Angels and Neons

[sophiecat22]

OK, I know that neon tetras are the natural prey of angelfish, but I've also heard that if they are raised together, then they can coexist without any problems. I'm wondering how true this is because I'm planning on having a school of about 10 neon tetras along with about 3 yo yo loaches and maybe a couple of ottos and I'm considering 1 or 2 angels as my "centerpeice" fish in my 30 gallon long. Will this combination of fish work? I know I'll eventually end up with a larger tank, but that may not be for another year or two.

If this combination is no good, what is another medium sized, colorful fish that I could have as a "centerpiece" fish in my tank?

[justmetcw01]

I had 12 neon tetras in the tank with my 2 angels...all was fine until they started getting ready to lay eggs, now all the neons seem to have "disappeared"

[Mgamer20o0]

i would make sure to keep them well feed. the only thing i would think about is angelfish do get to be a good size. 30 gal doesnt give them that much room ro move.

[sophiecat22]

Is it possible to tell the difference between male and female angels when they are still young? Or at all (before they pair off) for that matter? Could I keep 2 angels in a 30 long (dimensions are 36 1/4" x 12 5/8" x 16 3/4")? I did want a non-breeding pair of kribs as the centerpiece fish but changed my mind about them because I wasnt sure that they would be willing to share the bottom of the tank with 3 loaches.

[Mgamer20o0]

i think the pros can. i heard its really hard. basicly they say to get 6-8 in hopes of getting males and females.

[sophiecat22]

hmm...well I'm just worried about ending up with a male and female and having that pair kill off all the other fish in an attempt to spawn.

[Mgamer20o0]

yea thats why i said 30 gal isnt to big for angels.

[tai95]

Is it possible to tell the difference between male and female angels when they are still young? Or at all (before they pair off) for that matter?
This is my male
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/tai95/Fish/399f0e05.jpg
this is my female
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/tai95/Fish/610f09d3.jpg
Can you tell the differnce between them?

[Star_Rider]

the only real way to tell is to wait till they spawn.. the ovipositor in the female is short and larger than the males tube.

outside of that there are too many inconsistencies. some use the fin method others one is supposed to be 90 degrees the other like 120 or something like that. in the picture you can see how the males ventral fin is almost verticle and the females leans away from the ovipositor. one problem with this method...are we seeing the females fins at full extention.?

however, this is not consitent with all angels

suggest the bump on the forehead.( I have females and males that have this )

[DaisyTattoo]

The female is spotted tai ;)

[EahInMass]

I have a pair of spawning angels in my 40 gallon with black neons...I see the angels go after the rummy noses more than anything, but they're still around too! I think it all depends on the actual size of the fish...some neons and rummys are quite small...whereas if you get them a little larger they would be more of an effort on the angels part to swallow them up! lol, good luck.

[sophiecat22]

Tai, you're angels are gorgeous!! What size tank do you have them in?

I went to 2 LFS today and I'm torn between two different fish: I could go with my original plan and get a pair of kribs (found some really beautiful kribs at the first store) or I could get a couple of angels (this store as amazing koi and marble angels) from the second store. I thought this was kind of funny: the first store has really healthy kribs for $3.99 and "so-so" looking angels for $6.99 and the second store had really healthy angels for $3.99 and "so-so" looking kribs for $6.99 lol...that really makes things difficult...

Which do you guys think I should go with? Remember, I'm definitly going to have 3 yo yo's and either cardinals or neons or both in the tank.

[tai95]

Tai, you're angels are gorgeous!! What size tank do you have them in?



Thank you. They are in a 55gal just them and a couple of bristlenose plecos. Those pictures are old they are a lot bigger now. I'll take some new ones one of these days.

[Star_Rider]

tai,
these a spawning pair? I had to remove the bn from my 55 with spawning pairs as the bn would eat the eggs.. very nice looking angels

I have a pair of the gold sunset ..mine have a couple of small black spots(kois) but look very much like yours.but the males are large less than 1 year old and nearly 7" dorsal to analfin..wish I could take as nice a picture.

[Sully]

you will also have issues with 3 Yo-Yo's in a 29. Just not enough space for very active swimmers. Within close quarters i think you will find the Yo-Yo's intimidate the the angels. And angels simply don't like the kind of stress they will create. If you are going to keep those two species together I would think you want a much larger tank to create get away space.

[sophiecat22]

Its not a 29 gallon (30" x 12" x 18), its a 30 gallon long (36" x 12" x 16"). I'm also considering a 38 gallon (36" x 12" x 20") that I saw today but I'm not sure if I'm going to go with that.

[coupedefleur]

The angels will like deeper water, the kribs don't really need more than 12".

Kribs would probably be easier to breed, if that's something you'd like to try. They are fun to watch. You can make an entire village of coconut shell huts for them!

Keyhole cichlids would also be good, even though they're not terribly colorful. It is interesting to watch how their markings change according to mood.

Instead of neons, why not pick some of the more disc-shaped tetras like lemons, bleeding hearts, etc? There are cheaper live foods than neons.

[sophiecat22]

I'm not a big fan of the "disk-shaped" tetras, they just seem so plain to me. I'd really like to have a large-ish school of tetras or a combination of neons and cardinals. I was thinking either 10-12 neons or 6-7 neons and 5-6 cardinals. But I've heard that cardinals aren't as hardy as neons and they are definitly more $$ (neons are $1.49 @ petsmart and cardinals are $3.99).

I'm not looking to breed them, but hey, if it happens, it happens :p: .

[Dustin83]

Going back to your first questions, I can tell you my experience.

Years ago, a friend of mine once gave me a baby angel (less than 1"). I didn't want to risk putting him(or her) in a large tank with bigger tankmates, so I kept him in my 29 gallon community tank which had 6 neons or so. I've kept him in there until he was about 3 inches long but never had a problem with the neons. I'm not sure what would have happened if I continued to keep him in there, but the tank eventually looked too small for him, so I moved him to a bigger tank. Personally, I think that the idea that if you keep them when they're small then they get along even later on is somewhat true (Not based on any research... just based on my personal experience). But like someone said up there, I guess that if you have a breeding pair, things could be different. Also, it's possible that every fish will act differently. But I can tell you at least that I've had success with it.

[Stidham]

I have a 55 with 2 angels. 1 pretty good size and 1 small one. I can't keep neons at all. I love neons too. I put a school of 10 in there once and within 48 hours they were gone.


Later,
Dave

[dorris]

Hi. I raised a pair of angels(normal wildtype) from the tiny size of about 2cm, which included their fins. So they were tiny bubs. They began in a very small 10G tank by themselves. I wished for a pair but what are the odds right. I chose two, one larger than the other. After a few weeks cycling, with a large piece of driftwood I collected from a local river in the tank. I had no light on the tank and the driftwood wasn't entirely cured so brown algae sprouted covering the wood. When the angels were introduced all by themselves, at such a tiny age, they were rather scared for their lives. Fortunately the driftwood was positioned so they could go beneath it and take cover from "birds", which aren't in my room. When they noticed the algae they fell in love with life, their colours and bars came out and they happily ate algae all day long, which also helped them grow rather quickly.

After a week I added some half grown peppered coris to clean up the food the timid angels weren't getting. The coris were larger than the angels and baffled the little sods. The next week I added 5 Cardinals, who were also young but still a bit large than the angels. The cardinals made them feel more comfortable in their little home.

I must remind you that this tank was heavily planted. Without plants these poor little fish would have not gone too well I predict. But plants are a necessity I think for new and young fish to feel at home.

Of coarse the Angels grew too large for this tank and were moved to a 30G along with some more Cardinals and the coris. Added was a small school of Kerri(or King) Tetras as well as some common blue/gold rams(love these fish). The Angels have grown as large as they can in this tank now, and turned out that I had chosen a pair who have now spawned in the community tank 3 times.(The Rams have spawned countless times)

I have a HEAVILY planted tank with lots of rocky caves, driftwood, and immense vegetation. This, along with the fact that my Angels grew up with Cardinals I think has granted the tetras a safe life. My Angels can't exactly catch them amongst the plants etc. and they probably haven't grown large enough to actually eat them anyway. Besides this I feed my fish 2-3 times a day so they are well fed. I don't over-feed, just well feed. A small brecky snack consisting of a little bit of dried food, lunch is usually a block of frozen bloodworms, and occasionally a small dinner at night of some other dried food. I feed them as many different foods as I can stock and give them live food instead of frozen when ever possible. And if Im not home then they dont mind missing a feed. They are just really stoked to see me when I get home.

My Angels seem to like the tetras, making them feel safe and at home. They never give chase to them or anything. Very occasionally they enjoy charging through the middle of the school of Cardinals to watch them scatter and stand proud where they once stood. But they dont wish to eat them. I think they are too well fed to bother really.

However... I am just about to start cycling a 60G tank for my fish and plan on adding a few more tetras and dwarf cichlids as well as more plants of course for them to hide in. I just hope the Angels don't become vicious killers as they have never displayed such tendencies in their lives.

I shall report back for you and tell you how they progress in the future. But personally I believe it can be done. And with only a 40G tank the Angels shouldn’t grow so big that they can eat them, as long as they are fed enough, and the tetras can easily escape and hide, they shouldn't bother trying. Just be sure that there are many places the Angels can't go, but the Tetras can, and you should be right. People who have this problem I think the tetras have no place to hide so make easy targets.

Of course, Marbled Angels and Altums do grow larger than the type I have, which is the smallest type you can get. I have seen people manage fine with larger tetras such as the Sarpae(spelling?) Tetras with Marbled Angels.

Personally, vegetation, caves, should work fine. But if angels were introduced who have not been raised with tetras, I would bet the Angels would be hungry for them.

I would be scared to have Kribs with Loaches though. Best to keep fish from the same region in my mind. Otherwise it can get difficult to keep the peace.

Apologies for rambling. Just thought Id give my 2 cents. I love my Amazon aquariums incase no one noticed.

I have to recommend using the best water possible. I use mostly rainwater, mixed with underground spring water. You can't use 100% rainwater, its too soft. 10% springwater, at least. you can go 100% spring water, but when I add rainwater they spawn like crazy. Water changes once a week or two weeks at the most. Also, CO2 and fertilisers for your plants.

I will own a digital camera by the time my new tank is settled so I can shoot some photos of my pride and joy.

Hope I have helped someone. Thanks for listening.

[Star_Rider]

i am wondering..you mention smaller angel.

do you have leopoldi? these are the smallest angels reaching about 4"
the other two that have been identified are Scalare and Altum. I belive the altum is the largest.

I have wild scalare and domestic..there is no way I would put anything that would fit in the mouths of the Peruvian Scalare..they are voracious and vicious when they feed.

The leopoldi are hard to come by(from my experience) most angelsin the stores are domestic scalare*marble, koi, pearl..etc)

[dorris]

No I just have normal domestic Scalare. By wildtype I mean, not wild cought, just the coloration. Im guessing that the small ones you are talking about are derived from the original Scalare at some time. I'm not too fond of all the variations that have been produced from inbreeding and what not and prefer the original wild coloration. I just prefer a more natural looking fish. Personal preferance I guess.

Oh no, I just remembered leopoldi is the third strain. I haven't seen them in pet stores before but have seen them in books.

[Star_Rider]

I see. LOL..yes the leopoldi's are the third confimred species..tho there is much debate about other possible species to consider(possible cross strains that may be classified.who knows for sure..I leave that for the angel experts to argue...LOL)

most scalare get pretty big tho I have seen some varieties that don't get real large..

I like the look of the wild angels too..I love the coloration of the Altums with the black and brown bars...thin lines of white(light coloration)

I was lucky and got a few Peruvian Scalare..beautiful angels..a lot more agressive than my domestic scalare.

I have 6 altums on order but not sure when they are scheduled to arrive.

[jm1212]

man i love angels... really good fish.
about the Pterophylum l. (they are also called the "dumpy" angelfish bacause they dont look as sophistacated as P.s or P.a) they arent usually found in stores but when they are they are usually sold as common angels, a rare color form of the common angel (Pterophylum s.), or an extremely rare species is sold as a different species but may just be a subspecies of either P.s or P.altum. i have done alot of reading on the angel species and there are three confirmed, and two more that are either a subspecies of P.s or P.a (either both P.s or both P.a or one of each).

by the way... P.a are the biggest getting to around 8-10", then P.s, which gets to 5-7", and then P.l, which gets to around 4 inches
i wonder what a discus/angel hybrid would look like....

[dorris]

I can't even imagine what an angel/discus would look like but I would bet that it is not impossible without some serious genetic splicing and crazy frankenstine science.

I read some things about angels last night that was interesting about the different angel species. Check it out:

http://finarama.com/tba/timeline.htm

[Star_Rider]

you can check out AFF II lots of nice folks there. also if you want to get more indepth info about angels check out the Angelfish Society.

there is a ton of material out there and lots of great discussion about angels..

as far as a discus angel hybrid...I'm not much for hybridization..however, it is possible for hybrids to occur... personally it may be an interesting combination..coud you imagine an angel with those colors??

:D
more commonly you may see instances of cross breeding of the species of angels...which leads to many discussions...LOL

[jm1212]

I can't even imagine what an angel/discus would look like but I would bet that it is not impossible without some serious genetic splicing and crazy frankenstine science.

I read some things about angels last night that was interesting about the different angel species. Check it out:

http://finarama.com/tba/timeline.htm
i think it would be possible, their bodies are shaped alike, and after that fry hatch occasionaly they will nibble at the skin secretions of their adult parent angels... much like discus.
now that i think about it i be an angel/discus hybrid would be the shape of the discus with the tall fins of the angel

[dorris]

Yeh it could look amazing realy. The fins and the colours combined. I still don't think we'd ever see it happen. Like, you can cross fish from the same species, like the diff angels, but I just dont think u can cross fish that are of diff species. I know say a platy and a swordtail can. But I think even though the angel and discus have the same thin body, I dont think that is enough to let it happen. If it could happen it should nearly happen in the wild. I don't know. Science is an amazing thing.