hazy water in new tank

[amuro129]

Hello,

I got a 60 gallon acrilyc tank about 4 days ago along with a Fluval 404. The water has been crystal clear for the past 3 days but when I saw it this morning the water was rather hazy. There are no fish inside the tank yet. Does anyone know why? Thanks for any input.

rob

[AikidoGuy]

thats normal, the tank is cycling, give it a few days and it will clear up. in the mean time dont put anyfish in it yet.

[amuro129]

thanks alot, is there anything else i should know or do for a good cycle?

[AikidoGuy]

hmm.. um.. oh yeah.. dont change the water or it will just start over and prolong the process, if its getting cloundy now that most likely because your bacteria colony (this is good) is starting to bloom. i would just leave it alone for a few days and forget it there so your not tempted to change the water. get back to us when it clears up and well tell ya what to do from that point ok ! and in the mean time get your self a test kit if you dont already have one.

[TnCgal]

Wait a second... did I miss something ? :confused:

I don't think Amuro said anything about adding any ammonia and he did state there are no fish in the tank yet so for it to be cycling without ammonia would not be possible.

I also disagree with the statement that water changes delay a cycle to the point of having to start over. Water changes with a fishless cycle are not necessary until the end of the cycling period to reduce nitrAtes but with a fishless cycle, water changes are "so" important that they can literally mean the difference between life and death for the fish. There has never been any evidence to support the theory that the water changes will decrease nitrifying bacteria. Think about it... they don't decrease nitrifying bacteria "after" the cycle, so it would be safe to assume that they wouldn't decrease nitrifying bacteria "during" the cycle ! :)

Amuro, there is much information available for beginners on the cycle ... or to be more exact, the "nitrogen cycle" and to be successful in this hobby it is essential that you read and learn as much as you possibly can about it. It's "Basic fish-keeping 101", haha . :)

IMO, here are the 2 best websites for the explanation of the nitrogen cycle, and specifically you might want to read about the "fishless cycle". This is a much safer way to cycle your new tank without exposing any of your fish to harmful and toxic chemicals thus decreasing fish suffering and loss.

www.thekrib.com
www.skepticalaquarist.com

BTW, the haziness of your water is normal for new aquariums and is likely either dust or particulates suspended in the water that are related to new gravel in your tank (sometimes this can happen if the gravel wasn't rinsed thorough enough) or a bacterial bloom that is unrelated to the nitrogen cycle, yet is a usual occurence to new aquarium setups. In all likelihood it will go away on its own.

Good luck and let us know if you have any other questions we can answer for you. :)

[JSchmidt]

Amuro, if you plan to cycle without fish, here's a great article on it. Many of us routinely cycle new tanks without exposing fish to toxic ammonia and nitrite, and we'd be happy to hold your hand if you decide to go that route.

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/cycle2.shtml

As long as I'm at it, I'll share my thoughts on cloudiness. First of all, the color can give you a clue as to what the problem is. If it's a green-tinted cloudiness, the problem is most likely a bloom of unicellular algae.

If the cloudiness is white, it could be either particulates (like dust from your gravel) or microorganisms. Usually, if particulates are going to cloud your water, it will happen immediately and slowly disappear (over a week or so). If the cloudiness develops over the course of some time, it generally means there is an abundance of some of the normal microorganisms that inhabit our tank. There are lots of these critters, and they feed on each other, so if one populations grows quicker than another, you get a bloom that makes the water look cloudy.

Please note that these microbes are NOT the same ones that we refer to as the beneficial bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite. Therefore, you can have a white-water outbreak that has no bearing on the tank's cycle. Often, the cloudiness occurs early in a tank's life, so it's easy to think that it's related to the cycle, but it's independent. I've had fully cycled tanks that, for some reason, developed cloudiness but suffered no loss of the biofilter.

If you have white water that seems to fit the description of a microorganism bloom, the best treatment is to do nothing. It will go away. You can change the water, but you'll just reduce the number of organisms in the water column, and they'll quickly reproduce and the cloudiness will return. You really just need to wait for the populations of organisms to come into balance and all will clear up.

Hope this is helpful... don't be afraid to come back and let us know if you need assistance with cycling questions.

Jim

[amuro129]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Amuro, if you plan to cycle without fish, here's a great article on it. Many of us routinely cycle new tanks without exposing fish to toxic ammonia and nitrite, and we'd be happy to hold your hand if you decide to go that route.

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/cycle2.shtml

As long as I'm at it, I'll share my thoughts on cloudiness. First of all, the color can give you a clue as to what the problem is. If it's a green-tinted cloudiness, the problem is most likely a bloom of unicellular algae.

If the cloudiness is white, it could be either particulates (like dust from your gravel) or microorganisms. Usually, if particulates are going to cloud your water, it will happen immediately and slowly disappear (over a week or so). If the cloudiness develops over the course of some time, it generally means there is an abundance of some of the normal microorganisms that inhabit our tank. There are lots of these critters, and they feed on each other, so if one populations grows quicker than another, you get a bloom that makes the water look cloudy.

Please note that these microbes are NOT the same ones that we refer to as the beneficial bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite. Therefore, you can have a white-water outbreak that has no bearing on the tank's cycle. Often, the cloudiness occurs early in a tank's life, so it's easy to think that it's related to the cycle, but it's independent. I've had fully cycled tanks that, for some reason, developed cloudiness but suffered no loss of the biofilter.

If you have white water that seems to fit the description of a microorganism bloom, the best treatment is to do nothing. It will go away. You can change the water, but you'll just reduce the number of organisms in the water column, and they'll quickly reproduce and the cloudiness will return. You really just need to wait for the populations of organisms to come into balance and all will clear up.

Hope this is helpful... don't be afraid to come back and let us know if you need assistance with cycling questions.

Jim


First all I'd like to thank all guys for the helpful advice. The white cloudlyness happened immediately and is now going away slowly. At least I think it's going away slowly. It's been about 3 days now that it has been cloudy. It seems as though it's slowly going away though. I will just wait until things clear up before I take further action. I plan on getting 1 australian gold arowana for the tank. Is there anything else I should know before I add the guy in there?

[rjl420]

well, first off I don't think a 60 gallon tank is anywhere near big enough for an arrowana. they can get upwards of 2 feet long, half the size of your tank lengthwise! anything smaller than a 125 is too small for them IMO.

second, I haven't seen any response to the cycling questions. have you chosen how you want to cycle your tank? I'm a strong advocate of fishless cycling because:

1) it's MUCH faster than traditionally cycling with fish

2) you can stock the tank to its full bio-load RIGHT AWAY instead of adding fish slowly

3) there is NO RISK to any fish

4) no water changes til its finished.

of course you have to stare at an empty tank for a week (maybe a little more) but pateince is a BIG part of fishkeeping.

see the link that Jim posted for more info on fishless cycling

[amuro129]

well i did state that i'm not going to do anything until my tank clears up so that means it's a fishless cycle for me. I'm studying the fishless cycling site now to see exactly what I need to do. as for the arowana, when it gets too big for the tank i'll donate it. I just need some good luck for the time being.

[amuro129]

Okay i've read a few of the fishless cycling sites. I can't say I'm sure on exactly what I need to do. Can someone walk me through it a bit?

[rjl420]

ok. I'm not sure that "donating" the fish when it gets too big is best for the long term, but I don't want to get into that matter ;)

first you will need a test kit. at least one for ammonia and nitrIte. i'd also pick up a nitrAte but it's not as neccessary. basically, all you need to do is go to something like a hardware store that sells ammonium hydroxide. it's basically ammonia and water at a 10% concentration. then add it directly to your tank, little by little until your ammonia test kit reads 5.0 ppm (a little more a litle less is ok, it's just ballpark). once you get the ammonia holding around 5.0 ppm, add just enough ammonia everyday to keep the bacteria fed (I'd guess about 1/4 capfull every day would do good, but YMMV). then monitor your ammonia until it reads 0 ppm. continue adding ammonia at least every other day and begin monitoring your nitrIte level. it will probablly go off the charts or as high as your chart goes. typically, I've found the nitrIte cycle takes almost twice aslong as the ammonia cycle, so be patient and keep monitoring you nitrIte levels. after a little while it will drop like a rock, I've seen it be off the chart one day, and 0 the next.

when you can add ammonia to the tank (somewhat alot) and the next day ammonia and nitrIte test at 0 ppm, your cycle is complete, and all that is neccessary is a LARGE water change to dilute the nitrAtes. then you can add all the proposed inhabitants to your tank at once.

I really wish you'd reconsider your stocking and/or tank choice. it will only be a problem down the line, and I'm just trying to prevent a possible disaster.

[amuro129]

thanks for the help jrl... I wish I could afford a bigger tank but this one already cleared out my pocket. Which inhabitants would you consider me getting?

again thanks for your help. i have a question.

i put the test kit in the water while i'm adding the ammonia? or do i test it after the ammonia has settled in for a while?

also, when am i supposed to add the amquel?

[rjl420]

there is a lot you can do with a 60 gallon tank, you can post a topic in general freshwater for stocking ideas but I prefer to pick a fish that you REALLY like and build around it.

I'm sorry, i should have mentioned that you should wait at least 4 hours before testing the water to give the amminia a chance to disipate. otherwise you may get false readings. good question.

as for the AmQuel. i'm not a big fan of it, I prefer straight chlorine/chloramine remover. if it's all you have, treat the tank before adding the ammonia to remove the chlorine and/or chloramine. you shouldn't need it again until the fishless cycle is complete and then treat the water before you add it to your tank during the final water change (and any other water changes in the future).

[famman]

rjl is giving you some good advice. As for fish for your awesome 60 gal, the PH of your local water can make that choice easier. Changing the ph of your tank water is a real hassle. A ph test kit is pretty cheap even though you only use it once in a while.
For example, if you have high ph certain african lake chiclids are quite spectacular and within your tank size.
If you have lower ph (say 6 ish), that might give you an opportunity to do discus, a somewhat difficult but highly prized fish.
good luck
:)

[amuro129]

Originally posted by rjl420
there is a lot you can do with a 60 gallon tank, you can post a topic in general freshwater for stocking ideas but I prefer to pick a fish that you REALLY like and build around it.

I'm sorry, i should have mentioned that you should wait at least 4 hours before testing the water to give the amminia a chance to disipate. otherwise you may get false readings. good question.

as for the AmQuel. i'm not a big fan of it, I prefer straight chlorine/chloramine remover. if it's all you have, treat the tank before adding the ammonia to remove the chlorine and/or chloramine. you shouldn't need it again until the fishless cycle is complete and then treat the water before you add it to your tank during the final water change (and any other water changes in the future).


i REALLY REALLY like arowanas :(


as for discus I don't think i'm ready for those yet.

i was thinking i could get a few schools of smaller fish.. but i'll worry about the fishes after my tank has been cycled. I'm going out to buy a test kit and ammonia today. thanks for you help guys.

i

[JSchmidt]

I think Amquel is fine, but it can confuse things a bit when your cycling the tank, because it will produce false readings on certain types of ammonia tests. For general use, Amquel is great if you have water than has chloramines added. Chloramines are formed by combining chlorine and ammonia, and when a standard dechlorinator/dechloriminator is used, the chlorine is neutralized but the ammonia is freed. Some people don't think the amount of ammonia is worth worrying about -- in my water, I get readings of 1 ppm or so after dechlorimating. If you prefer to not expose your fish to any ammonia, then Amquel or similar products are fine for treating tap water.

If your tap water is only treated with chlorine, any dechlorinator will do the trick.

Here's how I fishless cycle.

I add enough ammonia to bring the tank concentration to about 5 ppm. (You need to experiment with that to figure out how much is needed. As noted, give the ammonia time to dissipate after adding it, or stir vigorously. It diffuses quite quickly in water.)

Every day at about the same time, I measure the ammonia concentration and add enough to bring it back up to 5 ppm.

I then continue that until no ammonia or nitrites show up after 24 hours. Any tank that can process 5 ppm ammonia to zero ammonia/nitrites in 24 hours has a big enough biofilter to handle just about any stocking level.

After that, I do a 99% water change, adjust the heater and check it in 24 hours, then add fish.

Some things that can speed up the process:
- Add bacteria by getting filter squeezings, gravel, etc. from known-healthy tanks. The more frequently you innoculate the tank, the shorter the cycle. (Don't worry if you're also adding fish poop or crud; you can do a thorough vacuuming after the cycle is finished, before you add fish.)
- Crank up the heat to 85 degrees or so; you'll accelerate the bacteria's metabolism, including reproduction.
- Don't clean the filter or change media for a while. Most of your beneficial bacteria will be clinging to them.

HTH,
Jim

[amuro129]

Is it okay if i use hose water to do the water change after the cycle? Will the chlorine kill all my good bacteria?

[rjl420]

for the water change after your cycle finishes, I would take extra care not to introduce chlorine/chloramine. since you going to be doing such a large water change, use a bucket the first time. the water from the hose is fine, but the chlorine/chrloramine needs to be removed/neutralized before being added to the tank so that you don't disturb the new benificial bacteria (BB).

after that, you can use the hose and just add chlorine remover a little before, during and after.

and one more word of advice. when cleaning/changing your filter pads, try to clean/remove only one at a time; or use 2 seperate filters and clean only one at a time so that you don't dont disturb you BB bed. just remembered you had a fluval. I would recomend adding a HOB filter down the line (something like an AC200) for mechanical filtration, or add a sponge over the intake of the fluval for added mechanical so that you don't need to tear apart your canister too often.

[amuro129]

okay so i put the hose water into a bucket, add a little amquel and mix it up a bit then dump it into the tank correct?


and for the water changes thereafter i just add amquel into the tank before i put hose water in the tank, use the amquel again during i'm filling the tank with water, and add even more amquel after i'm done.

did i get that right? sorry i just want to be sure.

[rjl420]

yea, you got it. the only reason your taking extra care for the first water change is because your changing SO MUCH water, that you don't want to risk damaging the BB bed. after that you should only be changing 20-30% at a time so it won't be as drastic.

[JSchmidt]

I disagree that you need to treat the water first for the initial water change. If you add your Amquel (or other dechlorinator) before refilling the tank, the chlorine won't be around long enough to harm your bacteria. If you let the chlorinated (or chloriminated) water sit in there for a couple of hours, that might be different...

I have aging tanks for treating my water, which has chloramine. These aging tanks have a modest bacterial colony that processes the ammonia released when I add sodium thiosulfate to neutralize the chlorine. When I refill my aging tanks, I add water, then add the dechlorinator when the tank is full. I suffer no loss of biofilter when doing this.

I don't think adding tap water & dechlorinator simultaneously will have any negative effects on your biofilter. If you add the dechlor first, and then the water, the chlorine will not around for more than a few moments. Don't believe it? Buy a chlorine/chloramine test and see for yourself.

HTH,
Jim

[wetmanNY]

lurking

Amuro, you're getting excellemt advice here. As for keeping an Arowana in an aquarium, have you seen the footage of a fullgrown Arowana leaping four feet out of the water to snatch an insect? Beautiful. Not a creature to cage in an aquarium!

Small fish in big tanks: wonderful! Pretty big fish in humungous tanks: that's good too!

[amuro129]

Thanks all. I really appreciate the advice.

Funny thing is that when I asked for ammonia at the LFS, the clerk gave me a weird look and asked me why. I said I needed to cycle the tank and get some bacteria growth. She said no no that's all wrong you need stress zyme for bacteria growth. I said I'll pass. I didn't much feel like explaining the the process of fishless cycling. So I left. Just thought I'd share the experience.

[amuro129]

I just ran a test on my water, I HAVEN'T yet put any ammonia in. My pH is 7.8, ammonia is 0ppm, nitrite is 0ppm.

is this normal?

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by amuro129
Thanks all. I really appreciate the advice.

Funny thing is that when I asked for ammonia at the LFS, the clerk gave me a weird look and asked me why. I said I needed to cycle the tank and get some bacteria growth. She said no no that's all wrong you need stress zyme for bacteria growth. I said I'll pass. I didn't much feel like explaining the the process of fishless cycling. So I left. Just thought I'd share the experience.

Welcome to the world of informed fishkeeping! You get a gold star for not wavering in the face of a pointless Stresszyme recommendation! Kudos to you!

Jim

[rjl420]

Originally posted by amuro129
I just ran a test on my water, I HAVEN'T yet put any ammonia in. My pH is 7.8, ammonia is 0ppm, nitrite is 0ppm.

is this normal?

yep, that's normal. the pH might drop while your cycling though, so you might want to keep an eye on it if you have a specific target (read: test again when the cycle is done). other than that, looks good!

I had the same experience asking my LFS for ammonia, "no, you don't want to put ammonia in your tank, but we have this ammonia remover you might be interested in?"

"um, no thanks" :D

[amuro129]

okay guys, my tank is officially cycled. ammonia 0, nitrite 0 .

thanks for all your help !