the problem, but i wanted to thank u for sharing your exp. i will keep in mind for myself. i did p.m. to Rightnow about u and what worked for u and i really hope that Rightnow will let us know how everything is going soon. i really would like to know how's everything. he's been quiet, so i hope his fish are o.k.


O.M.G. I hope the guy with the ick problem did not end up getting ick himself..... :sick: .....................stranger things have happened

[BadRoma1]

:joke:

[Max]

Lots of folks seem to be suggesting salt that will work but, there is an issue. Please, don't attempt hypo salinity in a reef tank! It will kill you corals a lot faster than it will kill your ich. I also agree with everyone else about the copper even a trace amount will nuke a reef . It often times will remain in lethal dosage even after the removal of all substraights etc.
These problems can all be avoided with a hospital tank. The set up should be fairly inexpensive if you only use it for new introductions. In cases where you have an entire tank issue I'd get a sponge filter, appropriate sized rubbermaid container and a heater and use it for any treatments. Always keep a sponge or two read in you main tanks sump or hidden away somewhere.
That won't work if you have other issues that would require anti-biotics but, it would keep your tank much better shape. If you're ever in a situation where you needed to remove all fish please continue to feed the tank so as to keep up your bacterial population.
my 2 cents worth